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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 160415 times)

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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #425 on: February 20, 2016, 09:19:45 am »
+1

Oooops, forgot to exchange the $1 in the card template for a ...
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #426 on: February 20, 2016, 12:43:02 pm »
+1


Well, I just had a thought. You have all your season cards, but what about a non-season card that does stuff when you have seasons? Like:
Quote
Harvest Village-$4
+1 card
+2 actions
You may discard a season card. If you do, +1 card
Or maybe an attack that deals with season cards but is not necessarily a season card itself. like:
Quote
Forest Bandits-$3
+$2
Each other player may discard a season card. Each player that does not discards down to three cards in hand
Just some ideas. Granted, Forest bandits is a cheap militia in kingdoms without season cards, but it's just something I came up off the top of my head. Something like that might be interesting to play around with. Also, I would like to add that this could easily be expanded upon and turned into a full 25 card expansion.

This is not a bad idea! We never actually thought about cards that interact with Season cards without being Season cards. However, those two particular card categories are already represented in our set (the last card is going to be, at least partially, a discard attack).

I wasn't necessarily saying that those cards specifically should be added, I was just coming up with a few quick cards to demonstrate my ideas.

Also we're quite happy with Seasons being a small expansion.

That is perfectly fine, I was just mentioning it as a possibility. And I do realize this post was a bit defensive, and I apologize, I have a tendency to do that when I'm online.
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BlackHole

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #427 on: February 21, 2016, 04:09:53 pm »
+6

Yey guys my fist post in this forum! ;D ;D

Im following this thread since the beginning and was looking forward to every new card is this set :)
I really like you card compositon so far, the thematical relation is great and I look forward to the card testing - especially the new dimension of strategic depth!
And the pictures are all pretty nice! Good job you two! ;)
Ok now thats enough of praise maybe i have a bit criticism for you ;) :D

For everyone who doesnt have the time to read over my opinion on the older cards: just go over to the next paragraph ;)
Sojourner: actually a nice idea, though im not sure at the pricepoint it seems pretty strong in fall, but at least the order of the bonuses fits good!
Bailiff: nice idea, but especially the second part is, as never known before, really hard to compare to other cards, further complicated through the season changing thing
Snow Witch: the thematical relation ist soooo nice, and in my view its good balanced too. Of couse you never have to underestimate the first player advantege at this point, I thougt quite a while about it but found no good solution and would play with the card anyway all the time
Student: one of my favourites, though i think i´d let you put the card token erlier on the card, because otherwise it takes such a long time to reach a card thats actually better than a village, espeially if you miss the spring bonus, which is likeley if you dont open with it. As a bad opener and the long long term bulid time to get it running, I think I would prefer the version with this order: Buy, $, Action, Card. I also like the synergie with Plantation but well that card doubles the fun of the whole set doesnt it? ;D ;D ;D
Sanitarium: another top idea which isnt realised in the offical sets, i especially like the mechanic and strategie of the gain part.
Ballroom: also one of my favourites, it was really fun to follow the discussion about that one, and I was thinking about the comparion with a board of throne room and BoM all the time and came out with the thought that ballroom is stronger, at least in average. :) :)
Plantation: the mechanical star so far for me, it synergises well with itsself, but with any other seasons card its just amazing! All the cool synergies whith every single other card in this set... But actually i think you could buff it a bit, because the on-buy-effect, though it could be pretty strong could be pretty annoying too, actually it could be used as an attack too! Look at the combination with a card like restore and you just buy a plantation so your opponent couldnt trash his gold into a province any more! At least I can imagine wars between a player going for plantation and one initially not going for it, leading to a massive plantation pile drain and season confusing, which, though it seems funny not necessarily counts towards the 5$ price point. What about substituting the +1$ in Summer and Winter whith +2$ or at most +1$, +1Buy? That should really make the difference between a decent and a great 5$ card!
Restore: on point I dont like with that one is the one that it makes a 5/2 split so much stronger. Apart from that I would still consider it a strong 5$ but with the season-depending nerf it seems still not op. Watch out for the time when the leaf is getting green again!  ;)
Trade Port: this one is pretty good two, for me this ones balace is ok. :)
Timberland: Of cause any set needs a Alt-VP card! :D I prefer the one for 7 because its much simpler and accelerates the game in contrdiction to the cheaper one, and I could imagine some situations in which I would just buy a duchy because of reliability. This cheaper one also has a devastating synergy with plantation. :o
Wayfare: I have to think about that one again ???, but a first sight i would consider I really strong for 4$, of course the timing is really important. But think about a 4/3 split with a Wayfare in turn one!! Wouldnt your deck get a really huge boost with that?! Maybe that is a bit to strong... :o :o

So here my second issue:
Quote
from Doom_Shark
on: February 20, 2016, 12:26:06 am

Well, I just had a thought. You have all your season cards, but what about a non-season card that does stuff when you have seasons? Like:
Quote

    Harvest Village-$4
    +1 card
    +2 actions
    You may discard a season card. If you do, +1 card

Or maybe an attack that deals with season cards but is not necessarily a season card itself. like:
Quote

    Forest Bandits-$3
    +$2
    Each other player may discard a season card. Each player that does not discards down to three cards in hand
At first: nice ideas of cause, I always like new mechanics! :)
But I have one big issue, which often leads to conflics within my own ideas and is actually one of the core rules for me when creating my own cards, or just some overall new mechanics with a rough set of possible cards. In my opinion all cards that you dont use just in case of using it with another 'trigger'-card (like urchin-mercenery) or come in play through such things, should reach a recent power level on their own and without much variation, and a card like your harvest village is just an overpriced village in like 80% of the games, at least if you play a random game with all offical cards. But I think the ideas came just to your head didnt they? So dont take this so seriosly, it was just a good opportunity to say that about creating cards of your own!  :)

PS: Sry for the typos and the lengthy sentences Im producing all the time not such a good trait of mine 8)

EDIT: sry for messing up the quote I didnt find the right way :D
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 10:40:02 am by BlackHole »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #428 on: February 22, 2016, 08:37:57 am »
+2

Yey guys my fist post in this forum! ;D ;D

Im following this thread since the beginning and was looking forward to every new card is this set :)
I really like you card compositon so far, the thematical relation is great and I look forward to the card testing - especially the new dimension of strategic depth!
And the pictures are all pretty nice! Good job you two! ;)
Ok now thats enough of praise maybe i have a bit criticism for you ;) :D

Thank you very much! I'm glad we could allure you to make your first post in our thread :)

Sojourner: actually a nice idea, though im not sure at the pricepoint it seems pretty strong in fall, but at least the order of the bonuses fits good!
In general it should be noted that all of the presented cards (except for Timberland with varying VP values) have been tested and found functional. Yes, Sojourner's strong for $2 but it's still a one-shot and it's hard to find comparable original cards so it kind of plays in its own league.

Snow Witch: the thematical relation ist soooo nice, and in my view its good balanced too. Of couse you never have to underestimate the first player advantege at this point, I thougt quite a while about it but found no good solution and would play with the card anyway all the time
This has been criticized before but I don’t quite see how the first player advantage is any higher with Snow Witch than with other cursers. First player enters Fall and puts 3 curses into his opponent’s deck. Then the other player puts 3 curses into first player’s deck immediately after. Why is this problematic?

Student: one of my favourites, though i think i´d let you put the card token erlier on the card, because otherwise it takes such a long time to reach a card thats actually better than a village, espeially if you miss the spring bonus, which is likeley if you dont open with it. As a bad opener and the long long term bulid time to get it running, I think I would prefer the version with this order: Buy, $, Action, Card.
Although the current version of Student works fine, I have to say it doesn’t get bought in about half of the games. When you buy, you usually want it for the +buy, so maybe that bonus should not come in Spring. Or maybe it should. Anyway, we might consider moving the +card to an earlier season. Swapping it with the +$1 is an option.

Plantation: the mechanical star so far for me, it synergises well with itsself, but with any other seasons card its just amazing! All the cool synergies whith every single other card in this set... But actually i think you could buff it a bit, because the on-buy-effect, though it could be pretty strong could be pretty annoying too, actually it could be used as an attack too! Look at the combination with a card like restore and you just buy a plantation so your opponent couldnt trash his gold into a province any more! At least I can imagine wars between a player going for plantation and one initially not going for it, leading to a massive plantation pile drain and season confusing, which, though it seems funny not necessarily counts towards the 5$ price point. What about substituting the +1$ in Summer and Winter whith +2$ or at most +1$, +1Buy? That should really make the difference between a decent and a great 5$ card!
Do you own the Hinterlands expansion? Several cards of that set have costs that don’t seem to fit their respective power when played. That is because you pay, at least partially, for the immediate effect when you gain such a card. Plantation is no different. It comes off a little weak on-play sometimes (although the self-synergy ought not to be ignored) but its on-gain impact is significant and even allows you to assert control over your opponents’ plays. You pay for a bug effect and get a slightly weaker than average card with it. And Plantation is still decent.

Restore: on point I dont like with that one is the one that it makes a 5/2 split so much stronger. Apart from that I would still consider it a strong 5$ but with the season-depending nerf it seems still not op. Watch out for the time when the leaf is getting green again!  ;)
We are currently testing a version that is a Remodel in Spring and Fall, and an Expand in Summer, to avoid the arguably huge difference between a 5/2 and a 4/3 opening. That version seems pretty good and also more adequate in power for $5 so we might soon change Restore officially.

Trade Port: this one is pretty good two, for me this ones balace is ok. :)
Trade Port may be a touch too strong. We would also like it to be more different from Treasury and are testing mechanics that seem novel and interesting. Expect an update to Trade Port eventually.

Timberland: Of cause any set needs a Alt-VP card! :D I prefer the one for 7 because its much simpler and accelerates the game in contrdiction to the cheaper one, and I could imagine some situations in which I would just buy a duchy because of reliability. This cheaper one also has a devastating synergy with plantation. :o
Last time Asper and I talked about it we couldn’t decide which version of Timberland we like better. Both have balancing issues and we found that making a good alt-VP cards is actually really hard! It might take a while before we can say that Timberland is definitely finished.

Wayfare: I have to think about that one again ???, but a first sight i would consider I really strong for 4$, of course the timing is really important. But think about a 4/3 split with a Wayfare in turn!! Wouldnt your deck get a really huge boost with that?! Maybe that is a bit to strong... :o :o
Not sure what you mean by “a 4/3 split with a Wayfare in turn”. If you open Wayfare (Spring)/$4-cost card on 4/3, you have the Wayfare bonus for 3 more turns – granted, a significant boost in Spring. However, if you open $4-cost/$3-cost card and buy Wayfare sometime later, you get one more (potentially) good card into your deck early and have the Wayfare bonus for 5 full turns in another Season. Both options can be very good. It depends largely on the board if and when you want to buy Wayfare to boost which Season.
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BlackHole

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #429 on: February 22, 2016, 09:30:37 am »
+1

Snow Witch: the thematical relation ist soooo nice, and in my view its good balanced too. Of couse you never have to underestimate the first player advantege at this point, I thougt quite a while about it but found no good solution and would play with the card anyway all the time
This has been criticized before but I don’t quite see how the first player advantage is any higher with Snow Witch than with other cursers. First player enters Fall and puts 3 curses into his opponent’s deck. Then the other player puts 3 curses into first player’s deck immediately after. Why is this problematic?

You're right its only a problem when player one manages to play like 7 or more Snow Witches when Fall begings, because a 7/3 curse split isnt that cool (at least for one player) and doesnt occur often when both players are going for Witch or something. Thats why I said I would play with it all the time anyway. ;)

Plantation: the mechanical star so far for me, it synergises well with itsself, but with any other seasons card its just amazing! All the cool synergies whith every single other card in this set... But actually i think you could buff it a bit, because the on-buy-effect, though it could be pretty strong could be pretty annoying too, actually it could be used as an attack too! Look at the combination with a card like restore and you just buy a plantation so your opponent couldnt trash his gold into a province any more! At least I can imagine wars between a player going for plantation and one initially not going for it, leading to a massive plantation pile drain and season confusing, which, though it seems funny not necessarily counts towards the 5$ price point. What about substituting the +1$ in Summer and Winter whith +2$ or at most +1$, +1Buy? That should really make the difference between a decent and a great 5$ card!
Do you own the Hinterlands expansion? Several cards of that set have costs that don’t seem to fit their respective power when played. That is because you pay, at least partially, for the immediate effect when you gain such a card. Plantation is no different. It comes off a little weak on-play sometimes (although the self-synergy ought not to be ignored) but its on-gain impact is significant and even allows you to assert control over your opponents’ plays. You pay for a bug effect and get a slightly weaker than average card with it. And Plantation is still decent.

Of cause I do. ;D
And of cause the comparison with Inn or other cards is, as said in this thread before, obvious. Thats why I pointed out that this effect could be both positiv and negativ, which I think should be seen and maybe also rated differently than on-gain or on-buy effecs that are only 'positiv' (like BV, Inn, Nomad Camp) or 'negativ' (IGG, Noble Brigand). But that doesnt mean the card is bad right now! Is was just an interesting part of the card that should be considered in the discussion.

Wayfare: I have to think about that one again ???, but a first sight i would consider I really strong for 4$, of course the timing is really important. But think about a 4/3 split with a Wayfare in turn!! Wouldnt your deck get a really huge boost with that?! Maybe that is a bit to strong... :o :o
Not sure what you mean by “a 4/3 split with a Wayfare in turn”. If you open Wayfare (Spring)/$4-cost card on 4/3, you have the Wayfare bonus for 3 more turns – granted, a significant boost in Spring. However, if you open $4-cost/$3-cost card and buy Wayfare sometime later, you get one more (potentially) good card into your deck early and have the Wayfare bonus for 5 full turns in another Season. Both options can be very good. It depends largely on the board if and when you want to buy Wayfare to boost which Season.

I forgot the 'one' at that point, corrected it!
I was especially referring to:
Turn 1: 4 Coppers, 1 Estate
4$, buy a Wayfare
Turn 2: 3 Coppers, 2 Estates
4$ (+1$ additionally by drawing another copper, which would be really nice and is for 80% true), buy something else good

The other opening possibilities are ok but not so good.

But that of cause depends on the board (ok but well which opening doesnt depend on the board?;))
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #430 on: February 22, 2016, 10:25:02 am »
+2

While there's some very interesting decisions about where to put your Wayfare token (as well as when to purchase Wayfare), I'm not so sure there's an interesting decision about IF to purchase Wayfare. It sounds like it would be suicide to skip it completely.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #431 on: February 22, 2016, 07:44:48 pm »
+3

While there's some very interesting decisions about where to put your Wayfare token (as well as when to purchase Wayfare), I'm not so sure there's an interesting decision about IF to purchase Wayfare. It sounds like it would be suicide to skip it completely.

I think it would only be a reasonable decision in some games where every gain matters, for example if you have no +Buy. Or with powerful gaining instead of buying power. But it's true, usually you will want to get Wayfare somewhere. Which i think isn't a problem, because it isn't a strategy on its own and there's still a lot of room for decision and doing things wrong. Many cursers are very rarely skippable, and they don't break the game.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #432 on: February 22, 2016, 08:15:31 pm »
+1

While I do see the need to give Events an opportunity cost of buying them (and choosing to not buy them,) I think the whole Seasons mechanic takes it in a different direction with combining Events and Seasons. I could potentially see Wayfare being bought every time, but there is more strategy to this Event in particular (see Raid) than just whether to buy it or not. I think it's a good point, GI, and I agree that it should be considered, but I think there are some other aspects that might see it through having this downside if push comes to shove.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #433 on: February 23, 2016, 03:38:36 am »
+3

This is a great event, very well designed, huzzah!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #434 on: February 23, 2016, 04:18:40 am »
+1

Re: Asper Co0kieL0rd: Snow witch:
I do think Snow witch has a more significant first-player advantage than, say, Witch. Let's consider a case where we both want to junk each other. We'll both have an opportunity to buy witch early, and while you (Player1) will have a chance of playing it earlier than me, it won't affect me as much, since in that window you'll only be able to play one witch, and a single Curse to the discard hurts way less in the short run than a Militia, for example.
So, since it's the early game and everything, your window of advantage (the time where you get to curse me while I can't) gives you the possibility of cursing me once or twice before I can fight back. Sometimes luck of the draw or a better opening may make me hit 5 before you, and then the roles are swapped, ahah.
Now with snow witch, if we've both built an engine, and if we've both chosen that heavy junking is the way to go, by turn 10 we'll probably have built a clunky engine with 3ish SWs. Now, T21, P1 plays his 3-4 snow witches. The window is narrower here, since it most probably only lasts 1 half turn (we both have SW in our deck, so we don't need to hit 5 to start punching). Only, in that window, (which is almost guaranteed to favour P1, unlike Witch's window), P1 gets to curse P2 3-4 times, rather than once or twice. This is bad for the split, but it also means that P2 is most likely to lose pace in the cursing war, since this war is much faster than a Witch war. His engine will suffer, and if on T21 he doesn't manage to play all his SWs (with 3 curses in his deck), then he loses the junk war badly.
So, to summarize:
Witch: the junk war starts when a player hits 5, this slightly favours P1, but since curses are a slow attack, and you can play only one witch/turn at the start of the war, this doesn't set P2 back that much.
Snow Witch: the junk war always starts on P1 turn. Both players start the war with multi-junking power, so the payload/turn is higher, and P1's advantage is most likely to translate in a head start of 3-4 curses, which can significantly slow down P2's cursing.
And, as bonus content: Familiar: the junk war starts when a player is lucky enough to hit a whacky cost, this slightly favours P1, anyway, the window can sometimes be larger than with Witch due to whacky-cost factor. What I want to stress is, this time you can ramp up the curse war much faster (Familiar is a cantrip), so you can easily pack more punch in the window of advantage. Familiar doesn't favour P1 that much, but it is considered a very swingy card.
Even more than Familiar, Snow witch gives a big punch very fast, but this opportunity is reserved to P1.

This is it, sorry for the wall of text, there was probably an easier way to express this but I didn't find it in time. ;D

Edit: so, I think SW can give a significant advantage to P1, should this turn out to be as significant as I suspect it will be, I think the "gain to hand" clause would go a long way to ensure a curse-free engine run to both players (it still guarantees two runs to P1, so I'm not sure it's enough)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 04:26:47 am by Accatitippi »
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #435 on: February 23, 2016, 10:26:44 am »
+1

A timeable Permaduration Village-Lab-Peddler that dies after 5 turns? Seems like it would be a very good 5$ Event.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 10:29:25 am by tristan »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #436 on: February 23, 2016, 11:04:41 am »
+1

A timeable Permaduration Village-Lab-Peddler that dies after 5 turns? Seems like it would be a very good 5$ Event.
Better, do it with one card!  It's a Permaduration-Pathfound-Bazaar!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #437 on: February 23, 2016, 01:23:00 pm »
+1

Re: Asper Co0kieL0rd: Snow witch:

I think i already expressed that i see putting the Curses in hand a reasonable change. Of course P1 still has an advantage there, but man, when doesn't P1 have an advantage? Also, you got a lot of time to prepare for that one turn. Maybe P2 needs to get more SWs, or make sure his discard is near empty, and of course that's not entirely fair, but again, when is Dominion entirely fair?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #438 on: February 23, 2016, 01:50:47 pm »
+2

Re: Asper Co0kieL0rd: Snow witch:
I think i already expressed that i see putting the Curses in hand a reasonable change. Of course P1 still has an advantage there, but man, when doesn't P1 have an advantage? Also, you got a lot of time to prepare for that one turn. Maybe P2 needs to get more SWs, or make sure his discard is near empty, and of course that's not entirely fair, but again, when is Dominion entirely fair?
Sorry, I should have quoted what I was directly replying to:
This has been criticized before but I don’t quite see how the first player advantage is any higher with Snow Witch than with other cursers. First player enters Fall and puts 3 curses into his opponent’s deck. Then the other player puts 3 curses into first player’s deck immediately after. Why is this problematic?
I think it's problematic because chanses are, the other player is not going to put 3 curses into first player's deck.
 :)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #439 on: February 23, 2016, 05:02:55 pm »
+2

I don't remember our games with Snow Witch being so strongly biased towards first player but I can see that in theory and on average this must be true. Maybe it's a bigger deal than I think. So, putting the Curses in hand seems like a pretty good way to mitigate that, at least a little bit. It's only a few more words and not any more complex. It would give players a wider window of opportunity to deal with the incoming Curses. I think we can change Snow Witch that way.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #440 on: February 23, 2016, 06:06:57 pm »
+1

Do keep in mind, though, that putting the Curses in your opponent's hand can be brutal with Ghost Ship, kind of like Torturer.  This could end up giving the first player an even bigger advantage.  Not sure how much that will come up, but it is a consideration. 

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #441 on: February 23, 2016, 07:42:13 pm »
0

Do keep in mind, though, that putting the Curses in your opponent's hand can be brutal with Ghost Ship, kind of like Torturer.  This could end up giving the first player an even bigger advantage.  Not sure how much that will come up, but it is a consideration.

Truth be told, this interaction is ugly and mean, but it reminds me of older things like Militia/Masquerade. Sure, i can decide to discard good stuff in response to such a Militia, but my turn is screwed either way. Here it's a bit worse, admitted, but you still have 10 turns to do your best and keep it from happening. 10 turns, how many Villages and Snow Witches can a fellow get in that time, considering you also have to get that Ghost Ship? 4 Witches, 4 Villages, one Ghost Ship? If everything runs perfect, you can play them all at Fall turn 1, and play the Ghost Ship last, sure. But consider your opponent can also play Ghost Ship to keep you from reaching a state where you can draw your deck, and that you probably shouldn't play Ghost Ship the last turn before Fall (because your opponent will use it to place his SWs ready).

I'm not sure, but i don't think Ghost Ship on its own is worth making it optional to put the card in hand. And that's the most reasonable solution i can think of. After all, it's just one card, and it only increases the P1 advantage if that player acutally manages to pull it off in one specific turn. Of course, i'll agree it might cost you the game. Then again, you could just buy the majority of Snow Witches/Villages to foil this plan, or do whatever other defense the game throws at you.
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #442 on: February 23, 2016, 07:47:31 pm »
+1

Do keep in mind, though, that putting the Curses in your opponent's hand can be brutal with Ghost Ship, kind of like Torturer.  This could end up giving the first player an even bigger advantage.  Not sure how much that will come up, but it is a consideration.
There is one Ghost Ship and a dozen of cards that trash from hand.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #443 on: February 23, 2016, 07:54:06 pm »
0


Well, I just had a thought. You have all your season cards, but what about a non-season card that does stuff when you have seasons? Like:
Quote
Harvest Village-$4
+1 card
+2 actions
You may discard a season card. If you do, +1 card
Or maybe an attack that deals with season cards but is not necessarily a season card itself. like:
Quote
Forest Bandits-$3
+$2
Each other player may discard a season card. Each player that does not discards down to three cards in hand
Just some ideas. Granted, Forest bandits is a cheap militia in kingdoms without season cards, but it's just something I came up off the top of my head. Something like that might be interesting to play around with. Also, I would like to add that this could easily be expanded upon and turned into a full 25 card expansion.

This is not a bad idea! We never actually thought about cards that interact with Season cards without being Season cards. However, those two particular card categories are already represented in our set (the last card is going to be, at least partially, a discard attack).

I wasn't necessarily saying that those cards specifically should be added, I was just coming up with a few quick cards to demonstrate my ideas.

Also we're quite happy with Seasons being a small expansion.

That is perfectly fine, I was just mentioning it as a possibility. And I do realize this post was a bit defensive, and I apologize, I have a tendency to do that when I'm online.

Well, the obvious problem with a non-Season card that interacts with Season cards is that it has to make sure there is a Season card in the kingdom. So, the only way would be a setup clause or a non-supply Season card. But then, the Season Type is mostly a reminder to put the Season Mat out and move its token, and so i think it should be on the supply card. So, a Season supply card with a non-Season non-supply card. Something like a Traveller that changes into one of two cards depending on Season, maybe? Just, i'm not sure the Traveller Mechanic isn't a bit too complicated to combine with Seasons, and well, Student is kind of an "evolving" card already. And for another Season card with some non-supply extra, well, we simply never thought about it and didn't have a compelling idea that made it seem worth. I think a card should be a cool idea that happens to nee an extra pile, not the wish to have extra piles and looking for a way to get there.

Last option, a setup clause, but man, that would mean having one of those few cards always in the same game with this one, i'm not sure how i feel about that. Or maybe give another card the Season type? But all of this sounds like it isn't worth the effort. Lastly, the option to make a card that can care for Seasons, but doesn't mind if there are no cards like that, similar to Apprentice. There might be something here, but i think if a card would be fine without naming Seasons, it should not name Seasons. And a card that requires a Season card but does nothing to ensure it's there, well, i think i can be so honest to say i wouldn't want that.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #444 on: February 23, 2016, 09:46:42 pm »
+2

Well, the obvious problem with a non-Season card that interacts with Season cards is that it has to make sure there is a Season card in the kingdom. So, the only way would be a setup clause or a non-supply Season card. But then, the Season Type is mostly a reminder to put the Season Mat out and move its token, and so i think it should be on the supply card. So, a Season supply card with a non-Season non-supply card. Something like a Traveller that changes into one of two cards depending on Season, maybe? Just, i'm not sure the Traveller Mechanic isn't a bit too complicated to combine with Seasons, and well, Student is kind of an "evolving" card already. And for another Season card with some non-supply extra, well, we simply never thought about it and didn't have a compelling idea that made it seem worth. I think a card should be a cool idea that happens to nee an extra pile, not the wish to have extra piles and looking for a way to get there.

Last option, a setup clause, but man, that would mean having one of those few cards always in the same game with this one, i'm not sure how i feel about that. Or maybe give another card the Season type? But all of this sounds like it isn't worth the effort. Lastly, the option to make a card that can care for Seasons, but doesn't mind if there are no cards like that, similar to Apprentice. There might be something here, but i think if a card would be fine without naming Seasons, it should not name Seasons. And a card that requires a Season card but does nothing to ensure it's there, well, i think i can be so honest to say i wouldn't want that.
Never really thought about the need to ensure the existence of a season card when I thought of this. If you do end up expanding this into a full set anyway, even though that was not your original intention, I think the idea is still worth consideration, but the set looks pretty much good as is for being a half-set. So if you don't feel the need for this type of mechanic, that is perfectly fine. I personally would still like to see this expand into a full set (maybe with a season-treasure or something?) but it definitely isn't necessary. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. This will definitely be something to try playing with either way. Thank you for your amazing job on this.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #445 on: February 24, 2016, 01:17:47 pm »
+2

I think we already did most basic things you can do with Seasons, as Seasons are unique mostly in how they time effects, and there are only so many ways to make use of that. Mostly, it's about wanting different things at certain phases of the game. Maybe the set could use a second attack, and, well, we're at it, or another card where effect timing is to your advantage (as on Ballroom, opposed to e.g. Snow Witch or Sanitarium), which we are also working on. It's of course incredibly tempting to just make a card that is four cards, but Sojourner comes close enough to check that from our list, and you really don't want that many of those. The different effects can't be too complex, either, so the number of different cards you can make this way is limited.

Edit: A Season-Reaction might be a thing, but i'm not sure whether that's too complicated...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 01:19:01 pm by Asper »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #446 on: February 24, 2016, 05:16:56 pm »
+1

It's of course incredibly tempting to just make a card that is four cards, but Sojourner comes close enough to check that from our list, and you really don't want that many of those. The different effects can't be too complex, either, so the number of different cards you can make this way is limited.

Once again, something I never really thought of. The added complexity of the different seasons is not something I really thought about when saying that this would work as a full set (Although I'm sure it is definitely do-able)

A Season-Reaction might be a thing, but i'm not sure whether that's too complicated...

I'm sure you already know this, but the best way to find that out is to build it, then playtest it. Personally, I think that would be really interesting. Maybe something watchtower or trading post-ish, with the same base effect of blocking in each season, but with added bonuses that vary with the seasons.

Edit: As for the season-treasure I mentioned earlier, a simple way to do that is to make it a cheap gold in some seasons, and an expensive silver in others. Not sure if that's to OP with Plantation though.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 08:42:36 pm by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #447 on: February 27, 2016, 08:10:42 pm »
+2

Another thing I just thought of: a season-duration with an extra effect if the season changes while it's in play. And another thing you could do with a season-reaction is to make it react to the change in seasons.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #448 on: February 27, 2016, 08:29:07 pm »
+3

Another thing I just thought of: a season-duration with an extra effect if the season changes while it's in play. And another thing you could do with a season-reaction is to make it react to the change in seasons.

It's a cool idea, but the problem is that seasons usually don't change more than 3 times in a game.  If the effect is weak-to-mediocre, then the unreliability is enough that the reaction simply wouldn't matter; from a design perspective, you might as well not include it at all.  But if the effect is strong enough to make the reaction worthwhile, then it becomes swingy.  The difference between a win and a loss may come down to whether you are lucky enough to have the reaction in your hand when the season changes, and there's not a lot you can do to influence that.  Duration works a little better, but not much.  For this concept, a Reserve would probably be the best way to go.

Edit: grammars
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 04:24:52 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #449 on: February 27, 2016, 09:47:39 pm »
+1

Another thing I just thought of: a season-duration with an extra effect if the season changes while it's in play. And another thing you could do with a season-reaction is to make it react to the change in seasons.

It's a cool idea, but the problem is that seasons usually don't change more than 3 times in a game.  If the effect is weak-to-mediocre, then the unreliability is enough that the reaction simply wouldn't matter; from a design perspective, you might as well not include it at all.  But if the effect strong enough to make the reaction worthwhile, then it becomes swingy.  The difference between a win and a loss may come down to whether you are lucky enough to have the reaction in my hand when the season changes, and there's not a lot you can do to influence that.  Duration works a little better, but not much.  For this concept, a Reserve would probably be the best way to go.
Yeah, I guess reserve makes the most sense. Didn't think about the option of reserve cards, since they didn't do that in the set already and I haven't had adventures for very long.

On a different topic, another interesting thing that could be done is a season with a dividing line that changes which season the game starts in. Granted, it doesn't affect much if that were the only season card in a game, but that could get really interesting when other seasons are in the game with it. But it's also something that could make things more/less powerful, like making snow witch take shorter/longer to start cursing.
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