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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 51403 times)

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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2016, 04:04:21 pm »
+6

Since most comments on the first two cards have been positive, i'll now dare to post something less straightforward.



There are not many Season cards that do something different each Season, because that requires a lot of text. We thought it would be sad to just have none of those, though, and so we made Sojourner. What you can immediately see is that it uses an expansion-specific mechanic, the VP tokens from Prosperity. Seasons is a set by fans for fans, so we decided to neglect restrictions that would be applied to a "real" Dominion set and included a few cards that used such mechanics.

As a one-shot, this guy only visits your kingdom for a short time. And, depending on the Season he leaves in will also leave something different behind to help you with your engine-y needs. All effects are about two things, which I personally wanted a lot because I felt it added some symmetry. Not sure it makes the bonuses easier to remember, as I also hoped. Winter is not as good as the others, but getting that VP now is better than never, right? It costs $2 so getting it back from the trash for some endless-VP engine is impossible.

Co0kieL0rd will be presenting the next card in the set. Fire when ready, your l0rdship.

eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2016, 04:09:13 pm »
+2

Why include the +VP at all?  Even without it, it seems like a decent one-shot, especially in the Fall.
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yuma

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2016, 04:09:36 pm »
+3

I can't help but notice that the all the effects are practically the same used by Knights Sylvia, Destry, Anna and Martin. Given that I really like that the card art is of a knight.

Any reason that the trash phrasing is the way it is against what Dame Anna uses: "trash up to 2 cards from your hand."
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2016, 04:13:40 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2016, 04:15:48 pm »
+1

Since most comments on the first two cards have been positive, i'll now dare to post something less straightforward.



There are not many Season cards that do something different each Season, because that requires a lot of text. We thought it would be sad to just have none of those, though, and so we made Sojourner. What you can immediately see is that it uses an expansion-specific mechanic, the VP tokens from Prosperity. Seasons is a set by fans for fans, so we decided to neglect restrictions that would be applied to a "real" Dominion set and included a few cards that used such mechanics.

As a one-shot, this guy only visits your kingdom for a short time. And, depending on the Season he leaves in will also leave something different behind to help you with your engine-y needs. All effects are about two things, which I personally wanted a lot because I felt it added some symmetry. Not sure it makes the bonuses easier to remember, as I also hoped. Winter is not as good as the others, but getting that VP now is better than never, right? It costs $2 so getting it back from the trash for some endless-VP engine is impossible.

Co0kieL0rd will be presenting the next card in the set. Fire when ready, your l0rdship.

My immediate response would be: remove the +1VP-token and add a clause such as 'when you trash this, put it back on the supply'. That would make the card, I think, even more interesting.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2016, 04:17:54 pm »
+1

I like this card quite a bit. It's something I would pretty much always want to pick up on $2, and it will make the game generally more interesting as this looks like a card that takes some skill to utilize. My biggest complaint is that the pink border clashes with the shadowy picture.

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2016, 04:23:11 pm »
+7

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.

He doesn't want to read fan cards because when he creates his own cards, he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2016, 04:24:21 pm »
+2

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.

He doesn't want to read fan cards because when he creates his own cards, he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism.
Makes sense. Personally, I'd be honored if one of my ideas got stolen and made into a card, but I can easily see why others wouldn't like that.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2016, 04:38:57 pm »
+1

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.

He doesn't want to read fan cards because when he creates his own cards, he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism.
Makes sense. Personally, I'd be honored if one of my ideas got stolen and made into a card, but I can easily see why others wouldn't like that.

How likely is it that he will still make new cards?

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2016, 04:41:15 pm »
+1

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

I do appreciate that Sojourner avoids golden decks by being a one-shot. In fact I think you could have such a card be pricier (and therefore gainable from the trash) and it still might never be a problem. I don't really like that the +VP seems a bit tacked-on here, especially since the card is wordy. I do like that the Winter option is weakest, which is when the +VP is strongest.

Maybe if it gave +2 VP it would feel like that part of the card was more significant. Or if the +VP were confined to a season when you don't usually want VP, like Summer (in which case it could be more than +2 VP).

Hopefully I'll get to play with the card soon, and maybe my opinion will change.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 04:46:55 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2016, 04:43:01 pm »
+6

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2016, 04:48:30 pm »
+1

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".

A sentiment I respect, but I hope that there would be a way to persuade him into 'be the guy that allows more cards for people'. But all resepct for him if he doesn't want to.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2016, 04:49:42 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

How likely is it that he will still make new cards?

I don't think we can peg a number, but I'd bet that it's non-zero.  Any chance at all is enough reason for him to avoid looking at fan cards.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2016, 04:50:33 pm »
+2

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

I do appreciate that Sojourner avoids golden decks by being a one-shot. In fact I think you could have such a card be pricier (and therefore gainable from the trash) and it still might never be a problem. I don't really like that the +VP seems a bit tacked-on here, especially since the card is wordy. I do like that the Winter option is weakest, which is when the +VP is strongest.

Maybe if it gave +2 VP it would feel like that part of the card was more significant. Or if the +VP were confined to a season when you don't usually want VP, like Summer (in which case it could be more than +2 VP).

Hopefully I'll get to play with the card soon, and maybe my opinion will change.

In their defense: it's very easy to count vp-tokens. Just like a separate piece of paper. It's harder when it uses stuf like ruins or spoils. But vp-tokens is easy to count. You don't need thé vp-tokens for that.

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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2016, 04:53:07 pm »
0

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".

I think he said that, when he had to build on a fan card, there would still be a lot of work involved, and so it would be the same effort without the fun. (Will try to answer to the Sojourner comments immediately).

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2016, 04:53:47 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

That's exactly the reason why I'd delay it. To create the difference in trade off. Now you get the bonus when you are more likely to buy it anyway. I like creating more choices, rather than 'it's optimal to buy here and only then'. But I am not the maker. It's just my sentiment. I like cards with trade offs. (Count is a card I like for this reason.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2016, 04:56:22 pm »
+3

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

That's exactly the reason why I'd delay it. To create the difference in trade off. Now you get the bonus when you are more likely to buy it anyway. I like creating more choices, rather than 'it's optimal to buy here and only then'. But I am not the maker. It's just my sentiment. I like cards with trade offs. (Count is a card I like for this reason.)

But that's what they're doing by putting the bonus in Spring.  It's normally a bad idea to buy a village that early, but now you have an incentive to do it since it comes with trashing, which is good early.  With the bonus in Spring, there's a trade-off.

With the bonus in Summer, it's just totally optimal to continue buying it Summer, just like you'd usually do with Villages anyway.

With the bonus in Fall or Winter, it's still optimal to continue buying it in Summer because you need the village and the bonus is minimal by that point in the game.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2016, 04:57:54 pm »
+1

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".

I think he said that, when he had to build on a fan card, there would still be a lot of work involved, and so it would be the same effort without the fun.

Close. Basically there are two parts to making a card: the idea and the testing (although obviously it's an iterative process unless the first version works perfectly). He has said something like: the ideas are the fun part. For fan cards, he would have to do the work to playtest them anyway (and he did for Summon).

In reality, making the ideas and doing the playtesting are both fun. But I understand that he'd rather be the one having the idea-making fun as well.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2016, 05:30:56 pm »
+1

Why include the +VP at all?  Even without it, it seems like a decent one-shot, especially in the Fall.

One problem with a card that does something different each Season is that you might be unlucky and not be able to play it in a certain Season. We decided it should have one bonus the card always gives so you can at least rely on that. It's true that this bonus doesn't necessarily have to be a VP. It could have been a Village, but that's bad in Spring, or gain cards, which - depending on what you gain - could enable you to empty the Sojourner pile in one turn. But, as said, the cards are not set in stone. Sojourner in fact had some last-minute changes made to it just yesterday.

I can't help but notice that the all the effects are practically the same used by Knights Sylvia, Destry, Anna and Martin. Given that I really like that the card art is of a knight.

Any reason that the trash phrasing is the way it is against what Dame Anna uses: "trash up to 2 cards from your hand."

Thanks. And, actually, i'm not sure there was a reason. Co0kieL0rd?

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

I do appreciate that Sojourner avoids golden decks by being a one-shot. In fact I think you could have such a card be pricier (and therefore gainable from the trash) and it still might never be a problem. I don't really like that the +VP seems a bit tacked-on here, especially since the card is wordy. I do like that the Winter option is weakest, which is when the +VP is strongest.

Maybe if it gave +2 VP it would feel like that part of the card was more significant. Or if the +VP were confined to a season when you don't usually want VP, like Summer (in which case it could be more than +2 VP).

Hopefully I'll get to play with the card soon, and maybe my opinion will change.

I see you share eHalcyon's opinion on the VP. Hm. I can't promise anything, but this feedback will give Co0kieL0rd and me a bit to think about. It's a bit easier to reply to remarks like this when you do your cards alone as you can just say "Will do"/"Won't do". So i can just say that opinions and ideas brought up here are very valuable to both of us :)

About the idea to give VP in only one specific Season, it might have been there for a while. Personally, i dislike the idea of a card that requires special components and that might get (decently) used in a game without the components ever mattering. It's a bit more likely for a one-shot, as it doesn't stay around for the Seasons to come.

The idea to have it give +2VP seems also interesting, although we might not be able to justify the price anymore, then. Maybe if we removed the +1Action? Hm, still seems really good. Either way, is +2 Cards, +2VP something you want to have in Fall? Hm, maybe, if you prepared for that. Trash two Estates in Summer, keep the VP? Also nice, and even has some sort of elegance. And +2VP, +$2 causes no problem in Spring, as there is a lower risk of terminal collision. The VP still work in Winter. Very interesting. But i'm getting ahead, i'm sure CL will have his share of ideas on this, too.

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

That's exactly the reason why I'd delay it. To create the difference in trade off. Now you get the bonus when you are more likely to buy it anyway. I like creating more choices, rather than 'it's optimal to buy here and only then'. But I am not the maker. It's just my sentiment. I like cards with trade offs. (Count is a card I like for this reason.)

But that's what they're doing by putting the bonus in Spring.  It's normally a bad idea to buy a village that early, but now you have an incentive to do it since it comes with trashing, which is good early.  With the bonus in Spring, there's a trade-off.

With the bonus in Summer, it's just totally optimal to continue buying it Summer, just like you'd usually do with Villages anyway.

With the bonus in Fall or Winter, it's still optimal to continue buying it in Summer because you need the village and the bonus is minimal by that point in the game.

Yes, that was our idea behind it. Get a Village before you need it and be rewarded. Fall is turns 10 to 15, which is where some games will already have you greening. I don't think any amount of trashing (without benefit) would make waiting that long to get a Village attractive.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2016, 05:45:06 pm »
+3

Between Asper and myself, I think I've always been the one who was more in favour of +1VP on Sojourner. I think it fits nicely thematically - he's an honourable guest to your kingdom or whatever. Mechanically, the VP bonus is what makes the Sojourner split actually important in very close (2 player) games. Raising it to +2VP, like LFN suggested, is an option to emphasize that factor even more so I'm going to think about that.

Besides, I have no problem with using material from other expansions, especially VP or coin tokens which you can easily replace with pennies or a tally or what have you. One of our cards uses Ruins though so if want to play with the full set but don't own Dark Ages I recommend you get the expansion (it's one of the best IMO) oryou just can't play with that one Season card. Sad thing but not a reason to waste any potential fpr card mechanics. Also I think there should be more Looters in Dominion.

The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

When designing the card we didn't think about Knights at all. Maybe it doesn't say "trash up to" to save a line of text. But it also makes the card slightly more edgy - in the unlikely case you draw Sojourner in summer with 4 other cards that contains less than 2 you want to trash, it's not the end of the world; just save it and play it next time you see it. If it's in fall, you get to do something different and perhaps that's just what you need in that turn.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 05:49:45 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2016, 05:48:22 pm »
+2

I like the card as-is. I don't like the idea of removing the +1 Action to make it +2 VP mainly because a one-shot card is supposed to be powerful, and removing the action making a much bigger differenece in strength than changing +1 VP to +2 VP. I also like having the VP there. In games with only one VP token card, a few VP tokens from cards like this make a significant difference. Seems to me, lots of my games end with the provinces evenly split, so you have to watch the extra bits of VP that make the difference.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2016, 06:00:52 pm »
+1


The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

That's a fair point, but for a one-shot, I find the card a bit underwhelming. I can't immediately come up with situations where this would be an important point of a strategy. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to use this card? (I am nto saying you must in order to defend the card: the card is interesting as it is, I am just not sure I'd buy it a lot.)
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2016, 06:12:27 pm »
0


The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

That's a fair point, but for a one-shot, I find the card a bit underwhelming. I can't immediately come up with situations where this would be an important point of a strategy. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to use this card? (I am nto saying you must in order to defend the card: the card is interesting as it is, I am just not sure I'd buy it a lot.)

If Sojourner is the only card in the kingdom that does what no other card does in at least one season, it should be worth buying. E.g. if it's the only trasher you want to buy a couple of them early, or if it's the only +buy and your deck has a lot of $ payload having them ready in winter might be a key to victory. One situation I can think of right now where the VP matter is where all players have the same points and the game is almost over and the player who gets to play their Sojourners before the others and end the game wins.
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Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2016, 06:47:13 pm »
+2


The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

That's a fair point, but for a one-shot, I find the card a bit underwhelming. I can't immediately come up with situations where this would be an important point of a strategy. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to use this card? (I am nto saying you must in order to defend the card: the card is interesting as it is, I am just not sure I'd buy it a lot.)

If Sojourner is the only card in the kingdom that does what no other card does in at least one season, it should be worth buying. E.g. if it's the only trasher you want to buy a couple of them early, or if it's the only +buy and your deck has a lot of $ payload having them ready in winter might be a key to victory. One situation I can think of right now where the VP matter is where all players have the same points and the game is almost over and the player who gets to play their Sojourners before the others and end the game wins.

Yup, that makes sense. Interesting card, for sure.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2016, 07:01:38 pm »
+5

I have to say that as good as certain fan cards and fan sets have been, this is the first time that I've ever felt an actual desire to print fan cards to play with them.
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