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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 160363 times)

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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2016, 08:03:37 pm »
0

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2016, 08:08:53 pm »
+1

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.
If he was joking, I don't think he'd say 'genuinely.'

I like the card, though. Seems about average for a $5 cost, and is very, very thematic.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2016, 08:11:42 pm »
+5

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.

I am serious.  The cold thing isn't even the big one (that's a mild joking Canadian thing); the term "Oriental" is actually offensive.  It's antiquated and calls back to Bad Times in the past.  You shouldn't use it (or at least think twice before you do), for the same reason you wouldn't normally call somebody a Negro.  That this is for a game in a fictional setting isn't really an excuse.  So, I am sure you mean well, but I'd appreciate it if that particular line was edited.  Maybe refer to merchants or something instead of using an antiquated term that homogenizes an entire continent of diverse peoples.  I'll end it there because this is already well into RSP territory.




On the card itself - I'm guessing the mechanisms here are more driven by flavour than is usual in Dominion?  It's interesting.  +$1 every turn is similar to Treasury (and IIRC, that's how the concept for Treasury began).  This throws in the +1 Buy as well and, unlike Treasury, it doesn't get lost after buying a Victory card.  However, it does go dry every Winter.  In that way, it seems to be good for building up the engine but it doesn't help you as much during the end game.

In your playtests, how much does Winter affect strategy around this card?  If Treasury is on the board, what do you do and why?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2016, 08:15:54 pm »
0

Thanks for changing it.  Now I'm not sure if I should edit the commentary as well...
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2016, 08:17:59 pm »
+2

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.

I am serious.  The cold thing isn't even the big one (that's a mild joking Canadian thing); the term "Oriental" is actually offensive.  It's antiquated and calls back to Bad Times in the past.  You shouldn't use it (or at least think twice before you do), for the same reason you wouldn't normally call somebody a Negro.  That this is for a game in a fictional setting isn't really an excuse.  So, I am sure you mean well, but I'd appreciate it if that particular line was edited.  Maybe refer to merchants or something instead of using an antiquated term that homogenizes an entire continent of diverse peoples.  I'll end it there because this is already well into RSP territory.

Oh man, I didn't know that! :( You really shouldn't feel offended by me, though. Of course I mean well! But I'll refrain from using that term from now on. I blame dict.leo.org for not marking the word as pejorative when I looked it up.

On the card itself - I'm guessing the mechanisms here are more driven by flavour than is usual in Dominion?  It's interesting.  +$1 every turn is similar to Treasury (and IIRC, that's how the concept for Treasury began).  This throws in the +1 Buy as well and, unlike Treasury, it doesn't get lost after buying a Victory card.  However, it does go dry every Winter.  In that way, it seems to be good for building up the engine but it doesn't help you as much during the end game.

In your playtests, how much does Winter affect strategy around this card?  If Treasury is on the board, what do you do and why?

Of course Trade Port would be strictly better than Treasury without the Winter drawback so we couldn't have that. It's still pretty good but I must admit we recently changed it without playtesting this version. The previous, tested version said "At the start of each of your turns, until this leaves play: +1 Buy, +$1, and in Winter discard this from play." This meant you could still play this in Winter to get the +buy next turn which was actually significant if it was the only source of +buy.
LastFootnote mentioned this was incompatible with official rules for Durations and suggested the above wording which we like for its simplicity. But it behaves differently now and we have only theoretically evaluated the impact on Trade Port's performance.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 08:26:40 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2016, 08:42:03 pm »
+3

Of course Trade Port would be strictly better than Treasury without the Winter drawback so we couldn't have that. It's still pretty good but I must admit we recently changed it without playtesting this version. The previous, tested version said "At the start of each of your turns, until this leaves play: +1 Buy, +$1, and in Winter discard this from play." This meant you could still play this in Winter to get the +buy next turn which was actually significant if it was the only source of +buy.
LastFootnote mentioned this was incompatible with official rules for Durations and suggested the above wording which we like for its simplicity. But it behaves differently now and we have only theoretically evaluated the impact on Trade Port's performance.

The change should make it weaker, right?  Granted, having the card go back into your deck could a drawback (it is just a Herbalist on the initial play), but being able to get the +Buy during the Winter could be a big deal.

FWIW, a legal alternative wording that I think matches your original version could be, "At the start of each of your turns until the next Winter..." though that might be a bit confusing for whether it applies on the first turn of Winter.  Ah - "until the start of your next Winter turn" might work, and it matches the wording of the attack durations.

Oh, random new thought - you should use Autumn instead of Fall.  Way classier. ;)
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2016, 06:20:02 am »
+2

I do think Trade Port is better than Treasury. It can't get hit by attacks, gives a buy, and allows picking up green cards early. We have played games that never saw a Winter, although those are not common. On the other hand, Treasury, much like Lab when compared to Hireling, actually does something the turns it's played in, and needs not fear terminal collision. Also unlike Trade Port, it doesn't just stop doing anything. Instead, it becomes a Peddler. I'm not sure i'd pick up Treasury on many boards that have Trade Port, honestly. Colony Games might work, or games with a lot of junking that easily go into Winter for other reasons. I almost listed VP token cards, as those avoid buying Victory cards, but i don't think any works good with Treasury. Goons actively harms it. Games where you gain your VP cards rather than buy them would also work, but man, when do you need Treasury, then?

I guess in general is better than Trade Port the later in the game you are. It's not like you couldn't buy one or two Trade Ports, and then, when Winter approaches, switch for Treasuries. But yes, we're aware of the similarities, and it has been a constant topic when discussing Trade Port.

Also, the theme is actually that your Port freezes over in Winter.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2016, 07:14:14 am »
+1

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!



I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2016, 07:42:22 am »
0

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2016, 08:04:33 am »
+1

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

True, the card is basically always better when it's not winter. Mmm. One way to make it slightly worse is add a 'discard a card' clause if you want to use the effect (similar to Oasis.)

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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2016, 08:19:39 am »
0

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

True, the card is basically always better when it's not winter. Mmm. One way to make it slightly worse is add a 'discard a card' clause if you want to use the effect (similar to Oasis.)

It's worse on the turn you play it, but yes, it's basically always better besides this. Not that Treasury is very good, but it's something we haven't found an elegant solution to, yet.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2016, 08:22:07 am »
+1

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

True, the card is basically always better when it's not winter. Mmm. One way to make it slightly worse is add a 'discard a card' clause if you want to use the effect (similar to Oasis.)

It's worse on the turn you play it, but yes, it's basically always better besides this. Not that Treasury is very good, but it's something we haven't found an elegant solution to, yet.

'every time you use the plus buy from trade port, gain a copper'? I am just throwing things out here at this point, if you are looking for ways to make it ever so slightly worse. Or make it *either* +$1 or +1 buy? That probably might make it too weak.

And what about a cost increase? Does +6 make it too expensive? What's the strength of Trade Port in a 2/5 opening?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 08:26:59 am by AdrianHealey »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2016, 09:03:57 am »
0

Well, it's strongest if you can open with it. But i don't think it's actually overpowered, so my biggest concern is making it feel more different, not making it weaker.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2016, 10:18:42 am »
+1

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2016, 10:46:00 am »
+2

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2016, 10:54:08 am »
0

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...

I thought about allowing other players to gain Estates as a Winter effect, but that would be a straight nerf. Junking them with Estates just feels too "attack-y". We could, however, go back to a variant that returns to your deck and just does nothing -which i think was the main reason we never got more than one before. Like

"Until Winter, at the start of each of your turns: +1 Buy, +$1. (This stays in play until Winter)"

Season advancement seems cool, but, well... Spoilers gonna spoil.
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2016, 10:59:15 am »
+5

Season advancement seems cool, but, well... Spoilers gonna spoil.

Asper does not yet want to spill the event of the set:

Winter is coming
Event - $2
Move the season marker to the next field.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2016, 11:19:01 am »
+2

I was wondering, is it bad to make it not work in Fall or Winter, and bump the price down a bit?  I think that would differentiate it a bit more.  Maybe give it a bit of an on-play effect to make up for the times you see it in Fall and Winter?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2016, 11:34:13 am »
+1

Season advancement seems cool, but, well... Spoilers gonna spoil.

Asper does not yet want to spill the event of the set:

Winter is coming
Event - $2
Move the season marker to the next field.
I don't think you're serious, but that actually looks really cool.
+1
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2016, 11:58:25 am »
+1

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...

Cause it's a temporal Market-Hireling :)

I'm pretty sure that if Trade Port wouldn't have the Winter restriction, it would be still worse than Hireling because Trade port does not increase the reliability of your turn, so I'm pretty sure the pricing is accurate.

Have you considered to use the -1 token as the Winter penalty? I would actually love this since this makes you want to get more of them (The penalty is unique) so you can end the game earlier. It could even get a buff earlier to make up for it.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2016, 12:50:24 pm »
+1

I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the input right now. Sorry, i'll reply to the rest later. Got to do stuff for university. My sincere apologies for that...

Cause it's a temporal Market-Hireling :)

Hireling is a lasting +1 Card. Treasury is a lasting +$1. Trade Port is a lasting +1Buy, +$1. It's more similar to Treasury than to Hireling, even though it uses the mechanic of the latter.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2016, 12:52:16 pm »
0

How about the +1 buy and the forgotten gains mechanic (gain a copper in your hand if you need it).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2016, 01:29:59 pm »
0

I have noticed something about the comparison between Trade Port and Treasury - point that hasn't come up yet but I think is very significant. While a single Trade Port is almost strictly better than a single Treasury, the latter is easily spammable with little downside. However, each additional Trade Port you gain before Winter is worse than the one you gained before because it will be effectual for fewer turns overall.
As the most recent game Asper, LastFootnote and I played clearly showed, spamming Trade Ports is extremely slow and expensive and in Winter you lose a bunch of payload. So not only am I convinced now that Trade Port is balanced as-is, I'm also growing fond of the idea of giving you an incentive to buy them in multiples. Drsteelhammer made a good suggestion:

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...

Cause it's a temporal Market-Hireling :)

I'm pretty sure that if Trade Port wouldn't have the Winter restriction, it would be still worse than Hireling because Trade port does not increase the reliability of your turn, so I'm pretty sure the pricing is accurate.

Have you considered to use the -1 token as the Winter penalty? I would actually love this since this makes you want to get more of them (The penalty is unique) so you can end the game earlier. It could even get a buff earlier to make up for it.

I like it assuming you mean Trade Port stays effectual even in Winter and in addition gives you the -$1 token then. That would make TP too similar to another Season card, though. But it's the one I'm least convinced about so I'm going to talk with Asper about possible changes to that.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2016, 01:31:47 pm »
+1

Isn't this an almost permanent market?

How is trade port not also strictly better than market, except in winter?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2016, 01:39:15 pm »
+1

Isn't this an almost permanent market?

How is trade port not also strictly better than market, except in winter?

Please look at my previous post in which I emphasize the important difference between comparing individual cards and spamming copies of them. The same point can be made for Market. It's much more spammable than Trade Port.
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept
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