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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 160383 times)

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GeneralRamos

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #225 on: January 25, 2016, 04:38:48 pm »
+2

I think starting with the +Card and ending with the +$1 makes more sense. I don't mind picking one up early if it's a cantrip and won't get in the way much, probably moreso than a non-terminal copper. It also makes it more valuable in its village stages, because it's more like a true village at comparable cost.
Even so, it might still feel a tad weak, though I haven't played with it to know if this bears out: its end strength depends on your jumping onto it at the beginning of the game. If you miss spring with it, is it still going to be worth buying for the Winter when you only have Summer+Fall+Winter effects? I almost feel like it should have a bigger payoff to encourage early adoption.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #226 on: January 25, 2016, 04:47:35 pm »
+1

To clarify I understand this right, provided there are not other cards moving your tokens around, the possibility is...
In Spring, +1 Action +$1
In Summer, +2 Actions, +$1
In Fall, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
In Winter, +1 Card, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
And I presume the first time you play it in a given season, you don't get the token bonus because it was not on the student pile when you played it?
If I did read that correctly, then this sounds like the pile will be a mess covered in all those tokens. It might be advisable that they go onto a mat or something.
It seems like a bit of a late bloomer. The effects of the card are not really "worth $3" or more until Winter. And to get it that good you really need to have stuck with it from the start. I like it conceptually, but it feels like it needs a buff.

Yes, you got all that correct.

Power-wise, we tried a few versions of Student and its power changes a lot depending on which is the basic bonus and what you get in which order. Originally, the basic bonus was +$1, and it was otherwise the same, making it a terminal Silver, a Silver, a +Buy Silver, and a Grand Market in the end. Another option i thought about recently would be to swap the Spring and Winter bonuses - it starts as a cantrip, becomes a Village, becomes a Worker's Village, becomes a Village-Market. Maybe that would be better.

I don't know, with the swap it feels you'd have little reason to ever buy a Student if you didn't play one in Spring: Necropolis -> Necropolis+Buy -> One-turn-Fishing-Village+Buy doesn't sound nearly as attractive as Necropolis -> Necropolis+Buy -> Worker's Village (which is pretty yucky on its own). That is, it increases the difference between the early Student and the later Student, at the expense of the latter.

I like it, but my gut tells me it's very weak, comparing unfavourably to all other villages, including Hamlet and CotR which are cheaper.
The fact is, if there are better openers (and I'm afraid there will often be), I'll get those, and then ignore Students for the rest of the game, unless I'm really desperate for actions.

My suggestion is swapping Fall with Winter, making it:
Spring +coin
Summer +Action
Fall +Card
Winter +Buy

This way your Student Engine will start working significantly earlier, and I might still buy a late first Student for the cantrip +Buy. -And the Engine player will get the +Buy just after they wanted to start double-Provincing.
The fact that you have to "activate" each bonus and that you have to junk your opening to get the +coin would still make it comparable to Village at 3, I think.
Of course I might be terribly wrong and suddently getting a deckful of Marketing Bazaars on turn 15 is more powerful than I thought. Even more so since early Students won't really junk you if all you want from life is cheap cards, like uh, Students.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:55:56 pm by Accatitippi »
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #227 on: January 25, 2016, 04:56:25 pm »
+2

Would it get too absurd if it were an a cantrip at base?
Cantrip copper -> village + copper -> village market -> village lab market.
Probably.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:58:33 pm by GeneralRamos »
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #228 on: January 25, 2016, 05:43:53 pm »
+1

Would it get too absurd if it were an a cantrip at base?
Cantrip copper -> village + copper -> village market -> village lab market.
Probably.

Then it would have to cost at least $5, because Cantrip copper has been determined before to be worth $4, and this would be strictly better than that, better enough to cost $5. So yes, it is too crazy, at least if they want to keep it at $3.

Another option i thought about recently would be to swap the Spring and Winter bonuses - it starts as a cantrip, becomes a Village, becomes a Worker's Village, becomes a Village-Market. Maybe that would be better.

I think that would be much better, since it takes until Fall to stop being strictly worse than a Squire, which is pretty bad. Every official card that has a variable effect like this has a cost equal to the average value if the card's multiple effects were split into separate cards (for example, Ironmonger's effects are Village ($3 cost), Peddler ($4 cost), and Lab ($5 cost). It's actual cost is ($3+$4+$5)/3 = $4).

As it is currently, its effects are: Copper ($0 cost), Squire w/ fixed choice ($1 cost), Co0kieL0rd's Suburbia (Reactionless version, $2 or $3, probably $3 cost), and Bazaar + buy ($6 cost). Thus, it's average value is: ($0+$1+$3+$6)/4 = $2.5.

Spring/Winter switched version's effects are: Cantrip ($0 cost), Village ($3 cost), Worker's Village ($4 cost), and Bazaar + buy ($6 cost). It's average value is: ($0+$3+$4+$6)/4 = $3.25.

Mathematically, if the Spring/Winter bonuses are switched like you suggest, the percent error for costing it at $3 would be +8.33% instead of -16.67%; in other words, it would be twice as good an estimate for how much it should cost!
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #229 on: January 25, 2016, 06:03:47 pm »
+3

I think that would be much better, since it takes until Fall to stop being strictly worse than a Squire, which is pretty bad. Every official card that has a variable effect like this has a cost equal to the average value if the card's multiple effects were split into separate cards (for example, Ironmonger's effects are Village ($3 cost), Peddler ($4 cost), and Lab ($5 cost). It's actual cost is ($3+$4+$5)/3 = $4).

Are there any other cards like this besides Ironmonger?  It's definitely just coincidence, and not a good design principle that should be followed in general.  Ironmonger is intended to hit different kinds of cards with different probabilities, so just averaging the costs obviously doesn't mean it should cost $4.  Plus, costs don't scale linearly with utility in general with Dominion; the difference between $4 and $5 is much larger than the difference between $3 and $4.  Also, Ironmonger is actually better than Village when it hits an action, Peddler when it hits a treasure, and Lab when it hits a victory card, because you also get to spy that card; so if your reasoning was correct, Ironmonger should cost more than $4 (though it'd probably still be a lot closer to $4 than $5).  But most importantly, it's much better to think about how the effects work in combination with each other, rather than just evaluating each effect in a vacuum and averaging them.  A card that is a solid village sometimes and a solid terminal other times (like Tribute) is significantly worse than a card which is always a solid village, or a card which is always a solid terminal.

That being said, I think I agree that the card is too weak as it is, but switching the +1 card and +$1 would probably help out a lot.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #230 on: January 25, 2016, 06:18:25 pm »
+1

I too am dubious of the math's value and averaging as a pricing solution. But even following the math, we need to factor in the fact that that is an optimal scenario, if one buys and plays it starting in Spring and then again in each successive season. I guess that's my roundabout way of suggesting maybe trying it out at $2 instead of $3.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #231 on: January 25, 2016, 06:23:39 pm »
+1

Technically a cantrip base isn't strictly better than "Peddler" because it is just a cantrip with no benefit the very first time it is played, but that isn't much of a drawback.

I almost posted the idea of making the base a cantrip, but it ends up pretty different from the original concept.  I think if you did that, it would be worth considering removing the +card token bonus from it somehow. If it is a cantrip with all 4 tokens when fully powered up, I would agree the cost would need to be higher than $3. 

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2016, 01:14:31 pm »
+3

After a few tries, this is the wording I suggest in order to have a reasonable font size on Student. (Obviously I don't have the Season background template, so I couldn't duplicate the card exactly.)



I've played one game with Student, in which Co0kieL0rd bought Students and I didn't. I don't remember who won, but I think it was a pretty close game. Student seems reasonable, power-wise. It's a cool card, although I agree with GeneralRamos that—in an IRL game—the pile will often be a mess of tokens.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with eHalcyon's early post that "Autumn" is way classier than "Fall".
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 01:15:59 pm by LastFootnote »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2016, 01:21:08 pm »
+1

I thought a bit more about this. For Student to be skippable on some boards until Summer, the bonus in Spring has to be either +Action or +Buy. If it is +Card or +$, and you skipped Student in Spring, getting one in Summer is a complete waste of money. If the Spring bonus is +Action or +Buy, though, you may be able to skip it some times.

I do think +Buy belongs in the later half of the game, and even though +Action is very nice, there might be boards where (for a lack of cantrips or better available +Action cards), you will still want Students without it. So, another idea:
Basic bonus: +1 Action
Spring: +1 Action
Summer:+$1
Fall: +1 Card
Winter:+1 Buy

This way, It goes either
Necropolis->Coin-Necropolis->Village-Peddler->Village-Market
or Copper->Peddler->Market
or Cantrip->Market Square

The option to swap +$ and +Card still stands with this scenario, although it seems to me that adding the draw in Fall is still early enough and avoids a "better than Village in Summer already"-scenario.

After a few tries, this is the wording I suggest in order to have a reasonable font size on Student. (Obviously I don't have the Season background template, so I couldn't duplicate the card exactly.)

I've played one game with Student, in which Co0kieL0rd bought Students and I didn't. I don't remember who won, but I think it was a pretty close game. Student seems reasonable, power-wise. It's a cool card, although I agree with GeneralRamos that—in an IRL game—the pile will often be a mess of tokens.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with eHalcyon's early post that "Autumn" is way classier than "Fall".

Thanks for the wording suggestion, LastFootnote. I think we can go with that one. Also, yes, the pile is a mess of tokens, but it's usually a matter of counting tokens in your color, anyway. Not that this means it's not an issue, but at least it's not a mechanical one.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 01:36:45 pm by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2016, 01:37:20 pm »
+2

I think putting +$1 in Spring will actually create more scenarios where you skip the Spring bonus.  Every board has a source of coins (basic Treasures) but not every board has splitters.  I thought that this was the reasoning behind your first posted version having +$1 in Spring.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2016, 02:46:33 pm »
0

@ eHalcyon: Good point.

Sorry, i feel i'm not very focused right now, i'll be back somewhere these days.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2016, 04:45:29 pm »
+2

Thanks for all the feedback. It's good to see so many people care and put thought into the card. In most games we had, Student wasn't too weak because usually, when you want it, you get only one in Spring and don't start gaining more before Fall. Remember you only need one Student per shuffle to make all you subsequent Students better.

I think for now we'll stick with the version we posted intitially because that's the one we tested and it worked well. We might test some other version when Asper can spare more time. Although I'll be happy to playtest with other people or to hear their experiences should anyone play with our cards on their own.
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Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2016, 04:56:51 pm »
0

Is Student too crazy if it allows you to move the token to any action supply pile? In this way it's more like the other token cards... obviously a lot stronger, but still way weaker than Teacher due to the limitation of different tokens in different seasons.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2016, 05:07:23 pm »
0

Is Student too crazy if it allows you to move the token to any action supply pile? In this way it's more like the other token cards... obviously a lot stronger, but still way weaker than Teacher due to the limitation of different tokens in different seasons.

Well, it would be a completely different card that has nothing to do with our current Student and hasn't been tested at all. So if anyone feels confident enough to tell us if that would be crazy, please be my guest  ;)
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Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #239 on: January 26, 2016, 05:15:04 pm »
0

Hmmm, it's like teacher that you can play once every five turns minimum? Seems crazy at $3.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #240 on: January 26, 2016, 05:36:31 pm »
+1

Hmmm, it's like teacher that you can play once every five turns minimum? Seems crazy at $3.

A teacher that can only teach himself is not as close to strong as Teacher
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #241 on: January 26, 2016, 05:38:30 pm »
+1

Hmmm, it's like teacher that you can play once every five turns minimum? Seems crazy at $3.

A teacher that can only teach himself is not as close to strong as Teacher
We're talking about GendoI's post.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #242 on: January 26, 2016, 05:44:49 pm »
+2

Hmmm, it's like teacher that you can play once every five turns minimum? Seems crazy at $3.

A teacher that can only teach himself is not as close to strong as Teacher
We're talking about GendoI's post.

Then you should quote it!  :P
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #243 on: January 26, 2016, 06:14:40 pm »
0

If you want to avoid cluttering the Student pile you may put the tokens on the Seasons mat. I'd probably do that IRL to avoid the mess, anyway.  :)
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Davio

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #244 on: January 27, 2016, 07:45:38 am »
+1

Took me a while to figure out the card keeps getting stronger as the tokens don't get moved off the card in later seasons. :)

So:
Spring: +1 Action, +$1 (basically just a Copper)
Summer: +1 Action, +$1 (sort of Fishing Village)
Fall: +2 Actions, +$1, +1 Buy (sort of Worker's Village)
Winter: +1 Card, +2 Actions, +$1, +1 Buy (Bazaar/Market hybrid)

I'd argue that Spring and Summer versions are weaker than $3, Fall is around a medium-ish $4 (compare it to Worker's Village, but I'd rather have the card instead of the $1), Winter is like a Bazaar or Market plus and so a strong $5 / weak $6.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #245 on: January 27, 2016, 12:03:30 pm »
0

Took me a while to figure out the card keeps getting stronger as the tokens don't get moved off the card in later seasons. :)

So:
Spring: +1 Action, +$1 (basically just a Copper)
Summer: +1 Action, +$1 (sort of Fishing Village)
Fall: +2 Actions, +$1, +1 Buy (sort of Worker's Village)
Winter: +1 Card, +2 Actions, +$1, +1 Buy (Bazaar/Market hybrid)

I'd argue that Spring and Summer versions are weaker than $3, Fall is around a medium-ish $4 (compare it to Worker's Village, but I'd rather have the card instead of the $1), Winter is like a Bazaar or Market plus and so a strong $5 / weak $6.

I would say the Fall version [+2 Actions; +1 Buy; +$1] would cost $2, maybe $3. It's really not until you get to Winter (and play it once in Winter for the Fall effect before you place the token) that Student becomes good. Although you only have to get one Student early, and can buy more later (as long as there are Students left to buy of course).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #246 on: January 27, 2016, 01:03:04 pm »
0

+2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1 would almost certainly be a $3 card. It is to Festival as Village is to Bazaar.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #247 on: January 27, 2016, 01:09:54 pm »
+3

+2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1 would almost certainly be a $3 card. It is to Festival as Village is to Bazaar.
+2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1 would almost certainly be a $2 card. It is to Bazaar as CSM is to Baker.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #248 on: January 27, 2016, 01:11:37 pm »
+3

+2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1 would almost certainly be a $3 card. It is to Festival as Village is to Bazaar.

Not necessarily. The difference between Bazaar and Village is that Bazaar helps your economy while Village doesn't do anything. The difference between Festival and this is that Festival helps your economy while this actually hurts it.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #249 on: January 27, 2016, 01:16:41 pm »
+3

Squire is also a close comparison.



Random bad idea for Student: In games using this, Fall is the first season.
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