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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 160411 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #350 on: February 05, 2016, 09:52:27 am »
+3

This is valid, but it could also be a valid view that what happens with Develop is that you fail you evaluate what "costing 1 less" means when a card costs $0.
That's true. I almost said "or else $1 less than $0 is an undefined cost." (The rulebook uses the negative cost interpretation, for what it's worth.)

Yeah, looking at the official FAQ for Develop, it seems clear. You try and fail to gain a $-1. This is different from "you try and fail to evaluate 1 less than 0".

On the other hand, that FAQ does still say something... it says that a card with cost $-1 can't exist. If it ever did, of if a card were ever reduced to cost $-1, then suddenly the Develop FAQ doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't say "you try and fail to gain a $-1, assuming there is no $-1 in the supply".
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sudgy

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #351 on: February 05, 2016, 07:48:16 pm »
+2

This is valid, but it could also be a valid view that what happens with Develop is that you fail you evaluate what "costing 1 less" means when a card costs $0.
That's true. I almost said "or else $1 less than $0 is an undefined cost." (The rulebook uses the negative cost interpretation, for what it's worth.)

Yeah, looking at the official FAQ for Develop, it seems clear. You try and fail to gain a $-1. This is different from "you try and fail to evaluate 1 less than 0".

On the other hand, that FAQ does still say something... it says that a card with cost $-1 can't exist. If it ever did, of if a card were ever reduced to cost $-1, then suddenly the Develop FAQ doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't say "you try and fail to gain a $-1, assuming there is no $-1 in the supply".

Donald has said that FAQs aren't the law though, so I don't think that's stopping anything from costing $-1.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #352 on: February 05, 2016, 09:36:20 pm »
+3

This is valid, but it could also be a valid view that what happens with Develop is that you fail you evaluate what "costing 1 less" means when a card costs $0.
That's true. I almost said "or else $1 less than $0 is an undefined cost." (The rulebook uses the negative cost interpretation, for what it's worth.)

Yeah, looking at the official FAQ for Develop, it seems clear. You try and fail to gain a $-1. This is different from "you try and fail to evaluate 1 less than 0".

On the other hand, that FAQ does still say something... it says that a card with cost $-1 can't exist. If it ever did, of if a card were ever reduced to cost $-1, then suddenly the Develop FAQ doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't say "you try and fail to gain a $-1, assuming there is no $-1 in the supply".

Donald has said that FAQs aren't the law though, so I don't think that's stopping anything from costing $-1.

The FAQ doesn't. But it's a very bad idea to have such a card.

I mean, i'm not Donald X, i can't just take a look into his mind either, but if i was the creator of Dominion, i'd be damned to make a card costing negative coins. Even as i'm not the creator of Dominion, i'll take the freedom to say i firmly believe such a card will never be a part of official Dominion, and neither will it be a card i do.

If you really want something that gives you back money when you buy it, just have it cost $0 and give +$1 on buy. That works just as well for most cases where negative costs would be interesting, and avoids weirdness with Salvager, Apprentice, Bridge, Bishop, etc... Seriously, how do you draw -1 Card? How do you get -1VP (especially if you have no token yet?). Does Bridge increase the card's cost when played?
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sudgy

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #353 on: February 05, 2016, 10:20:20 pm »
+2

I wasn't saying it was a good idea; it's a horrible idea.  I was just saying Develop's FAQ doesn't say anything against it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #354 on: February 06, 2016, 05:42:22 am »
0

I wasn't saying it was a good idea; it's a horrible idea.  I was just saying Develop's FAQ doesn't say anything against it.

I thought your point was that even though Develop's FAQ does say something against it, such a card could still exist. As such a card existing would lead to rules inconsistencies and it could be implemented differently to avoid those, either way, i felt that that wasn' true.

Either way, when my exams are over, CL and i will certainly talk about alternative wordings.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #355 on: February 06, 2016, 11:27:04 am »
+2

How do you get -1VP (especially if you have no token yet?).
Gain a Curse.  :P

Yeah, my view is that Dominion understands what negative coin costs are, and if instructions produce one, it knows how to compare it with other costs (and maybe even do arithmetic with it), but it strives to prevent a negative coin cost from ever appearing on an actual card.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 11:34:39 am by chipperMDW »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #356 on: February 10, 2016, 06:56:57 pm »
+3

Humble excuses, dear forumites, we are going to take a few days until we reveal the next (possibly final?) Season card we have. A few things we talked about before are changing, so next up won't be a Looter, after all. Either way, here's a little thing:



Co0kieL0rd and i use this reminder to track which of us is the last in play order when we play with Season cards. It's not actually part of the rules, but it helps remembering to move the token. You may say it's too colorful for Dominion, but if it blended in it wouldn't do a good job as a reminder, would it?
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #357 on: February 12, 2016, 08:19:19 pm »
+11

Sorry for the longer-than-usual break. This revelation is all the bigger!



Observant followers of this thread might have noticed the lack of big terminal draw in this set. Of course we have such a card! Plantation is at your service, cultivating exotic crops in the sweltering south to feed the wealthy upper class in the north. Due to the warm climate and the lack of annual seasons they can harvest twice a year, resulting in high- and low-profit periods.

Hence in Spring and Fall Plantation is barely even better than a Smithy but in the other Seasons its yield and flexibility are boosted. The best part is you can accelerate your Plantations by gaining more Plantations. Also the presence of this card in a Kingdom throws all regular deliberation and long-term planning regarding other Season cards out of the window. This is the crazy combo card of the set that will warp every game.
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Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #358 on: February 12, 2016, 10:23:01 pm »
+3

Should be forward, not forth?  If that's too long, I think "ahead" would still work better than forth.

I was hoping that there would be a season-manipulation card.  Not sure if it totally works with the theme here (maybe something about weather prediction instead? or how about Groundhog?) but I like it.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #359 on: February 12, 2016, 11:51:55 pm »
+3

Forth is fine. But more typical to put back first, forth second.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #360 on: February 12, 2016, 11:57:29 pm »
+2

I like "move the marker back or ahead" if we are openly discussing the written version.
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461.weavile

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #361 on: February 13, 2016, 12:32:24 am »
+2

I haven't commented here yet, but I've been browsing for a little while and am (and have been) very excited to read these cards, especially with all the comments I received on my own fan cards. I'll go backwards I suppose.

Plantation is certainly a new flavor, even from the other cards in this set. The separation of the effect by a season either way is a nice touch and the instant season-change appears well matched with the card's effect. One thing I think is unclear is where to put the marker; does it go to the beginning of the season? If it's moving exactly 5 spaces, I personally would prefer to say "5 spaces" instead.

My only concern for Timberland (B) is the learning curve. The effect and mechanic are exciting and worthwhile, but would there be much AP before the game trying to estimate which season it will end in, then planning accordingly, then your plan effecting your estimation of which season it will end in? What about some people knowing how many rounds an average game will take and some people not. This could be a non-issue of course. I'm sure there are people which will either buy it or not, independent of how long the game might take, and just one game with a Season card will give players a ballpark of how long a card will make a game. I might change my mind if I would actually play with it, but that was my first impression.

I think the current order for Student is appropriate, especially considering the drawback of not beginning in Spring. Worker's Village is still a fine consolation prize for missing Spring. They say hindsight is 20/20. I think the comedy of trying to put all the counters on one pile is incentive enough to buy the card. It's almost too bad you didn't fit the Trashing and Journey tokens into it somehow. XD

I have to say that I'm surprised that, in all the discussion of Trade Port, and all the comparisons drawn, nobody described an interaction with Throne Room. If you compare anything in the scope of Throne Room, I'd say that Trade Port is clearly worse. You have only 1 chance for Throne Room and Trade Port to collide, and even if they do, you lose the Throne Room. With the non-terminals previously compared to, you're likely to have many [card] to easily collide with Throne Room, and you still have the Throne Room to use in other cases. Especially with the cantrips, you get your 2 played cards replaced in your hand, split actions, and whatever other bonuses, but with a Trade Port, you lose the Throne Room, your current turn is just 3 cards, and you've gotten 1 more coin per turn - unless you were actually going for 3 buys per turn. Either way, it would be way better to actually get a second Trade Port instead of trying to Throne Room it: you still lose 2 cards, but they don't have to collide, and you still get your 2 coins and 2 buys. Am I way off base here?

There isn't much I can say that hasn't already been said, and I don't feel like starting a vote.

I'm also curious... at the beginning, 12 or 13 cards was the set size, but if this is the last card, then we only have 10. And what of this mysterious Event we heard of? Perhaps you were just being literal by saying it was the last "card" and the event will still show up, but were the other 2.5 cards so bad as to be cut before there was any feedback? Perhaps it's merely an Alchemy situation and the remaining two aren't Season type, but will still show up.

Are you still looking for TTS players?
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #362 on: February 13, 2016, 05:39:17 am »
+2

Thanks a lot for your elaborate feedback. I'm on a bus trip right now so I'll just give some quick responses. 1 "section" is only one fifth of a season, otherwise plantation would probably be broken. We will replace the word "forth" with ahead or forward.
There's still at least one more card and an event coming up. However we took out one card and are currently llooking for a good replacement. And the second season  attack card has been reworked but needs testing before we release it.
I personally would love to play more dominion games with fan cards of any kind and we would be happy to playtest season cards in more 3+ player games on TTS. You can PM me if you'd like to play some time :)
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #363 on: February 13, 2016, 10:25:15 am »
0

I have to say that I'm surprised that, in all the discussion of Trade Port, and all the comparisons drawn, nobody described an interaction with Throne Room. If you compare anything in the scope of Throne Room, I'd say that Trade Port is clearly worse. You have only 1 chance for Throne Room and Trade Port to collide, and even if they do, you lose the Throne Room. With the non-terminals previously compared to, you're likely to have many [card] to easily collide with Throne Room, and you still have the Throne Room to use in other cases. Especially with the cantrips, you get your 2 played cards replaced in your hand, split actions, and whatever other bonuses, but with a Trade Port, you lose the Throne Room, your current turn is just 3 cards, and you've gotten 1 more coin per turn - unless you were actually going for 3 buys per turn. Either way, it would be way better to actually get a second Trade Port instead of trying to Throne Room it: you still lose 2 cards, but they don't have to collide, and you still get your 2 coins and 2 buys. Am I way off base here?

Well, Throne Room doesn't "need" to collide with Trade Port. It can collide with any card it happens to collide with. Unlike when you buy two Trade Ports, having both TR and Trade Port in the same hand is actually an advantage (you might not have the actions to play both). If you draw your Trade Port without Throne Room, its +Buy and coin will help you pick up more action cards to double-play with TR, and of course, TR costs less than Trade Port. TR even stays useful when Trade Port stops being useful. Personally, i think TP interacts better with TR than Treasury does.
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #364 on: February 14, 2016, 01:21:40 am »
+3

Plantation seems a bit weak to me.

You prefer on average "+3 Cards" over "+2 Cards, +1$" so half of the time it is weaker than Smithy. "+3 cards, +1$" (which again is on average preferred over the other option  "+2 Cards, +2$") is only a tiny bit better than Smithy and in my opinion weaker than all the other 5$ terminal drawers (except for perhaps Journeyman).

I think that the card has to be significantly stronger in Summer and Winter to justify a price of 5$.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:22:44 am by tristan »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #365 on: February 14, 2016, 03:00:48 am »
+1

I agree with tristan on this one, it is a lot worse in spring and fall, I would even argue that it's worse than Oracle there. In Summer/Winter is not even much better than the 5-card drawers. It really needs something else to justify costing 5. (Giving it +action would make it hilarious by the way). Or it could simply cost 4.
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461.weavile

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #366 on: February 14, 2016, 04:40:52 am »
+3

[Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:] This probably isn't the best defense for the card, but the on-gain effect is probably what pushes it over to 5. Think of Inn 90% of the time I wouldn't buy the top for (5), but the bottom is what really causes you to pay for it. There are similar situations with Ill-Gotten Gains and Nomad Camp; honestly, how many times would you buy a woodcutter for 4? That extra coin is like a mandatory overpay.

On a slightly smaller relationship, look at Baker; by itself, it's probably not worth 5. I certainly think it's too strong for 4, but I think 5 is too weak sometimes. The little bonus part at the bottom really seals it in at 5 to prevent you from buying 2 at the beginning of the game. DXV said that Throne Room had a similar issue. Throne Room was balanced at 4, but opening 2 Throne Rooms (while seeming silly) can be dangerous on certain boards. Sometimes the mechanic is too powerful to be cheaper, and the only way to do it is to make it expensive.

It's not strictly better than Smithy, but imagine that one of the 3 cards every time you play a Smithy is a Copper. Now you have Plantation in Spring and Fall. Add on the on-gain bonus, it's looking like a really good 4-cost card. Give it a bonus half the time (really, really, super-rough estimate there) and it's probably going to be way too good for just 4, unless you want some drawback on it - but then we ("we" is also a rough estimate) have to add even more words.

It might not make the cut and be a really weak 5-cost. It could potentially have the bottom part activate on both gain AND trash. That might make it more expensive. Just a new idea that I don't know I've seen before. (Feel free to flat-out steal that idea Asper/Cookie, it's not my best, but it's something. XD) It's really a marginal change - look at Squire which would probably still cost 2 without that bottom bonus.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #367 on: February 14, 2016, 06:50:23 am »
0

Just for info, at one point i suggested to simply make Plantation +3 cards or +4 cards. It was discarded for being too bland.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #368 on: February 14, 2016, 07:10:36 am »
+3

I think that in particular as the only Season card in a Kingdom it's worse than most other 5c terminal draw cards, except maybe if you're going for BM-terminal draw.
Would +2/4 cards be too powerful for 4c? A bigger seasonal difference will make the on-buy stronger, and maybe make the card less bland than +3/4?
Anyway, it is looks good (albeit quite weak) as-is, since the on-gain will make it so that you see the strong version more often than the weak one.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 07:48:05 am by Accatitippi »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #369 on: February 14, 2016, 07:44:34 am »
+1

The way I see this card: The on-gain ability makes this card interesting, which is why you want people to get altleast a few of them. In other words, this card should promote engine play because in BM games the season-tweaking doesn't have a great impact.

So how do you get people to play engine with this card? Not with +2cards. So in a mirror, where both people but the marker back and stay in the Summer forever, this probably works. But the non-engine player could just completely mess this up easily, so it's probably not worth the risk to play an engine with this card a lot of the times since the good effect is barely better than a Smithy and costs 5 instead 4.

This is why I suggested to buff the card in its seasonal times. Maybe even give it +action during the harvest, which makes the difference between the seasons the most significant. Which I actually like since you can really mess someone up who relies on them staying non-terminal.

@461.weavile: I agree that you have to consider the on-gain efffect aswell, but Inn doesn't hurt you nearly as much gaining it as this card does (due to being non-terminal)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #370 on: February 14, 2016, 11:05:36 am »
+4

I think you guys are underestimating the on-play effect in Summer and Winter.  The extra coin over Smithy is useful and the flexibility of choosing coin instead of card has some hidden power there. It's not crazy super awesome, but it seems solid enough to me.  They can't all be the best card.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #371 on: February 15, 2016, 01:59:25 am »
+1

It's not crazy super awesome, but it seems solid enough to me.  They can't all be the best card.
You could argue that Torturer, Margrave adn Catacombs are overpowered but I cannot fathom a situation in which I'd pick Plantation over any 5$ terminal drawers except for perhaps Journeyman.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #372 on: February 15, 2016, 02:38:21 am »
+1

It's not crazy super awesome, but it seems solid enough to me.  They can't all be the best card.
You could argue that Torturer, Margrave adn Catacombs are overpowered but I cannot fathom a situation in which I'd pick Plantation over any 5$ terminal drawers except for perhaps Journeyman.

Really, you can't fathom a situation?  Torturer: the curses are out.  Margrave: you already have a discard attack and +buy.  Catacombs: you're thin enough you don't need the extra sifting.

I think +3 cards, +$1 would be a reasonably good $5, and I think Plantation is a little worse than that, so it might be on the weak side, but it's not awful compared to other terminal draw $5's.
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #373 on: February 15, 2016, 02:51:49 am »
+1

It's not crazy super awesome, but it seems solid enough to me.  They can't all be the best card.
You could argue that Torturer, Margrave adn Catacombs are overpowered but I cannot fathom a situation in which I'd pick Plantation over any 5$ terminal drawers except for perhaps Journeyman.

Really, you can't fathom a situation?  Torturer: the curses are out.  Margrave: you already have a discard attack and +buy.  Catacombs: you're thin enough you don't need the extra sifting.

I think +3 cards, +$1 would be a reasonably good $5, and I think Plantation is a little worse than that, so it might be on the weak side, but it's not awful compared to other terminal draw $5's.
Little worse than that? For nearly (due to the season control thingy) half of the time it is +2 Cards, 1$. ^^
As drsteelhammer pointed out, this is probably on average worse than Oracle.

About your comparisons with Torturer and Margrave. Torturer is still a Smithy when Curses are out whereas Plantation is nearly half of the time worse than a Smithy. About Margrave, once you have 2 or 3 of them you do indeed rather want another terminal draw lest you help your opponent via playing two of them in one turn.

These are saturation effects though, on average both Torturer and Margrave are still far better than Plantation.

As others have pointed out, the interesting and only strong thing about this card is the season control element. When you play with several Season cards this on gain ability could make purchasing the card worthwhile. Otherwise it is to Smithy like Mining Village (that you never trash) to Village: you pay more than it is worth but you do not mind because you need that terminal draw.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:04:21 am by tristan »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #374 on: February 15, 2016, 03:03:47 am »
+2

It's not crazy super awesome, but it seems solid enough to me.  They can't all be the best card.
You could argue that Torturer, Margrave adn Catacombs are overpowered but I cannot fathom a situation in which I'd pick Plantation over any 5$ terminal drawers except for perhaps Journeyman.

Really, you can't fathom a situation?  Torturer: the curses are out.  Margrave: you already have a discard attack and +buy.  Catacombs: you're thin enough you don't need the extra sifting.

I think +3 cards, +$1 would be a reasonably good $5, and I think Plantation is a little worse than that, so it might be on the weak side, but it's not awful compared to other terminal draw $5's.
About your comparisons with Torturer and Margrave. Torturer is still a Smithy when Curses are out whereas Plantation is nearly half of the time worse than a Smithy. About Margrave, once you have 2 or 3 of them you do indeed rather want another terminal draw lest you help your opponent via playing two of them in one turn.

These are saturation effects though, on average both Torturer and Margrave are still far better than Plantation.

Oops, for some reason I was thinking you always got +3 cards and it was the +$1 that went on and off.  Well, I don't think Plantation is much worse than Smithy in Spring/Fall, so I think you'd still take it over a dead Torturer.

But I was responding specifically to "I cannot fathom a situation in which I'd pick Plantation over any $5 terminal drawers..." which is just absurd.  The Margrave thing is an obvious example of situation, and it's common enough that it's pretty easy to fathom.  Maybe you're already building an engine with Mercenary and +buy, so the Margrave attack actually helps them and gives you no additional benefit.
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