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Author Topic: Dominion: Seasons  (Read 39551 times)

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Co0kieL0rd

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Dominion: Seasons
« on: January 10, 2016, 06:24:06 pm »
+31

Greetings, fellow fan card enthusiasts!

Dominion takes place in medieval Europe which has been exposed to the vicissitudes of the Seasons, more so than our modern society. This is not accurately reflected in the gameplay, though. Asper and I proudly present this small expansion that introduces a turn-based card modification mechanic to Dominion.

Dominion: Seasons is a set that wants to change the way games take course and forces the players to adapt their strategy to the current game state. As the game progresses, Seasons change and Season cards get different effects. With this feature come a new level of strategical depth and a unique game style.

Each game that includes one or more Season cards uses the Season mat (see below) on which the progress of Seasons is marked with a Season marker. The game starts in Spring, section 1. After each full turn (e.g. after the last player in turn order took their turn) the Season marker is moved forward one section. After each 5 turns a new Season begins. Summer starts in turn 6, Fall in turn 11, and Winter in 16. After turn 20 it is Spring again.



The set consists of 12 cards (we might add one more) and 1 event. Most of them have been thoroughly tested although we always gladly welcome more playtesting and feedback. Asper and I will present a new card with in-depth commentary every three days or so. Additionally, the next post will be an overview of the set’s contents as a whole.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 03:38:19 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2016, 06:24:17 pm »
+11

All Season cards have a pink color scheme. We decided it was necessary to make sure players are reminded to take care of the Season token when the game starts.



I'll collect the cards here as new ones are posted.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2016, 06:24:25 pm »
+9



There are a few kinds of cards every dominion set needs. A village. An alt-VP. A card that is better than Scout. And, of course, a junker that reflects the expansion's theme.

Meet Snow Witch, a Curser that gets going only once everyone is already set. It may look cheap for a card that becomes strictly better than Witch once it goes off, but chances are at the time you actually start cursing people with this chilled lady, Curses have become sparse, or those arrogant jerks from the neighbor kingdom are finished building an impenetrable Watchtower defense.

It optionally returns a card to the top of your deck so you can save another copy for a later turn, and also to set itself apart a bit more from normal Witches. The theme is inspired by Snow Women from Japanese folklore and even the image depicts one – no Sir, we did not just paste some word in front of "Witch" to make this card.

So brace yourselves, when the air gets frosty, when the birds start leaving, and when the supermarkets stock up on gingerbread. Winter is coming.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2016, 06:32:00 pm »
+2

Well, this looks profoundly awesome.
I hope Donald sees this!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 07:50:10 pm by Roadrunner7671 »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 07:22:19 pm »
+1

this sounds awesome!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2016, 07:43:27 pm »
+1

I guess that's an appropriate card considering the winter that is finally arriving in the Midwest and Northeast.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2016, 08:33:28 pm »
+1

General concept: I really like it, it is indeed pretty original and there is a lot of potential for great cards. The only thing I would change is the moment you move he Season marker. Obviously I don't know the other cards and how they interact with the seasons, but Snow Witch makes the first player advantage a lot worse since it is not unreasonable to expect that P1 gives out 4-5 curses on t11 when an engine is available. If you would change the moment to the beginning of P2 (P3,4,5 etc) the advantage would not be with P1 which I think would be great for a change.

This concept  obviously hurts P2 on cards where Spring/Summer are the desired seasons so I cant say for sure that this would be a good change but judging only from Snow Witch I think it certainly is.

Other than that I'm pretty excited to see the other cards :)

Also, giving the cards another colour is definitely a good choice
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 08:54:53 pm »
+1

General concept: I really like it, it is indeed pretty original and there is a lot of potential for great cards. The only thing I would change is the moment you move he Season marker. Obviously I don't know the other cards and how they interact with the seasons, but Snow Witch makes the first player advantage a lot worse since it is not unreasonable to expect that P1 gives out 4-5 curses on t11 when an engine is available. If you would change the moment to the beginning of P2 (P3,4,5 etc) the advantage would not be with P1 which I think would be great for a change.

This concept  obviously hurts P2 on cards where Spring/Summer are the desired seasons so I cant say for sure that this would be a good change but judging only from Snow Witch I think it certainly is.

Other than that I'm pretty excited to see the other cards :)

Also, giving the cards another colour is definitely a good choice

Good point on the P1 advantage. It's certainly something to look out for. With more players, obviously more junk can be dealt out before it's your turn, although the amount of curses you can give out only by playing Snow Witches decreases relative to the amount of curses in the supply. That said, it's not exactly unique to Snow Witch to favour the first player - think Militia. Still, it's an interesting observation, and certainly something we need to keep in mind.

Changing the Season at another time than after the last player made his turn would mean some players spend less turns in their first Spring than others. With 5 turns, if nothing weird happens, you are guaranteed to see your opening buys at least once before Summer. Let's just say there are cases where it matters. ;)

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 09:03:01 pm »
+2

Good point on the P1 advantage. It's certainly something to look out for. With more players, obviously more junk can be dealt out before it's your turn, although the amount of curses you can give out only by playing Snow Witches decreases relative to the amount of curses in the supply. That said, it's not exactly unique to Snow Witch to favour the first player - think Militia. Still, it's an interesting observation, and certainly something we need to keep in mind.

Changing the Season at another time than after the last player made his turn would mean some players spend less turns in their first Spring than others. With 5 turns, if nothing weird happens, you are guaranteed to see your opening buys at least once before Summer. Let's just say there are cases where it matters. ;)

Exactly, cards like Militia and situations where P2 shuffles a curse in whereas P1 doesn't made me suggest the above, basically to balance this a bit. However, I didn't consider that the opening buys are guaranteed to be played once after 5 turns, this distinction is probably more important than what I suggested. I take back my previous criticism!
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 09:17:10 pm »
+1

Good point on the P1 advantage. It's certainly something to look out for. With more players, obviously more junk can be dealt out before it's your turn, although the amount of curses you can give out only by playing Snow Witches decreases relative to the amount of curses in the supply. That said, it's not exactly unique to Snow Witch to favour the first player - think Militia. Still, it's an interesting observation, and certainly something we need to keep in mind.

Changing the Season at another time than after the last player made his turn would mean some players spend less turns in their first Spring than others. With 5 turns, if nothing weird happens, you are guaranteed to see your opening buys at least once before Summer. Let's just say there are cases where it matters. ;)

Exactly, cards like Militia and situations where P2 shuffles a curse in whereas P1 doesn't made me suggest the above, basically to balance this a bit. However, I didn't consider that the opening buys are guaranteed to be played once after 5 turns, this distinction is probably more important than what I suggested. I take back my previous criticism!

Nah, don't take it back. It's a pretty interesting observation at least. I suppose in a game where several players build a very tight engine that relies on Snow Witches for draw, a few Curses could make it increasingly hard for players down the line to successfully chain theirs. Of course, only if they shuffle, but still. I guess the fact that you can prepare for a Snow Witch attack is twofold - you can take defensive precautions (making sure your draw pile is big enough not to shuffle might be one), or you can make sure your Witches hit as hard as they can at once.

Helpful criticism like this is very appreciated.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 09:29:40 pm »
+1

Good point on the P1 advantage. It's certainly something to look out for. With more players, obviously more junk can be dealt out before it's your turn, although the amount of curses you can give out only by playing Snow Witches decreases relative to the amount of curses in the supply. That said, it's not exactly unique to Snow Witch to favour the first player - think Militia. Still, it's an interesting observation, and certainly something we need to keep in mind.

Changing the Season at another time than after the last player made his turn would mean some players spend less turns in their first Spring than others. With 5 turns, if nothing weird happens, you are guaranteed to see your opening buys at least once before Summer. Let's just say there are cases where it matters. ;)

Exactly, cards like Militia and situations where P2 shuffles a curse in whereas P1 doesn't made me suggest the above, basically to balance this a bit. However, I didn't consider that the opening buys are guaranteed to be played once after 5 turns, this distinction is probably more important than what I suggested. I take back my previous criticism!

Nah, don't take it back. It's a pretty interesting observation at least. I suppose in a game where several players build a very tight engine that relies on Snow Witches for draw, a few Curses could make it increasingly hard for players down the line to successfully chain theirs. Of course, only if they shuffle, but still. I guess the fact that you can prepare for a Snow Witch attack is twofold - you can take defensive precautions (making sure your draw pile is big enough not to shuffle might be one), or you can make sure your Witches hit as hard as they can at once.

Helpful criticism like this is very appreciated.

This surely won't stop me from posting my critique in the future, all I meant was that I (probably) don't agree with my own point anymore. Sure, getting to curse your opponent first is pretty nice regularly, but now I think a card missing the shuffle and "missing spring" sounds worse than the first option. Of course that's speculation since I don't know the card yet, but your explanation made a lot of sense and to me it sounds like a greater design.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 09:39:56 pm »
+1

I misunderstood when the "Season Token" moved, until now. Here I was thinking that a 3p game would suck being 3rd player because your 2nd turn is now Summer.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 10:19:41 pm »
+5

Now I need a deck-building themed Seasons fan expansion called Dominion.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2016, 11:11:46 pm »
0

I misunderstood when the "Season Token" moved, until now. Here I was thinking that a 3p game would suck being 3rd player because your 2nd turn is now Summer.

The token is supposed to move with each complete round. Technically, it moves immediately before the first player takes his regular turn. So extra turns caused by Outpost, Possession and Mission are not considered. They will all happen in the same Season as the turn they were played/bought.

To make sure the last player doesn't forget to move the token, we have been using a colorful "Season Reminder" card that's put in front of that player. If anybody has a suggestion how this could be done better, juyt tell.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2016, 10:30:36 am »
+1

I guess that's an appropriate card considering the winter that is finally arriving in the Midwest and Northeast.

http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/08/10/11/nedstark.jpg
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 01:33:24 pm »
+2

I can think of a better name for this card!

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2016, 04:05:56 pm »
+3

I'm glad these are being posted! I've only played one game with Seasons cards so far, but I'm really excited about the expansion. It's a very cool concept that seems to translate to fun new Dominion experiences!

As it happens, the game I played (with Co0kieL0rd) had Snow Witch, and thanks to his Snow Witches and Bladesmiths (another delayed junking attack, from Enterprise), I suddenly found myself with 8 Curses come Fall. I almost made a comeback, but alas.

I'm a little disappointed that we're only seeing one card every three days, but so it goes. Thanks for the cool set, Asper and Co0kieL0rd. Are you open to feedback with these cards, or are they set in stone?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2016, 04:15:20 pm »
+1

I'm glad these are being posted! I've only played one game with Seasons cards so far, but I'm really excited about the expansion. It's a very cool concept that seems to translate to fun new Dominion experiences!

As it happens, the game I played (with Co0kieL0rd) had Snow Witch, and thanks to his Snow Witches and Bladesmiths (another delayed junking attack, from Enterprise), I suddenly found myself with 8 Curses come Fall. I almost made a comeback, but alas.

I'm a little disappointed that we're only seeing one card every three days, but so it goes. Thanks for the cool set, Asper and Co0kieL0rd. Are you open to feedback with these cards, or are they set in stone?

We are absolutely open to feedback. There are some cards we are relatively happy with for now, and Snow Witch is - in general - one of them. Allthough, you never know what you missed before you see it. We partially decided to post what we have currently because i felt i needed more time for other things, and so we had the choice between posting it in a not-100%-finished state or keeping it a secret for who-knows-how-long. You know, fan sets, when can you ever say you're finished with them? ;)

Also, when i talked to Co0kieL0rd yesterday, he was already anticipating when he'd be able to post the next card. So if no one feels we are going to fast, i bet he'd love to deliver the next one soon.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2016, 04:27:54 pm »
+2

You guys are not going fast enough. That is my only complaint.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2016, 04:29:27 pm »
+2

We are absolutely open to feedback. There are some cards we are relatively happy with for now, and Snow Witch is - in general - one of them. Allthough, you never know what you missed before you see it. We partially decided to post what we have currently because i felt i needed more time for other things, and so we had the choice between posting it in a not-100%-finished state or keeping it a secret for who-knows-how-long. You know, fan sets, when can you ever say you're finished with them? ;)

I definitely like Snow Witch as-is. It's simple, but a good example of the mechanic. In fact I think I like the four Seasons cards I've played with better than the ones I haven't, but I don't know how much of that was Co0kieL0rd showing off the best stuff and how much was just, I like them better because I've played with them. Hopefully I'll get to play with the rest soon.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2016, 04:39:11 pm »
0

We are absolutely open to feedback. There are some cards we are relatively happy with for now, and Snow Witch is - in general - one of them. Allthough, you never know what you missed before you see it. We partially decided to post what we have currently because i felt i needed more time for other things, and so we had the choice between posting it in a not-100%-finished state or keeping it a secret for who-knows-how-long. You know, fan sets, when can you ever say you're finished with them? ;)

I definitely like Snow Witch as-is. It's simple, but a good example of the mechanic. In fact I think I like the four Seasons cards I've played with better than the ones I haven't, but I don't know how much of that was Co0kieL0rd showing off the best stuff and how much was just, I like them better because I've played with them. Hopefully I'll get to play with the rest soon.
You and Cookielord played IRL with them?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2016, 04:53:43 pm »
0

We are absolutely open to feedback. There are some cards we are relatively happy with for now, and Snow Witch is - in general - one of them. Allthough, you never know what you missed before you see it. We partially decided to post what we have currently because i felt i needed more time for other things, and so we had the choice between posting it in a not-100%-finished state or keeping it a secret for who-knows-how-long. You know, fan sets, when can you ever say you're finished with them? ;)

I definitely like Snow Witch as-is. It's simple, but a good example of the mechanic. In fact I think I like the four Seasons cards I've played with better than the ones I haven't, but I don't know how much of that was Co0kieL0rd showing off the best stuff and how much was just, I like them better because I've played with them. Hopefully I'll get to play with the rest soon.

He told me which cards you guys used, but i can't remember which exactly. I do remember most were stuff we both are rather happy with for now.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 05:18:30 pm »
+2

You and Cookielord played IRL with them?

No, on Tabletop Simulator.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 05:24:02 pm »
0

You and Cookielord played IRL with them?

No, on Tabletop Simulator.
That's a thing? Can you provide a link? Is it an app?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 05:42:41 pm »
+1

You and Cookielord played IRL with them?

No, on Tabletop Simulator.

How does this work with something like Dominion? Is there a Dominion client that's a plugin to this? If so, isn't that in conflict with Making Fun?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2016, 05:53:16 pm »
+5

Thanks for all the signs of appreciation, guys! With this support I am most eager, and proud, to reveal the second card of the set.



As we all know from countless games of Dominion, the excessive troubles of war can be quite exhausting. From time to time, the nobles and liege lords like to spend a nice vacation at a restorative place. Rustic houses at a clean-water lake, trees and birds and stuff… that’s a place you spend your opening $4 for.

Sanitarium is the draw-up-to-x village that for some reason still doesn’t exist in Dominion. It comes with a very engine-friendly on-gain bonus that only works in Spring. Otherwise it would be overpowered. The trash-on-gain incentivizes you to gain Sanitarium during the opening and, with weak or no other trashing around, as many of them as possible on turns 3 to 5. Of course that’s not always going to be the best strategy but most of the time, Sanitarium’s unique abilities will make the decision not to prematurely gain a village non-trivial.
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Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2016, 06:00:50 pm »
0

You and Cookielord played IRL with them?

No, on Tabletop Simulator.

How does this work with something like Dominion? Is there a Dominion client that's a plugin to this? If so, isn't that in conflict with Making Fun?

TS allows mocking up almost any game, and i personally use it as a means of testing a boardgame prototype a friend and i have been working on. It's imaginable Dominion Online and TS might have a conflict sooner or later, although i'm not sure how the boardgame industry as a whole stands on that matter. Apparently some think it's publicity and embrace the idea. Either way, the use cases of both softwares vary a lot. While Tabletop Simulator is fine to test stuff you made yourself (because there's no better way to do it), it's not a comparable experience to an actual Dominion Software. It's pretty slow, and still not as well-arranged as IRL games.

Either way, the issue of TS and Dominion Online is an interesting topic, and i think there's room for discussions here. But maybe not in this thread, if that's okay.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 06:03:36 pm »
+2

Very stunning art, and nice concept! Is like a village + x (think Farming, Mining, Port) but can have great potential in engine decks. I want to focus on the art more. The pink backgroud with the majestic colors? You guys really came through. I've said this before, but when more cards get released, I hope Donald has a comment or two to make. This looks like it could be an actually good expansion set!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2016, 06:15:34 pm »
0

Very stunning art, and nice concept! Is like a village + x (think Farming, Mining, Port) but can have great potential in engine decks. I want to focus on the art more. The pink backgroud with the majestic colors? You guys really came through. I've said this before, but when more cards get released, I hope Donald has a comment or two to make. This looks like it could be an actually good expansion set!

Thanks. Although the potential depends a bit on what kind of engine you want. With 6 cards in hand, it's a Necropolis.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2016, 06:18:59 pm »
+4

Very stunning art, and nice concept! Is like a village + x (think Farming, Mining, Port) but can have great potential in engine decks. I want to focus on the art more. The pink backgroud with the majestic colors? You guys really came through. I've said this before, but when more cards get released, I hope Donald has a comment or two to make. This looks like it could be an actually good expansion set!

Thanks. Although the potential depends a bit on what kind of engine you want. With 6 cards in hand, it's a Necropolis.

But with Necropolis in hand, it's a Lost City ;)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2016, 06:36:13 pm »
0

Very stunning art, and nice concept! Is like a village + x (think Farming, Mining, Port) but can have great potential in engine decks. I want to focus on the art more. The pink backgroud with the majestic colors? You guys really came through. I've said this before, but when more cards get released, I hope Donald has a comment or two to make. This looks like it could be an actually good expansion set!

Thanks. Although the potential depends a bit on what kind of engine you want. With 6 cards in hand, it's a Necropolis.
Then don't have six cards!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2016, 06:41:05 pm »
+1

Sanitarium is the draw-up-to-x village that for some reason still doesn’t exist in Dominion. It comes with a very engine-friendly on-gain bonus that only works in Spring. Otherwise it would be overpowered. The trash-on-gain incentivizes you to gain Sanitarium during the opening and, with weak or no other trashing around, as many of them as possible on turns 3 to 5. Of course that’s not always going to be the best strategy but most of the time, Sanitarium’s unique abilities will make the decision not to prematurely gain a village non-trivial.
I always assumed there was a reason why non-terminal draw-to-x doesn't exist.  With an action-based deck and a card that lets you discard non-actions, you can easily go through your deck each turn (and the fact that this is a village makes it easier to use non-drawing terminals as payload).  I'm not sure this is enough to be overpowered, but it will definitely require testing.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2016, 06:46:24 pm »
0

Sanitarium is the draw-up-to-x village that for some reason still doesn’t exist in Dominion. It comes with a very engine-friendly on-gain bonus that only works in Spring. Otherwise it would be overpowered. The trash-on-gain incentivizes you to gain Sanitarium during the opening and, with weak or no other trashing around, as many of them as possible on turns 3 to 5. Of course that’s not always going to be the best strategy but most of the time, Sanitarium’s unique abilities will make the decision not to prematurely gain a village non-trivial.
I always assumed there was a reason why non-terminal draw-to-x doesn't exist.  With an action-based deck and a card that lets you discard non-actions, you can easily go through your deck each turn (and the fact that this is a village makes it easier to use non-drawing terminals as payload).  I'm not sure this is enough to be overpowered, but it will definitely require testing.

I think we had about 10 test games with Sanitarium. It is definitely quite strong and there are powerful enablers. I'm really not sure if it's overpowered. It seems like it's weaker than a normal village at least as often as it's stronger. But maybe we didn't try to exploit its advantages enough. Who knows what a pro Dominion player would be capable of with this card?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2016, 08:26:31 pm »
+1

Very stunning art, and nice concept! Is like a village + x (think Farming, Mining, Port) but can have great potential in engine decks. I want to focus on the art more. The pink backgroud with the majestic colors? You guys really came through. I've said this before, but when more cards get released, I hope Donald has a comment or two to make. This looks like it could be an actually good expansion set!

The art is kind of... autumny for a card that gives a bonus during spring, isn't it?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2016, 08:26:58 pm »
+2

I always assumed there was a reason why non-terminal draw-to-x doesn't exist.

(Minion, sort of)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2016, 08:31:15 pm »
+2

Very stunning art, and nice concept! Is like a village + x (think Farming, Mining, Port) but can have great potential in engine decks. I want to focus on the art more. The pink backgroud with the majestic colors? You guys really came through. I've said this before, but when more cards get released, I hope Donald has a comment or two to make. This looks like it could be an actually good expansion set!

The art is kind of... autumny for a card that gives a bonus during spring, isn't it?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2016, 08:52:59 pm »
+3

Does the basic idea for Sanitarium come from WanderingWinder's Production Village (from the mini-set design contest) or did it come up independently?

There is some playtesting discussion for Production Village here, which may be interesting to consider.  The card is the same, except Sanitarium has a bonus on-gain effect.  I'm not sure how big a difference that effect makes.  Obviously it's a straight buff, but it could be a balance improvement over PV by improving consistency.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2016, 09:04:03 pm »
0

Does the basic idea for Sanitarium come from WanderingWinder's Production Village (from the mini-set design contest) or did it come up independently?

There is some playtesting discussion for Production Village here, which may be interesting to consider.  The card is the same, except Sanitarium has a bonus on-gain effect.  I'm not sure how big a difference that effect makes.  Obviously it's a straight buff, but it could be a balance improvement over PV by improving consistency.

I suppose a Village with fixed draw is one of the simple but not yet existing ideas you just run into sooner or later. I don't think i actively knew PV existed when i first came up with such a card, but i knew when we were talking about how to make Sanitarium more interesting than just a Village that trashes on spring-gain. As the draw-to is much worse than Village for simple drawing engines, i think it's fine if it's better in other deck types. Personally, i think it's fairly priced.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2016, 09:39:02 pm »
+1

You might change snow witch to something like: 'In Fall or Winter: if this is the first time this turn you play Snow Witch, all other players get a curse' to avoid the 'play 5 witches in a good engine' problem identified before.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2016, 12:01:51 am »
+1

Nice design, bravo!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2016, 12:06:17 am »
+2

Sanitarium is also similar to my Restored Village (which people also compared to Production Village), which is to say I like it but I probably won't use it because I already use a very similar card.


PS: I wish I'd heard of Tabletop simulator when that 50% sale was happening last month...

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2016, 01:46:26 am »
+1

Production Village obviously cannot cost 5$ so 4$ is the right price. Production Village and Outpost is a crazy combo which I encountered in one game (in general Production Village combos of course best with all non-draw terminals such that you draw 2 cards when you PV the second time) and overall I feel that the card is a very good 4$ village, definitely better (on average) than Farming Village and Mining Village, but not overpowered.

As the on-gain bonus of Sanitarium is small and season-conditional I think that Sanitarium should also be OK at 4.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2016, 07:15:21 am »
+1

You might change snow witch to something like: 'In Fall or Winter: if this is the first time this turn you play Snow Witch, all other players get a curse' to avoid the 'play 5 witches in a good engine' problem identified before.

Or we could give the Curse in hand so the other players in line do their first Fall turn under roughly the same conditions. Makes it very easy to trash the Curses with something like Forge, though.

For now i think we should keep it as is, but i guess there are a few options if it doesn't work out. Just giving a single Curse is pretty bad, i think.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2016, 07:23:54 am »
+1

You might change snow witch to something like: 'In Fall or Winter: if this is the first time this turn you play Snow Witch, all other players get a curse' to avoid the 'play 5 witches in a good engine' problem identified before.

Or we could give the Curse in hand so the other players in line do their first Fall turn under roughly the same conditions. Makes it very easy to trash the Curses with something like Forge, though.

For now i think we should keep it as is, but i guess there are a few options if it doesn't work out. Just giving a single Curse is pretty bad, i think.

I actually like this idea quite a lot. I mean, Watchtower makes the cursing equally useless as a Forge in hand would, so it's not really gamebreaking.

Also, if that isn't too complicated for your taste, one could use: "opponents gain a curse in hand. If this is the first time you played a Snow Witch this turn, put the curse into the discard" or something similiar.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2016, 07:30:27 am »
+1

You might change snow witch to something like: 'In Fall or Winter: if this is the first time this turn you play Snow Witch, all other players get a curse' to avoid the 'play 5 witches in a good engine' problem identified before.

Or we could give the Curse in hand so the other players in line do their first Fall turn under roughly the same conditions. Makes it very easy to trash the Curses with something like Forge, though.

For now i think we should keep it as is, but i guess there are a few options if it doesn't work out. Just giving a single Curse is pretty bad, i think.

I actually like this idea quite a lot. I mean, Watchtower makes the cursing equally useless as a Forge in hand would, so it's not really gamebreaking.

Also, if that isn't too complicated for your taste, one could use: "opponents gain a curse in hand. If this is the first time you played a Snow Witch this turn, put the curse into the discard" or something similiar.

It's good to know we have an idea how to make SW less problematic if it should turn out to cause problems after some further testing. Considering season mechanics add complexity on their own, we'd like to keep her as simple as possible otherwise. So if just gaining curses doesn't work, but putting them in hand does, i think that'enouh complexity.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2016, 11:15:03 am »
+2

Sanitarium is another card I've played with, and I'm a big fan of it so far. If the top were just "+1 Card; +2 Actions", it would be an (expensive) regular Village for too much of the game. The "draw up to 5" means the card is just the right amount of exotic.

As to how strong it is, I'm guessing it's probably on the higher end of $4 villages, but still reasonable. It does pretty trivially counter Militia and company, but I don't think that's necessarily a deal-breaker. Tough to say.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2016, 01:15:35 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2016, 01:33:32 pm »
+5

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2016, 04:04:21 pm »
+6

Since most comments on the first two cards have been positive, i'll now dare to post something less straightforward.



There are not many Season cards that do something different each Season, because that requires a lot of text. We thought it would be sad to just have none of those, though, and so we made Sojourner. What you can immediately see is that it uses an expansion-specific mechanic, the VP tokens from Prosperity. Seasons is a set by fans for fans, so we decided to neglect restrictions that would be applied to a "real" Dominion set and included a few cards that used such mechanics.

As a one-shot, this guy only visits your kingdom for a short time. And, depending on the Season he leaves in will also leave something different behind to help you with your engine-y needs. All effects are about two things, which I personally wanted a lot because I felt it added some symmetry. Not sure it makes the bonuses easier to remember, as I also hoped. Winter is not as good as the others, but getting that VP now is better than never, right? It costs $2 so getting it back from the trash for some endless-VP engine is impossible.

Co0kieL0rd will be presenting the next card in the set. Fire when ready, your l0rdship.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2016, 04:09:13 pm »
+2

Why include the +VP at all?  Even without it, it seems like a decent one-shot, especially in the Fall.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2016, 04:09:36 pm »
+3

I can't help but notice that the all the effects are practically the same used by Knights Sylvia, Destry, Anna and Martin. Given that I really like that the card art is of a knight.

Any reason that the trash phrasing is the way it is against what Dame Anna uses: "trash up to 2 cards from your hand."
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2016, 04:13:40 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2016, 04:15:48 pm »
+1

Since most comments on the first two cards have been positive, i'll now dare to post something less straightforward.



There are not many Season cards that do something different each Season, because that requires a lot of text. We thought it would be sad to just have none of those, though, and so we made Sojourner. What you can immediately see is that it uses an expansion-specific mechanic, the VP tokens from Prosperity. Seasons is a set by fans for fans, so we decided to neglect restrictions that would be applied to a "real" Dominion set and included a few cards that used such mechanics.

As a one-shot, this guy only visits your kingdom for a short time. And, depending on the Season he leaves in will also leave something different behind to help you with your engine-y needs. All effects are about two things, which I personally wanted a lot because I felt it added some symmetry. Not sure it makes the bonuses easier to remember, as I also hoped. Winter is not as good as the others, but getting that VP now is better than never, right? It costs $2 so getting it back from the trash for some endless-VP engine is impossible.

Co0kieL0rd will be presenting the next card in the set. Fire when ready, your l0rdship.

My immediate response would be: remove the +1VP-token and add a clause such as 'when you trash this, put it back on the supply'. That would make the card, I think, even more interesting.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2016, 04:17:54 pm »
+1

I like this card quite a bit. It's something I would pretty much always want to pick up on $2, and it will make the game generally more interesting as this looks like a card that takes some skill to utilize. My biggest complaint is that the pink border clashes with the shadowy picture.

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2016, 04:23:11 pm »
+7

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.

He doesn't want to read fan cards because when he creates his own cards, he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2016, 04:24:21 pm »
+2

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.

He doesn't want to read fan cards because when he creates his own cards, he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism.
Makes sense. Personally, I'd be honored if one of my ideas got stolen and made into a card, but I can easily see why others wouldn't like that.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2016, 04:38:57 pm »
+1

I will ask my question again: Where is Donald? Maybe I read somewhere that he doesn't like to comment on fan cards because he doesn't like to break hearts, but this is the most professional fan made expansion I have seen. Are all of the cards seasons, though? That could be good or bad.

He doesn't want to read fan cards because when he creates his own cards, he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism.
Makes sense. Personally, I'd be honored if one of my ideas got stolen and made into a card, but I can easily see why others wouldn't like that.

How likely is it that he will still make new cards?

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2016, 04:41:15 pm »
+1

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

I do appreciate that Sojourner avoids golden decks by being a one-shot. In fact I think you could have such a card be pricier (and therefore gainable from the trash) and it still might never be a problem. I don't really like that the +VP seems a bit tacked-on here, especially since the card is wordy. I do like that the Winter option is weakest, which is when the +VP is strongest.

Maybe if it gave +2 VP it would feel like that part of the card was more significant. Or if the +VP were confined to a season when you don't usually want VP, like Summer (in which case it could be more than +2 VP).

Hopefully I'll get to play with the card soon, and maybe my opinion will change.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 04:46:55 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2016, 04:43:01 pm »
+6

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2016, 04:48:30 pm »
+1

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".

A sentiment I respect, but I hope that there would be a way to persuade him into 'be the guy that allows more cards for people'. But all resepct for him if he doesn't want to.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2016, 04:49:42 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

How likely is it that he will still make new cards?

I don't think we can peg a number, but I'd bet that it's non-zero.  Any chance at all is enough reason for him to avoid looking at fan cards.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2016, 04:50:33 pm »
+2

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

I do appreciate that Sojourner avoids golden decks by being a one-shot. In fact I think you could have such a card be pricier (and therefore gainable from the trash) and it still might never be a problem. I don't really like that the +VP seems a bit tacked-on here, especially since the card is wordy. I do like that the Winter option is weakest, which is when the +VP is strongest.

Maybe if it gave +2 VP it would feel like that part of the card was more significant. Or if the +VP were confined to a season when you don't usually want VP, like Summer (in which case it could be more than +2 VP).

Hopefully I'll get to play with the card soon, and maybe my opinion will change.

In their defense: it's very easy to count vp-tokens. Just like a separate piece of paper. It's harder when it uses stuf like ruins or spoils. But vp-tokens is easy to count. You don't need thé vp-tokens for that.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2016, 04:53:07 pm »
0

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".

I think he said that, when he had to build on a fan card, there would still be a lot of work involved, and so it would be the same effort without the fun. (Will try to answer to the Sojourner comments immediately).

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2016, 04:53:47 pm »
+1

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

That's exactly the reason why I'd delay it. To create the difference in trade off. Now you get the bonus when you are more likely to buy it anyway. I like creating more choices, rather than 'it's optimal to buy here and only then'. But I am not the maker. It's just my sentiment. I like cards with trade offs. (Count is a card I like for this reason.)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2016, 04:56:22 pm »
+3

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

That's exactly the reason why I'd delay it. To create the difference in trade off. Now you get the bonus when you are more likely to buy it anyway. I like creating more choices, rather than 'it's optimal to buy here and only then'. But I am not the maker. It's just my sentiment. I like cards with trade offs. (Count is a card I like for this reason.)

But that's what they're doing by putting the bonus in Spring.  It's normally a bad idea to buy a village that early, but now you have an incentive to do it since it comes with trashing, which is good early.  With the bonus in Spring, there's a trade-off.

With the bonus in Summer, it's just totally optimal to continue buying it Summer, just like you'd usually do with Villages anyway.

With the bonus in Fall or Winter, it's still optimal to continue buying it in Summer because you need the village and the bonus is minimal by that point in the game.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2016, 04:57:54 pm »
+1

I wish there was a way to monetize on fan expansions, in a way that everyone (Donald, the normal distributor and the fan) can profit. I'd buy them all.

From what I know of Donald, I think "profit" is much lower on his priority list than "getting to be the guy who makes the cards".

I think he said that, when he had to build on a fan card, there would still be a lot of work involved, and so it would be the same effort without the fun.

Close. Basically there are two parts to making a card: the idea and the testing (although obviously it's an iterative process unless the first version works perfectly). He has said something like: the ideas are the fun part. For fan cards, he would have to do the work to playtest them anyway (and he did for Summon).

In reality, making the ideas and doing the playtesting are both fun. But I understand that he'd rather be the one having the idea-making fun as well.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2016, 05:30:56 pm »
+1

Why include the +VP at all?  Even without it, it seems like a decent one-shot, especially in the Fall.

One problem with a card that does something different each Season is that you might be unlucky and not be able to play it in a certain Season. We decided it should have one bonus the card always gives so you can at least rely on that. It's true that this bonus doesn't necessarily have to be a VP. It could have been a Village, but that's bad in Spring, or gain cards, which - depending on what you gain - could enable you to empty the Sojourner pile in one turn. But, as said, the cards are not set in stone. Sojourner in fact had some last-minute changes made to it just yesterday.

I can't help but notice that the all the effects are practically the same used by Knights Sylvia, Destry, Anna and Martin. Given that I really like that the card art is of a knight.

Any reason that the trash phrasing is the way it is against what Dame Anna uses: "trash up to 2 cards from your hand."

Thanks. And, actually, i'm not sure there was a reason. Co0kieL0rd?

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

I do appreciate that Sojourner avoids golden decks by being a one-shot. In fact I think you could have such a card be pricier (and therefore gainable from the trash) and it still might never be a problem. I don't really like that the +VP seems a bit tacked-on here, especially since the card is wordy. I do like that the Winter option is weakest, which is when the +VP is strongest.

Maybe if it gave +2 VP it would feel like that part of the card was more significant. Or if the +VP were confined to a season when you don't usually want VP, like Summer (in which case it could be more than +2 VP).

Hopefully I'll get to play with the card soon, and maybe my opinion will change.

I see you share eHalcyon's opinion on the VP. Hm. I can't promise anything, but this feedback will give Co0kieL0rd and me a bit to think about. It's a bit easier to reply to remarks like this when you do your cards alone as you can just say "Will do"/"Won't do". So i can just say that opinions and ideas brought up here are very valuable to both of us :)

About the idea to give VP in only one specific Season, it might have been there for a while. Personally, i dislike the idea of a card that requires special components and that might get (decently) used in a game without the components ever mattering. It's a bit more likely for a one-shot, as it doesn't stay around for the Seasons to come.

The idea to have it give +2VP seems also interesting, although we might not be able to justify the price anymore, then. Maybe if we removed the +1Action? Hm, still seems really good. Either way, is +2 Cards, +2VP something you want to have in Fall? Hm, maybe, if you prepared for that. Trash two Estates in Summer, keep the VP? Also nice, and even has some sort of elegance. And +2VP, +$2 causes no problem in Spring, as there is a lower risk of terminal collision. The VP still work in Winter. Very interesting. But i'm getting ahead, i'm sure CL will have his share of ideas on this, too.

Given that the game starts in spring, why not put Sanitarium in Summer, so that there is an incentive to delay buying Sanitarium? Now, there is little reason not to buy it in your very first turn/two turns.

Summer is about when you'd be loading up on villages anyway. Spring is earlier than you might want to buy them ordinarily.

Ah, that's what me and my friends do wrong. But do you understand my point of delaying the advantage of doing it when you normally wouldn't?

Trashing is most impactful early in the game.  If you delay it (say, putting it off until Fall) you'll still want to buy it in the Summer because you need +actions and delaying would hurt your deck a lot, and you won't be particularly interested in buying it later because you'll already have villages and the trashing won't make much of a difference at that point in the game.

That's exactly the reason why I'd delay it. To create the difference in trade off. Now you get the bonus when you are more likely to buy it anyway. I like creating more choices, rather than 'it's optimal to buy here and only then'. But I am not the maker. It's just my sentiment. I like cards with trade offs. (Count is a card I like for this reason.)

But that's what they're doing by putting the bonus in Spring.  It's normally a bad idea to buy a village that early, but now you have an incentive to do it since it comes with trashing, which is good early.  With the bonus in Spring, there's a trade-off.

With the bonus in Summer, it's just totally optimal to continue buying it Summer, just like you'd usually do with Villages anyway.

With the bonus in Fall or Winter, it's still optimal to continue buying it in Summer because you need the village and the bonus is minimal by that point in the game.

Yes, that was our idea behind it. Get a Village before you need it and be rewarded. Fall is turns 10 to 15, which is where some games will already have you greening. I don't think any amount of trashing (without benefit) would make waiting that long to get a Village attractive.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2016, 05:45:06 pm »
+3

Between Asper and myself, I think I've always been the one who was more in favour of +1VP on Sojourner. I think it fits nicely thematically - he's an honourable guest to your kingdom or whatever. Mechanically, the VP bonus is what makes the Sojourner split actually important in very close (2 player) games. Raising it to +2VP, like LFN suggested, is an option to emphasize that factor even more so I'm going to think about that.

Besides, I have no problem with using material from other expansions, especially VP or coin tokens which you can easily replace with pennies or a tally or what have you. One of our cards uses Ruins though so if want to play with the full set but don't own Dark Ages I recommend you get the expansion (it's one of the best IMO) oryou just can't play with that one Season card. Sad thing but not a reason to waste any potential fpr card mechanics. Also I think there should be more Looters in Dominion.

The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

When designing the card we didn't think about Knights at all. Maybe it doesn't say "trash up to" to save a line of text. But it also makes the card slightly more edgy - in the unlikely case you draw Sojourner in summer with 4 other cards that contains less than 2 you want to trash, it's not the end of the world; just save it and play it next time you see it. If it's in fall, you get to do something different and perhaps that's just what you need in that turn.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 05:49:45 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2016, 05:48:22 pm »
+2

I like the card as-is. I don't like the idea of removing the +1 Action to make it +2 VP mainly because a one-shot card is supposed to be powerful, and removing the action making a much bigger differenece in strength than changing +1 VP to +2 VP. I also like having the VP there. In games with only one VP token card, a few VP tokens from cards like this make a significant difference. Seems to me, lots of my games end with the provinces evenly split, so you have to watch the extra bits of VP that make the difference.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2016, 06:00:52 pm »
+1


The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

That's a fair point, but for a one-shot, I find the card a bit underwhelming. I can't immediately come up with situations where this would be an important point of a strategy. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to use this card? (I am nto saying you must in order to defend the card: the card is interesting as it is, I am just not sure I'd buy it a lot.)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2016, 06:12:27 pm »
0


The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

That's a fair point, but for a one-shot, I find the card a bit underwhelming. I can't immediately come up with situations where this would be an important point of a strategy. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to use this card? (I am nto saying you must in order to defend the card: the card is interesting as it is, I am just not sure I'd buy it a lot.)

If Sojourner is the only card in the kingdom that does what no other card does in at least one season, it should be worth buying. E.g. if it's the only trasher you want to buy a couple of them early, or if it's the only +buy and your deck has a lot of $ payload having them ready in winter might be a key to victory. One situation I can think of right now where the VP matter is where all players have the same points and the game is almost over and the player who gets to play their Sojourners before the others and end the game wins.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2016, 06:47:13 pm »
+2


The card started off returning to the Supply instead of being trashed but we changed it in order to avoid endless mid-turn gain shenanigans exploiting the card's ability in a particular season (especially in fall, which has the strongest effect). There are only those 10 Sojourners available so the time you gain and, even more importantly, play them should be a key point of any strategy that uses Sojourners.

That's a fair point, but for a one-shot, I find the card a bit underwhelming. I can't immediately come up with situations where this would be an important point of a strategy. Do you happen to have any suggestions on how to use this card? (I am nto saying you must in order to defend the card: the card is interesting as it is, I am just not sure I'd buy it a lot.)

If Sojourner is the only card in the kingdom that does what no other card does in at least one season, it should be worth buying. E.g. if it's the only trasher you want to buy a couple of them early, or if it's the only +buy and your deck has a lot of $ payload having them ready in winter might be a key to victory. One situation I can think of right now where the VP matter is where all players have the same points and the game is almost over and the player who gets to play their Sojourners before the others and end the game wins.

Yup, that makes sense. Interesting card, for sure.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2016, 07:01:38 pm »
+5

I have to say that as good as certain fan cards and fan sets have been, this is the first time that I've ever felt an actual desire to print fan cards to play with them.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2016, 07:02:22 pm »
+1

I guess the good thing about the VP is that, no matter when you play it, and no matter how good you did at that, at least you got that point. Nobody can take that from you. So even if you are unsure you did the right thing getting Sojourner, that point stays and says you got some use out of it.

Also, in the opening it helps you spike $5, like with a Silver, but without a Silver staying in your deck afterwards. That might be a good move when you want to create a really tight, treasureless engine that depends on such a key $5. For now that's the theory, at least...

I have to say that as good as certain fan cards and fan sets have been, this is the first time that I've ever felt an actual desire to print fan cards to play with them.

:))
Wow, thanks. I hope what's to come doesn't disappoint. We got some of my favourites to come still, but also some closer to WIP.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2016, 07:14:30 pm »
+2

I have to say that as good as certain fan cards and fan sets have been, this is the first time that I've ever felt an actual desire to print fan cards to play with them.

Thank you, this is very flattering. Thanks to everyone for supporting us so enthusiastically although we only released 3 cards so far. We'll keep them coming and it probably won't take 3 days between cards ;)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2016, 07:27:37 pm »
+2

If you wanted to avoid using VP chips, you could have Sojourner set itself aside instead of trashing itself.  Make it worth 1 VP if it's set aside.  Disadvantage: more text, less thematic.

Personally I don't care if it uses VP chips.  I have VP chips, after all.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2016, 08:02:53 pm »
+1

Besides, I have no problem with using material from other expansions, especially VP or coin tokens which you can easily replace with pennies or a tally or what have you. One of our cards uses Ruins though so if want to play with the full set but don't own Dark Ages I recommend you get the expansion (it's one of the best IMO) oryou just can't play with that one Season card. Sad thing but not a reason to waste any potential fpr card mechanics. Also I think there should be more Looters in Dominion.

I am not one of those people who carries all his Dominion with him; there's too much of it. Usually I will take the base cards and then 3 sets. The tokens (including VP tokens) I always carry. The Ruins are in the Dark Ages box, though. So a single Looter in another set means that I have three options:

1. Always bring Dark Ages when I bring Seasons.
2. Just move the Looter to my Dark Ages box.
3. Don't use the Looter from Seasons at all.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2016, 08:13:47 pm »
+2

Besides, I have no problem with using material from other expansions, especially VP or coin tokens which you can easily replace with pennies or a tally or what have you. One of our cards uses Ruins though so if want to play with the full set but don't own Dark Ages I recommend you get the expansion (it's one of the best IMO) oryou just can't play with that one Season card. Sad thing but not a reason to waste any potential fpr card mechanics. Also I think there should be more Looters in Dominion.

I am not one of those people who carries all his Dominion with him; there's too much of it. Usually I will take the base cards and then 3 sets. The tokens (including VP tokens) I always carry. The Ruins are in the Dark Ages box, though. So a single Looter in another set means that I have three options:

1. Always bring Dark Ages when I bring Seasons.
2. Just move the Looter to my Dark Ages box.
3. Don't use the Looter from Seasons at all.

I guess another option would be to put some of the Ruins in the Seasons box.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2016, 08:24:13 pm »
+7

Besides, I have no problem with using material from other expansions, especially VP or coin tokens which you can easily replace with pennies or a tally or what have you. One of our cards uses Ruins though so if want to play with the full set but don't own Dark Ages I recommend you get the expansion (it's one of the best IMO) oryou just can't play with that one Season card. Sad thing but not a reason to waste any potential fpr card mechanics. Also I think there should be more Looters in Dominion.

I am not one of those people who carries all his Dominion with him; there's too much of it. Usually I will take the base cards and then 3 sets. The tokens (including VP tokens) I always carry. The Ruins are in the Dark Ages box, though. So a single Looter in another set means that I have three options:

1. Always bring Dark Ages when I bring Seasons.
2. Just move the Looter to my Dark Ages box.
3. Don't use the Looter from Seasons at all.

4. Or carry a set of Ruins with you.

Seriously, I'm not going to tell anyone what to do. I'd just like to design my fan cards freely and pleasing for my taste. Of course, in this set Asper has an equal say so if most people are opposed to a Seasons Looter or Asper isn't convinced it's a good idea anymore, we might do something else. But only because you guys have been so positive towards the set :)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2016, 09:24:10 pm »
+1

Is it crucial for this card to be a Looter instead of just a Curser?  Could it potentially use other junk, like Estates or Copper?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2016, 10:03:59 pm »
+1

No, no guys, you miss the obvious solution: Season Ruins!
(I'm kidding here, this is a horrible idea. No, i mean it, everytime somebody makes a joke like this, somebody else will say "Maybe that's not so bad.". But it is bad. Very bad.)

Seriously, I'm not going to tell anyone what to do. I'd just like to design my fan cards freely and pleasing for my taste. Of course, in this set Asper has an equal say so if most people are opposed to a Seasons Looter or Asper isn't convinced it's a good idea anymore, we might do something else. But only because you guys have been so positive towards the set :)

Well, i always try to change my mind when people point out things i didn't notice yet. Take Snow Witch. Until it was asked, i didn't really notice how it can increase the P1 advantage. Of course, that's something every Season card needs to care about, but it's worse with a junker. That seems like such a dumb mistake, given how important it was to me to make sure every player can play his opening buys in Spring. I still don't think Snow Witch needs changing for now, but it's going to make me look at the card a little different in the future.

That said, i'd like to wait until the Looter is revealed before we discuss it. By then everybody will be able to talk knowing the actual card. Just, to answer eHalcyon's question:

Is it crucial for this card to be a Looter instead of just a Curser?  Could it potentially use other junk, like Estates or Copper?

I think it's crucial in the same sense it's crucial to Marauder or Cultist - Curses would be too strong, Estates are too few, Coppers too many. Of course, there's always the option to replace it with a different attack, but that's another card. Again, i don't feel i should reveal too much on my own, so it would be nice if we could postpone this a bit.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2016, 06:36:58 am »
+2

I doubt that the majority of Dominion players who actually use fan cards do not have all sets so the notion that stuff from official expansions should not be used is unnecessarily restrictive. And as Cookielord has pointed out, you can use any kind of tokens for VP tokens or XYZ tokens in general.
About Sojourner, it would probably also be good if it were terminal or not provide a VP. But it does not seem overpowered (if a bit forced if there are no (decent) trashers in the kingdom) and it is above all just a one-shot so balance is not that important in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 06:47:24 am by tristan »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2016, 09:15:26 am »
+1

Besides, I have no problem with using material from other expansions, especially VP or coin tokens which you can easily replace with pennies or a tally or what have you. One of our cards uses Ruins though so if want to play with the full set but don't own Dark Ages I recommend you get the expansion (it's one of the best IMO) oryou just can't play with that one Season card. Sad thing but not a reason to waste any potential fpr card mechanics. Also I think there should be more Looters in Dominion.

I am not one of those people who carries all his Dominion with him; there's too much of it. Usually I will take the base cards and then 3 sets. The tokens (including VP tokens) I always carry. The Ruins are in the Dark Ages box, though. So a single Looter in another set means that I have three options:

1. Always bring Dark Ages when I bring Seasons.
2. Just move the Looter to my Dark Ages box.
3. Don't use the Looter from Seasons at all.

I would think the solution would be to move ruins to wherever you keep the other "always needed" cards. Unless you just bring the small base-cards box with you.

But now that I think about it, Ruins is a lot of cards for stuff that is only used by a total of 3 kingdom cards. VP chips are also only used by 3 cards, but at least that's a smaller component.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2016, 11:26:05 am »
+2

No, no guys, you miss the obvious solution: Season Ruins!
Maybe that's not so bad.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2016, 11:57:20 am »
+4

No, no guys, you miss the obvious solution: Season Ruins!
Maybe that's not so bad.
[NotSerious]
Perpetual Wasteland
$0-Ruins
In Spring, +1 Card
In Summer, +1 Action
In Fall, +1 Buy
In Winter, +$1
[/NotSerious]
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2016, 12:10:17 pm »
0

No, no guys, you miss the obvious solution: Season Ruins!
Maybe that's not so bad.
[Serious]
Perpetual Wasteland
$0-Ruins
In Spring, +1 Card
In Summer, +1 Action
In Fall, +1 Buy
In Winter, +$1
[/Serious]
This idea doesn't appeal to me.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2016, 12:27:12 pm »
+1

I'm planning a future investment in about 80 fancards I found on the internet (majority of them on these forums) to print and add to my dominion sets, as soon as I have found a cheap way to do so.

I actually prefer investing in fancards than 'regular' expansions (although I want prosperity for sure in addition to the ones I have) because I can play with the regular cards online (and the place where I usually play dominion has several boxes in the closet 'free to play'). These seasons cards definitely look like ones I would also add to this collection.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2016, 12:29:06 pm »
0

I doubt that the majority of Dominion players who actually use fan cards do not have all sets so the notion that stuff from official expansions should not be used is unnecessarily restrictive.

I actually prefer investing in fancards than 'regular' expansions (although I want prosperity for sure in addition to the ones I have) because I can play with the regular cards online (and the place where I usually play dominion has several boxes in the closet 'free to play').

Hmm…
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2016, 12:32:15 pm »
+1

I doubt that the majority of Dominion players who actually use fan cards do not have all sets so the notion that stuff from official expansions should not be used is unnecessarily restrictive.

I actually prefer investing in fancards than 'regular' expansions (although I want prosperity for sure in addition to the ones I have) because I can play with the regular cards online (and the place where I usually play dominion has several boxes in the closet 'free to play').

Hmm…
Maybe I am a statistical outlier. Also: I'd say: if you think a card needs to be a looter, keep it a looter. The fact that (good) fan cards provide an additional incentive to buy the regular expansions is a net positive, imo, not a net negative.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2016, 01:42:10 pm »
+3

Also: I'd say: if you think a card needs to be a looter, keep it a looter.

Thank you, brain, for reading that as "lobster".
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2016, 01:58:55 pm »
+2

Oh, by the way, i'd like to thank Co0kieL0rd for suggesting to do this set together. We both brought in a lot of ideas and had equal say, but it was him who kicked this off. As somebody who never can get himself up to actually do something, i'm very glad he asked me. It's been a very fun experience and it's cool to see the mechanic we developed together is received this well :)

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2016, 05:32:47 am »
0

I'm planning a future investment in about 80 fancards I found on the internet (majority of them on these forums) to print and add to my dominion sets, as soon as I have found a cheap way to do so.
Printing them will most likely cost more than double of what you would pay for official cards (where I print them they cost around 0.2€ / card).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2016, 05:56:55 am »
0

I'm planning a future investment in about 80 fancards I found on the internet (majority of them on these forums) to print and add to my dominion sets, as soon as I have found a cheap way to do so.
Printing them will most likely cost more than double of what you would pay for official cards (where I print them they cost around 0.2€ / card).

I know. :(
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2016, 01:28:54 pm »
+2

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

Even without using 'set this card aside' text like on this card like on island, can't you just use this card itself as a VP token?  Whether this card is in the trash or in my play area makes no difference to any existing card, right?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2016, 01:50:44 pm »
+1

I am loving the new concept and concur with the earlier sentiment that this is one of few occasions where I am looking forward to printing out and playing someone else's full custom card set. Please unveil the next one!

And to weigh in on the discussion of components from other expansions: I have no problem with a fan set drawing on components found in one expansion only (I have done the same). This is especially true for tokens, where anything can be used to mark it, not only the official pieces. I don't own Guilds, but it wouldn't stop me from using pennies as coin tokens (what other use is there for pennies?) if I wanted to play with the card. Ruins are a bit trickier, but it's a print-to-play expansion, so if someone doesn't have Ruins, they don't have to print the card, eh?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2016, 03:40:00 pm »
+4

As I'm sure Asper and Co0kieL0rd have guessed, I'm not so hot on fan sets having just one or two cards that require components from another set. If I don't have Prosperity then I can't use this, etc., etc. But I'll put that aside for a moment.

Even without using 'set this card aside' text like on this card like on island, can't you just use this card itself as a VP token?  Whether this card is in the trash or in my play area makes no difference to any existing card, right?

 To the throne room family it does make a difference
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2016, 07:04:22 pm »
+5

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!



As your cities prosper they draw more and more attention from merchants who arrive at your ports with greedy desire to enhance their wealth and sell trinkets and junk to your people. Of course you don’t care if your subjects get hornswoggled as long as the merchants pay their tolls. However, they do not appreciate the cold of Winter and will not come during that Season. And you really could have used those buys!

Trade Port, once played, like Hireling, stays in play forever and gives you a small but significant bonus each turn except in Winter. It’s a good card for building an engine, providing you non-terminal +buy each turn, but while greening you have to rely on other sources of payload barring very fast games that end in Fall. Most decks seem to want a Trade Port but I think we haven’t played a single game where anyone bought more than one.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 08:11:08 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2016, 07:57:40 pm »
0

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2016, 08:03:37 pm »
0

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2016, 08:08:53 pm »
+1

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.
If he was joking, I don't think he'd say 'genuinely.'

I like the card, though. Seems about average for a $5 cost, and is very, very thematic.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2016, 08:11:42 pm »
+5

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.

I am serious.  The cold thing isn't even the big one (that's a mild joking Canadian thing); the term "Oriental" is actually offensive.  It's antiquated and calls back to Bad Times in the past.  You shouldn't use it (or at least think twice before you do), for the same reason you wouldn't normally call somebody a Negro.  That this is for a game in a fictional setting isn't really an excuse.  So, I am sure you mean well, but I'd appreciate it if that particular line was edited.  Maybe refer to merchants or something instead of using an antiquated term that homogenizes an entire continent of diverse peoples.  I'll end it there because this is already well into RSP territory.




On the card itself - I'm guessing the mechanisms here are more driven by flavour than is usual in Dominion?  It's interesting.  +$1 every turn is similar to Treasury (and IIRC, that's how the concept for Treasury began).  This throws in the +1 Buy as well and, unlike Treasury, it doesn't get lost after buying a Victory card.  However, it does go dry every Winter.  In that way, it seems to be good for building up the engine but it doesn't help you as much during the end game.

In your playtests, how much does Winter affect strategy around this card?  If Treasury is on the board, what do you do and why?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2016, 08:15:54 pm »
0

Thanks for changing it.  Now I'm not sure if I should edit the commentary as well...
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2016, 08:17:59 pm »
+2

If only those wussy Orientals weren’t so sensitive to cold.

As a Chinese Canadian, I am genuinely offended by this.  I am sure you mean well, but still. :(

I can't tell if you're serious but if so, I'm sorry. Although I'd like to point out this is just a sarcastic joke at the expensive of theoretical Orientals in a fantasy board game setting which are not related to actual Orientals.

I am serious.  The cold thing isn't even the big one (that's a mild joking Canadian thing); the term "Oriental" is actually offensive.  It's antiquated and calls back to Bad Times in the past.  You shouldn't use it (or at least think twice before you do), for the same reason you wouldn't normally call somebody a Negro.  That this is for a game in a fictional setting isn't really an excuse.  So, I am sure you mean well, but I'd appreciate it if that particular line was edited.  Maybe refer to merchants or something instead of using an antiquated term that homogenizes an entire continent of diverse peoples.  I'll end it there because this is already well into RSP territory.

Oh man, I didn't know that! :( You really shouldn't feel offended by me, though. Of course I mean well! But I'll refrain from using that term from now on. I blame dict.leo.org for not marking the word as pejorative when I looked it up.

On the card itself - I'm guessing the mechanisms here are more driven by flavour than is usual in Dominion?  It's interesting.  +$1 every turn is similar to Treasury (and IIRC, that's how the concept for Treasury began).  This throws in the +1 Buy as well and, unlike Treasury, it doesn't get lost after buying a Victory card.  However, it does go dry every Winter.  In that way, it seems to be good for building up the engine but it doesn't help you as much during the end game.

In your playtests, how much does Winter affect strategy around this card?  If Treasury is on the board, what do you do and why?

Of course Trade Port would be strictly better than Treasury without the Winter drawback so we couldn't have that. It's still pretty good but I must admit we recently changed it without playtesting this version. The previous, tested version said "At the start of each of your turns, until this leaves play: +1 Buy, +$1, and in Winter discard this from play." This meant you could still play this in Winter to get the +buy next turn which was actually significant if it was the only source of +buy.
LastFootnote mentioned this was incompatible with official rules for Durations and suggested the above wording which we like for its simplicity. But it behaves differently now and we have only theoretically evaluated the impact on Trade Port's performance.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 08:26:40 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2016, 08:42:03 pm »
+3

Of course Trade Port would be strictly better than Treasury without the Winter drawback so we couldn't have that. It's still pretty good but I must admit we recently changed it without playtesting this version. The previous, tested version said "At the start of each of your turns, until this leaves play: +1 Buy, +$1, and in Winter discard this from play." This meant you could still play this in Winter to get the +buy next turn which was actually significant if it was the only source of +buy.
LastFootnote mentioned this was incompatible with official rules for Durations and suggested the above wording which we like for its simplicity. But it behaves differently now and we have only theoretically evaluated the impact on Trade Port's performance.

The change should make it weaker, right?  Granted, having the card go back into your deck could a drawback (it is just a Herbalist on the initial play), but being able to get the +Buy during the Winter could be a big deal.

FWIW, a legal alternative wording that I think matches your original version could be, "At the start of each of your turns until the next Winter..." though that might be a bit confusing for whether it applies on the first turn of Winter.  Ah - "until the start of your next Winter turn" might work, and it matches the wording of the attack durations.

Oh, random new thought - you should use Autumn instead of Fall.  Way classier. ;)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2016, 06:20:02 am »
+2

I do think Trade Port is better than Treasury. It can't get hit by attacks, gives a buy, and allows picking up green cards early. We have played games that never saw a Winter, although those are not common. On the other hand, Treasury, much like Lab when compared to Hireling, actually does something the turns it's played in, and needs not fear terminal collision. Also unlike Trade Port, it doesn't just stop doing anything. Instead, it becomes a Peddler. I'm not sure i'd pick up Treasury on many boards that have Trade Port, honestly. Colony Games might work, or games with a lot of junking that easily go into Winter for other reasons. I almost listed VP token cards, as those avoid buying Victory cards, but i don't think any works good with Treasury. Goons actively harms it. Games where you gain your VP cards rather than buy them would also work, but man, when do you need Treasury, then?

I guess in general is better than Trade Port the later in the game you are. It's not like you couldn't buy one or two Trade Ports, and then, when Winter approaches, switch for Treasuries. But yes, we're aware of the similarities, and it has been a constant topic when discussing Trade Port.

Also, the theme is actually that your Port freezes over in Winter.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2016, 07:14:14 am »
+1

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!



I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2016, 07:42:22 am »
0

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2016, 08:04:33 am »
+1

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

True, the card is basically always better when it's not winter. Mmm. One way to make it slightly worse is add a 'discard a card' clause if you want to use the effect (similar to Oasis.)

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2016, 08:19:39 am »
0

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

True, the card is basically always better when it's not winter. Mmm. One way to make it slightly worse is add a 'discard a card' clause if you want to use the effect (similar to Oasis.)

It's worse on the turn you play it, but yes, it's basically always better besides this. Not that Treasury is very good, but it's something we haven't found an elegant solution to, yet.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2016, 08:22:07 am »
+1

Here is card number four – enjoy and discuss!

I'd say that it's almost by design that you wouldn't want more than one Trade Port? I mean: +1 buy is nice, but +2 buys gets a little bit... much, probably. (It can happen, but if you want a megaturn where you can buy more than 2 victory cards in one turn, you usually have other possibilities for + buys.)

I'd almost suggest something like: if you have more than one, than you get additional bonusses. It complicates the card, but it also incentivizes buying more than one. If you are into that sort of stuff.

Well, it's cutting close to being strictly better than Treasury either way, so i'd rather avoid boosting it even further. I do think there is room to tweak this particular one, but i'd rather have it be something that's sometimes good and sometimes bad - if just to differentiate it more from Treasury.

True, the card is basically always better when it's not winter. Mmm. One way to make it slightly worse is add a 'discard a card' clause if you want to use the effect (similar to Oasis.)

It's worse on the turn you play it, but yes, it's basically always better besides this. Not that Treasury is very good, but it's something we haven't found an elegant solution to, yet.

'every time you use the plus buy from trade port, gain a copper'? I am just throwing things out here at this point, if you are looking for ways to make it ever so slightly worse. Or make it *either* +$1 or +1 buy? That probably might make it too weak.

And what about a cost increase? Does +6 make it too expensive? What's the strength of Trade Port in a 2/5 opening?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 08:26:59 am by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2016, 09:03:57 am »
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Well, it's strongest if you can open with it. But i don't think it's actually overpowered, so my biggest concern is making it feel more different, not making it weaker.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2016, 10:18:42 am »
+1

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2016, 10:46:00 am »
+2

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2016, 10:54:08 am »
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From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...

I thought about allowing other players to gain Estates as a Winter effect, but that would be a straight nerf. Junking them with Estates just feels too "attack-y". We could, however, go back to a variant that returns to your deck and just does nothing -which i think was the main reason we never got more than one before. Like

"Until Winter, at the start of each of your turns: +1 Buy, +$1. (This stays in play until Winter)"

Season advancement seems cool, but, well... Spoilers gonna spoil.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2016, 10:59:15 am »
+5

Season advancement seems cool, but, well... Spoilers gonna spoil.

Asper does not yet want to spill the event of the set:

Winter is coming
Event - $2
Move the season marker to the next field.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2016, 11:19:01 am »
+2

I was wondering, is it bad to make it not work in Fall or Winter, and bump the price down a bit?  I think that would differentiate it a bit more.  Maybe give it a bit of an on-play effect to make up for the times you see it in Fall and Winter?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2016, 11:34:13 am »
+1

Season advancement seems cool, but, well... Spoilers gonna spoil.

Asper does not yet want to spill the event of the set:

Winter is coming
Event - $2
Move the season marker to the next field.
I don't think you're serious, but that actually looks really cool.
+1
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2016, 11:58:25 am »
+1

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...

Cause it's a temporal Market-Hireling :)

I'm pretty sure that if Trade Port wouldn't have the Winter restriction, it would be still worse than Hireling because Trade port does not increase the reliability of your turn, so I'm pretty sure the pricing is accurate.

Have you considered to use the -1 token as the Winter penalty? I would actually love this since this makes you want to get more of them (The penalty is unique) so you can end the game earlier. It could even get a buff earlier to make up for it.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2016, 12:50:24 pm »
+1

I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the input right now. Sorry, i'll reply to the rest later. Got to do stuff for university. My sincere apologies for that...

Cause it's a temporal Market-Hireling :)

Hireling is a lasting +1 Card. Treasury is a lasting +$1. Trade Port is a lasting +1Buy, +$1. It's more similar to Treasury than to Hireling, even though it uses the mechanic of the latter.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2016, 12:52:16 pm »
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How about the +1 buy and the forgotten gains mechanic (gain a copper in your hand if you need it).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2016, 01:29:59 pm »
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I have noticed something about the comparison between Trade Port and Treasury - point that hasn't come up yet but I think is very significant. While a single Trade Port is almost strictly better than a single Treasury, the latter is easily spammable with little downside. However, each additional Trade Port you gain before Winter is worse than the one you gained before because it will be effectual for fewer turns overall.
As the most recent game Asper, LastFootnote and I played clearly showed, spamming Trade Ports is extremely slow and expensive and in Winter you lose a bunch of payload. So not only am I convinced now that Trade Port is balanced as-is, I'm also growing fond of the idea of giving you an incentive to buy them in multiples. Drsteelhammer made a good suggestion:

From what I can tell, this card is pretty balanced, if not a bit on the weaker side. I don't think "better than Treasury" is a legitimate comparison at all for this.

If you want to tweak this card, giving some incentive to get several of them might be nice. But I quite like it the way it is.

Why don't you think it's a legitimate comparison?  Do you think that Treasury is too weak as it is?  Do you expect this card to be different enough?


@OPs, some easy ways to differentiate it from Treasury... +1 action instead of +$1? No bonus in an earlier season?  Both of those hurt the theme a lot though.  Maybe it could accelerate season advancement somehow?  Or it could have a different effect in the Fall (+2 Buys instead?) and/or an actively negative effect in the Winter (discard a card from your hand?), which could allow you to make the earlier bonuses more exciting as well...

Cause it's a temporal Market-Hireling :)

I'm pretty sure that if Trade Port wouldn't have the Winter restriction, it would be still worse than Hireling because Trade port does not increase the reliability of your turn, so I'm pretty sure the pricing is accurate.

Have you considered to use the -1 token as the Winter penalty? I would actually love this since this makes you want to get more of them (The penalty is unique) so you can end the game earlier. It could even get a buff earlier to make up for it.

I like it assuming you mean Trade Port stays effectual even in Winter and in addition gives you the -$1 token then. That would make TP too similar to another Season card, though. But it's the one I'm least convinced about so I'm going to talk with Asper about possible changes to that.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2016, 01:31:47 pm »
+1

Isn't this an almost permanent market?

How is trade port not also strictly better than market, except in winter?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2016, 01:39:15 pm »
+1

Isn't this an almost permanent market?

How is trade port not also strictly better than market, except in winter?

Please look at my previous post in which I emphasize the important difference between comparing individual cards and spamming copies of them. The same point can be made for Market. It's much more spammable than Trade Port.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #125 on: January 17, 2016, 01:48:08 pm »
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True, but in a deck with both trade port and
Market: why would you buy a market (except for in winter)?

How many +1 buy, +$1 would you need? And that's just for a single turn.

Yes, you can spam it.
But how useful would it be, given opportunitycosts? I am not sure when you already have a trade port, market would pass the silver test.
Although not necessarily devastating, it does make one wonder, I think. No?

Have you tried a game with trade port,
Market and Treasury?

Cause I am curious how many, if any, would be bought. My estimate: you but a trade port asap, and then it becomes very contigent on specific circumstances wether or not you buy market/treasury. But could be wrong.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 01:50:33 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #126 on: January 17, 2016, 02:02:47 pm »
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True, but in a deck with both trade port and
Market: why would you buy a market (except for in winter)?

How many +1 buy, +$1 would you need? And that's just for a single turn.

Yes, you can spam it.
But how useful would it be, given opportunitycosts? I am not sure when you already have a trade port, market would pass the silver test.
Although not necessarily devastating, it does make one wonder, I think. No?

Have you tried a game with trade port,
Market and Treasury?

Cause I am curious how many, if any, would be bought. My estimate: you but a trade port asap, and then it becomes very contigent on specific circumstances wether or not you buy market/treasury. But could be wrong.

The fact that a card isn't strictly better than another one doesn't mean it isn't better. If a board had Farming Village, Walled Village and Wandering Minstrel, would you buy Walled Village? On a board with Chapel, would you buy Trade Route? Would you buy Trade Route at all? Treasury and Market are not exactly good cards, so the fact that you won't often buy them doesn't tell you much.

If we are late in the game and i didn't already pick up a +Buy piece, and am drawing a lot of my deck, a Market is as good or better than Trade Port, because it will provide me with the buy i need and be more useful in the time remaining. That's enough to work.

Of course, if i already have a Trade Port, i'll think twice about that - but not everybody gets a Trade Port as fast as he can. There are other cards you might want to get at that point, instead. For example, i can hardly see myself skipping Witch for Trade Port, and once Curses are dealt out, isn't it too late to get a Trade Port over a Market?

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2016, 02:08:01 pm »
+2

All true. I am sorry I come across attacking. That's not my intention.

Here is, maybe, a broader point: I think it's fine that when there is a chapel, you wouldn't buy trade route. However, I'd refrain from making fan cards that are both *similar* and (in a lot of cases) almost (not universal) strictly better than existing cards. Your point is correct: there are situations where market/treasury is better than trade port, but they seem minor and those cards do similar and work similar. (Although trade port seems better in a lot of cases.)

This is not necessarily a problem. And, more importantly, I could very well be wrong in my estimate on the amount of situations where trade port is better than market/treasury. Maybe I am totally overestimaing it. I am, after all, just theorycrafting here.

But *if* I am right, then I'd consider that an argument to tweek it too make it less similar.

But I could be wrong.

I hope my priors on this, sort of the background theory where I am coming from, is not unreasonable to you. If you disagree, that's obviously fine. I have a low degree of certainty in my views on this anyway, but I'd thought I'd share them, to give an alternative view.

I am trying my own fan cards. They aren't as well thought out, beautifully designed or playtested as these. But one thing I try to do is try to think of similar cards and not make them almost universally stricly better. (Wether or not I am succeeding is a different matter...)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 02:24:02 pm by AdrianHealey »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #128 on: January 17, 2016, 02:13:02 pm »
+1

If a board had Farming Village, Walled Village and Wandering Minstrel, would you buy Walled Village?

I think you just summoned an Awaclus.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2016, 02:17:21 pm »
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If a board had Farming Village, Walled Village and Wandering Minstrel, would you buy Walled Village?

Sure, if I still need more splitters after the Wandering Minstrel pile runs out.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #130 on: January 17, 2016, 02:38:19 pm »
+1

It's more spammable and the initial action is huge on a board without villages.

My suggestion was initially that you get the -1 token in Winter instead of the bonuses. As I said, that would probably be too weak, so keeping the buy would be a good idea in that version.

@Asper I don't really like to compare Topdecking with staying in play since that has other implications

@Awaclus I know you don't like Farming Village, but you can't be serious when you take Walled Village over it AFTER another splitter has run out. Then it's literally a vanilla village.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #131 on: January 17, 2016, 02:40:52 pm »
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@Awaclus I know you don't like Farming Village, but you can't be serious when you take Walled Village over it AFTER another splitter has run out. Then it's literally a vanilla village.

Farming Village is always literally a vanilla Village, at least Walled Village can be good if you have a dud turn with it in your hand.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #132 on: January 17, 2016, 02:52:03 pm »
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If a board had Farming Village, Walled Village and Wandering Minstrel, would you buy Walled Village?

Sure, if I still need more splitters after the Wandering Minstrel pile runs out.

A wild Awaclus appears. Or is it sufficient to say "An Awaclus appears."? :P

All true. I am sorry I come across attacking. That's not my intention.

Here is, maybe, a broader point: I think it's fine that when there is a chapel, you wouldn't buy trade route. However, I'd refrain from making fan cards that are both *similar* and (in a lot of cases) almost (not universal) strictly better than existing cards. Your point is correct: there are situations where market/treasury is better than trade port, but they seem minor and those cards do similar and work similar. (Although trade port seems better in a lot of cases.)

This is not necessarily a problem. And, more importantly, I could very well be wrong in my estimate on the amount of situations where trade port is better than market/treasury. Maybe I am totally overestimaing it. I am, after all, just theorycrafting here.

But *if* I am right, then I'd consider that an argument to tweek it too make it less similar.

But I could be wrong.

I hope my priors on this, sort of the background theory where I am coming from, is not unreasonable to you. If you disagree, that's obviously fine. I have a low degree of certainty in my views on this anyway, but I'd thought I'd share them, to give an alternative view.

I am trying my own fan cards. They aren't as well thought out, beautifully designed or playtested as these. But one thing I try to do is try to think of similar cards and not make them almost universally stricly better. (Wether or not I am succeeding is a different matter...)

Nah, i think you made good points. In fact, the similarity to Treasury has been one of my main concerns with the card. I can promise i will talk with Co0kieL0rd about this, but for now, again, sorry, i am a bit busy.

I'm not sure whether i said this before, but the reason the set is partially not as flashed out is mostly because i feared i wouldn't have time to work on Seasons for a longer while. I asked CL whether we could post the set in its current state rather than waiting to make sure we post it at all. So that's why some cards are more shiny than others. Either way, the main idea of Trade Port is rather simple: Be good for the longest time, and then become bad.

@Asper I don't really like to compare Topdecking with staying in play since that has other implications

Well, sure. You may be forced to discard Treasury to a Militia or forget to topdeck it, or have yourhand Minion'd away, or activate Conspirator or decrease the price of Peddler, or get the 6th and 7th Treasury hit by a top-decking attack. But those are specific card interactions. Those aside, the outcome stays the same.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #133 on: January 17, 2016, 05:26:16 pm »
+2

I have noticed something about the comparison between Trade Port and Treasury - point that hasn't come up yet but I think is very significant. While a single Trade Port is almost strictly better than a single Treasury, the latter is easily spammable with little downside. However, each additional Trade Port you gain before Winter is worse than the one you gained before because it will be effectual for fewer turns overall.
As the most recent game Asper, LastFootnote and I played clearly showed, spamming Trade Ports is extremely slow and expensive and in Winter you lose a bunch of payload. So not only am I convinced now that Trade Port is balanced as-is, I'm also growing fond of the idea of giving you an incentive to buy them in multiples.

Each subsequent Trade Port is effectual for fewer turns... but that applies to every card you buy.  The closer you get to game end, the fewer chanecs you have to play the card, the fewer times it'll have to make a difference.  That's already a guiding principle for end game purchases.  If the game will end before you see your next buy, maybe you should buy a Duchy instead of another Treasury.

I don't think it's as big a deal as you are making it out to be though.  That is to say, I am not convinced that Treasury (or Market) are significantly more spammable than Trade Port.  Yes, each subsequent Trade Port is less effective than the previous one because there are fewer turns for it to be active until Winter... but that's not the comparison that matters here.  How many turns will it be effective compared to Market or Treasury?  Trade Port is gone for Winter, but Treasury is gone for a full shuffle after you buy a Victory card.  Market is gone for a full shuffle after each play.  So it will depend on how long your shuffles take.  And note, if the game ends before Winter, Market and Treasury will have been almost strictly inferior.

That's why I asked my earlier question about how much Winter affects the strategy.  Winter is turns 16-20, but I think the kind of board where Trade Port, Treasury and Market are best is also the kind of board that is likely to end early, where you get maybe one round of Winter and then it's over.  That's why I was suggesting having the card advance the seasons more quickly, or have a weaker/negative effect in Fall.

All that said, I do get that it still isn't as spammable in that there is some opportunity cost with that first play of each card.  It's more dangerous to buy a bunch before getting them into play because they don't do anything on the very first turn you play them, and if you're lacking +actions then it might end up being a dead card if multiples collide due to overzealous buying.  I'm just not sure that balances out all the positives.  The similarity to Treasury (and Market - also a good comparison) is a concern, especially since Trade Port is arguably so much better.  It's difficult to judge because its unique drawback is very different from the cards we are used to.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #134 on: January 17, 2016, 05:48:45 pm »
0

You make good points. Asper and I will be talking about Trade Port again but right now I'm not sufficiently sold on nerfing the card, yet.

I can think of an example where you might prefer to gain Markets over Trade Ports. Let's say it's Fall and you already have a deck-drawing engine (which is a reasonable assumption), you play all your action cards and can gain 4 cards this turn. If you gain 4 Markets you immediately increase your payload by $4 as well as your long-term reliability (compared to gaining 4 Silvers e.g.). In the same situation, if you gained 4 Trade Ports, you might not be able to play them all next turn and they won't help you in Winter. This scenario isn't that uncommon. It only applies to Kingdoms with both Market and Trade Port but only there the comparison makes sense.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #135 on: January 17, 2016, 06:08:51 pm »
+5

@Awaclus I know you don't like Farming Village, but you can't be serious when you take Walled Village over it AFTER another splitter has run out. Then it's literally a vanilla village.

Farming Village is always literally a vanilla Village, at least Walled Village can be good if you have a dud turn with it in your hand.

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

Edit: To not go off topic, I think your edited trade port (gets discarded at winter) is quite thematic and might make it weak and might be okay, but needs playtesting.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:12:41 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2016, 06:11:18 pm »
0

Any engine without a village will prefer markets over Trade Port. (i.e Highway/Market>>>Highway TP if there is any other terminal worth playing.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #137 on: January 17, 2016, 06:33:43 pm »
+1

Any engine without a village will prefer markets over Trade Port. (i.e Highway/Market>>>Highway TP if there is any other terminal worth playing.

How's that?  Trade Port is only going to be terminal on its first play.  I'd prioritize consistent +Buy for my Highways, and a combo like this is likely to end the game well before Winter arrives.

Depending on the rest of the board, I'd probably be going for 1-2 Trade Ports per shuffle, Highways otherwise.  Market would only be picked up if Highways are gone and I'm especially worried about already-purchasd Trade Ports colliding.  Or if I'm already consistently drawing my entire deck, in which case Market would provide an immediate boost next turn... but I'd expect even in that case to have a couple Trade Ports in play from earlier.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:38:22 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2016, 06:48:39 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #139 on: January 17, 2016, 07:07:27 pm »
+2

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #140 on: January 17, 2016, 07:15:21 pm »
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@Awaclus I know you don't like Farming Village, but you can't be serious when you take Walled Village over it AFTER another splitter has run out. Then it's literally a vanilla village.

Farming Village is always literally a vanilla Village, at least Walled Village can be good if you have a dud turn with it in your hand.

Here we go again.  ::)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #141 on: January 17, 2016, 07:17:21 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.

No, obviously not. We're discussing a scenario in which the top card is an Estate. Trivially, in that situation, the top card is not a copper or an action.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #142 on: January 17, 2016, 07:24:39 pm »
+3

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.

No, obviously not. We're discussing a scenario in which the top card is an Estate. Trivially, in that situation, the top card is not a copper or an action.
If the top card is an Estate, then perhaps you want this?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #143 on: January 17, 2016, 07:32:07 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.

No, obviously not. We're discussing a scenario in which the top card is an Estate. Trivially, in that situation, the top card is not a copper or an action.

Why not discuss the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn? In that situation, it's not a Copper or an Action, either, and the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn is just as realistic as the scenario in which the top card is an Estate.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #144 on: January 17, 2016, 07:39:53 pm »
+1

and the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn is just as realistic as the scenario in which the top card is an Estate.

Another trivially false statement. One of these things has never happened, and is impossible to happen. The other is not only possible but has happened.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #145 on: January 17, 2016, 07:42:13 pm »
0

and the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn is just as realistic as the scenario in which the top card is an Estate.

Another trivially false statement. One of these things has never happened, and is impossible to happen. The other is not only possible but has happened.

Out of the 6000+ games of Dominion I've played, I can't remember a single instance of that ever happening to me.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2016, 07:44:56 pm »
+7

Relevant:

So, you are verifying once and for all what an incredible waste of time it is for anyone to try to argue about this with you.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2016, 07:45:38 pm »
0

and the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn is just as realistic as the scenario in which the top card is an Estate.

Another trivially false statement. One of these things has never happened, and is impossible to happen. The other is not only possible but has happened.

Out of the 6000+ games of Dominion I've played, I can't remember a single instance of that ever happening to me.

Well obviously, you don buy Farming Village. But that's irrelevant. Are you denying that it has ever happened to anyone ever? Or are you admitting that your statements here are false?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2016, 07:47:30 pm »
0

Well obviously, you don buy Farming Village. But that's irrelevant. Are you denying that it has ever happened to anyone ever? Or are you admitting that your statements here are false?

I'm denying that even if it has happened to someone sometimes, it has any significant relevance on how good Farming Village is compared to Village.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2016, 07:49:28 pm »
+5

Well obviously, you don buy Farming Village. But that's irrelevant. Are you denying that it has ever happened to anyone ever? Or are you admitting that your statements here are false?

I'm denying that even if it has happened to someone sometimes, it has any significant relevance on how good Farming Village is compared to Village.
I don't care about how good or not good FV is compare to Village. I care that you post obviously false and stupid statements about it rather than truthful defenses of your position.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #150 on: January 17, 2016, 07:57:03 pm »
0

Well obviously, you don buy Farming Village. But that's irrelevant. Are you denying that it has ever happened to anyone ever? Or are you admitting that your statements here are false?

I'm denying that even if it has happened to someone sometimes, it has any significant relevance on how good Farming Village is compared to Village.
I don't care about how good or not good FV is compare to Village. I care that you post obviously false and stupid statements about it rather than truthful defenses of your position.

Well, stop caring.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2016, 07:57:48 pm »
+3

Geez, GendoIkari. Stop letting Awaclus troll you. You know he's never going to admit he's wrong.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2016, 08:11:13 pm »
+1

Guys, Farming Village is strictly worse than Village because you have to reveal the top card of your deck, so everybody knows what card you drew and can make choices accordingly.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2016, 09:19:59 pm »
+3

Please stop this.

Sorry about continuing this in your thread... back to the set! Show more cards!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2016, 09:22:11 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.

No, obviously not. We're discussing a scenario in which the top card is an Estate. Trivially, in that situation, the top card is not a copper or an action.
If the top card is an Estate, then perhaps you want this?
I'm a hit!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #156 on: January 17, 2016, 09:24:04 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.
What if it is an Estate that is in your deck because you started with it and you play Farming Village and it's the top card of your deck? Then what?

I'm feeding the troll!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2016, 09:39:21 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.
What if it is an Estate that is in your deck because you started with it and you play Farming Village and it's the top card of your deck? Then what?

I'm feeding the troll!
It sounds like you opened Farming Village.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #158 on: January 17, 2016, 10:00:30 pm »
0

You're using "literally" wrong again. If you play it and the top card of your deck is an estate, then you get to filter that estate.

But it's not an Estate. It's a Copper or an Action.
What if it is an Estate that is in your deck because you started with it and you play Farming Village and it's the top card of your deck? Then what?

I'm feeding the troll!
It sounds like you opened Farming Village.
Or there's no trashing or only treasure trashing.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #159 on: January 17, 2016, 10:33:39 pm »
+4

Man, I don't read the forums that often but this is the second time I've seen Awaculus post these ridiculous obviously false statements about farming village. It's bazaar!

Maybe my village pun can get the thread back on track to discussing these new cards that, I have to admit, are really cool ideas!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #160 on: January 17, 2016, 11:23:33 pm »
0

I hope that either me or Co0kieL0rd will be able to post the next card tomorrow. We still have to decide which it's going to be, though.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #161 on: January 17, 2016, 11:54:52 pm »
+26

and the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn is just as realistic as the scenario in which the top card is an Estate.

Another trivially false statement. One of these things has never happened, and is impossible to happen. The other is not only possible but has happened.

Out of the 6000+ games of Dominion I've played, I can't remember a single instance of that ever happening to me.


---------- awaclus: turn 13 ----------
awaclus - plays Farming Village
awaclus - reveals Estate, Duchy, Copper
awaclus - places Copper in hand
awaclus - discards: Estate, Duchy


http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160113/log.0.1452694543813.txt


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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2016, 01:37:23 am »
+1

and the scenario in which the top card is a flying unicorn is just as realistic as the scenario in which the top card is an Estate.

Another trivially false statement. One of these things has never happened, and is impossible to happen. The other is not only possible but has happened.

Out of the 6000+ games of Dominion I've played, I can't remember a single instance of that ever happening to me.


---------- awaclus: turn 13 ----------
awaclus - plays Farming Village
awaclus - reveals Estate, Duchy, Copper
awaclus - places Copper in hand
awaclus - discards: Estate, Duchy


http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160113/log.0.1452694543813.txt


I'll help you remember.
Wow. It hasn't even been a full week...
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2016, 04:27:12 am »
+1

Trade Port is to Market what Hireling is to Lab.

Personally I think that Hireling is overpowered but even if it were perfectly balanced at 6$ it is still more expensive than Lab.
Now you could argue that Lab is one of the strongest 5$ cards and Market a fairly weak one such that a perma-Market like Trade Port could cost 5$, but I am not convinced.

One way to nerf the card would be either +1 Buy or +1 Coin.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 04:29:16 am by tristan »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #164 on: January 18, 2016, 04:52:26 am »
+1

Having $1, +Buy for 10 - 13 turns seems pretty darn strong to me.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #165 on: January 18, 2016, 05:09:15 am »
+2

Wow, I saw 2 new pages in the thread and thought "yay! New seasons cards posted!"...  :-\

Trading post feels pretty near to strictly superior to a few cards, being terminal on play only marginally balancing the advantage it has over Treasury, in my opinion.
I think it needs another handicap that would make it more unique and give the other poor Peddler variants a chance to compare favorably.
As a random thought: "while this is in play, if you buy a treasure, trash this" (or discard, but I prefer trash as it's less Treasurish).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #166 on: January 18, 2016, 08:47:07 am »
+1

I think the point stands that Trade Port feels very strong, comparing too well to Treasury and Market at $5.

Even though Market and Treasury are fairly weak and middling $5 cards respectively, the comparison of Laboratory's strength and the permanence of Hireling seems to suggest that the simplest way to solve Trade Port's balance issues is to cost it at $6. It also solves the problem of how largely automatic it is as an opener.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #167 on: January 18, 2016, 10:03:07 am »
0

My family and I playtested Trade Port yesterday, and it's more balanced than you might think. I had 4 of them, but the whole useless-in-winter part of it cost me the game.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #168 on: January 18, 2016, 10:08:24 am »
+1

I think the point stands that Trade Port feels very strong, comparing too well to Treasury and Market at $5.

Even though Market and Treasury are fairly weak and middling $5 cards respectively, the comparison of Laboratory's strength and the permanence of Hireling seems to suggest that the simplest way to solve Trade Port's balance issues is to cost it at $6. It also solves the problem of how largely automatic it is as an opener.

There are other cards that are fairly weak and have a variant at the same cost that seems stronger in many ways but isn't strictly speaking (Thief and Noble Brigand; Laboratory and Hunting Party). At the cost of $6 on top of the harsh Winter restriction it would be quite worse than Hireling, I think. So if we raise its cost it probably needs a small buff to not suck. I also kinda like Accatitippi's suggestion. We'll think about it.

My family and I playtested Trade Port yesterday, and it's more balanced than you might think. I had 4 of them, but the whole useless-in-winter part of it cost me the game.

Thanks for testing :) I'm probably letting myself being persuaded too quickly by criticism about balance although we have much more playtest experience with the card. We tested Trade Port extra much and tried to verify the notion it's too strong as-is. But it never was. It has such a hight opportunity cost and will never win you games on its own. Of course the same applies for Market and Treasury but those have lower opportunity cost (non-terminal and do something this turn).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 10:17:58 am by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #169 on: January 18, 2016, 11:30:19 am »
+2

We are going to play a game later and i have the clear intention to abuse Trade Port as badly as i can. If i win, it'll tell us something. Probably that playing with me isn't fun.

Either way, my top priority would still be to make Trade Port a bit more different from Treasury, so i'm relatively open to tweaking it.

As the discussion regarding Trade Port is still rather active, is there interest that we post a new card soon? Or should we wait?

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #170 on: January 18, 2016, 12:26:20 pm »
+3

New card! New card! I think we can maintain discussion of two cards successfully.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #171 on: January 18, 2016, 12:53:41 pm »
+1

Wow, I saw 2 new pages in the thread and thought "yay! New seasons cards posted!"...  :-\

Trading post feels pretty near to strictly superior to a few cards, being terminal on play only marginally balancing the advantage it has over Treasury, in my opinion.
I think it needs another handicap that would make it more unique and give the other poor Peddler variants a chance to compare favorably.
As a random thought: "while this is in play, if you buy a treasure, trash this" (or discard, but I prefer trash as it's less Treasurish).
I just noticed that this wording doesn't really work since it doesn't stop the card from giving you the bonus. So if you are ever going to try something of the kind, you'll have to use something creative like:
"At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn for the rest of the game, if this is in play..."
Or: "At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn until you trash this, ..."
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:58:49 pm by Accatitippi »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #172 on: January 18, 2016, 12:58:20 pm »
+1

I still think some drawback in Winter would be quite fun, it would make it a lot more unique and it would also fit nicely to the other Season cards. Thematically, it's also great because an empty port costs money :)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #173 on: January 18, 2016, 01:20:17 pm »
0

Wow, I saw 2 new pages in the thread and thought "yay! New seasons cards posted!"...  :-\

Trading post feels pretty near to strictly superior to a few cards, being terminal on play only marginally balancing the advantage it has over Treasury, in my opinion.
I think it needs another handicap that would make it more unique and give the other poor Peddler variants a chance to compare favorably.
As a random thought: "while this is in play, if you buy a treasure, trash this" (or discard, but I prefer trash as it's less Treasurish).
I just noticed that this wording doesn't really work since it doesn't stop the card from giving you the bonus. So if you are ever going to try something of the kind, you'll have to use something creative like:
"At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn for the rest of the game, if this is in play..."
Or: "At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn until you trash this, ..."

At the start of each of your turns until Winter: +1Buy, +1$
At the start of Winter, trash this.
(This stays in play until trashed)

It would make a difference for games that go into a second Spring.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #174 on: January 18, 2016, 01:23:17 pm »
+2

I'm guessing Trade Port is fine as-is. It's very significant that it does nothing in Winter; if you had a Treasury, you may be drawing your deck by that point anyway, in which case Treasury is still a Peddler. And the fact that Trade Port does nothing on the turn you play it is also a big disadvantage.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 01:31:21 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #175 on: January 18, 2016, 01:29:12 pm »
+1

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.

I think the extra coin is a big thing, not a small thing. It's not at all like the difference between Goons and Workshop.  The concern is not only that it's too similar, but that the differences are big improvements with only small drawbacks.  And the comparison shouldn't be to Treasury alone, but Market as well. 

If it cost more than $5 or the drawbacks/differences were more pronounced, I don't think there would be nearly as much concern about this.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #176 on: January 18, 2016, 01:43:25 pm »
+2

Wow, I saw 2 new pages in the thread and thought "yay! New seasons cards posted!"...  :-\

Trading post feels pretty near to strictly superior to a few cards, being terminal on play only marginally balancing the advantage it has over Treasury, in my opinion.
I think it needs another handicap that would make it more unique and give the other poor Peddler variants a chance to compare favorably.
As a random thought: "while this is in play, if you buy a treasure, trash this" (or discard, but I prefer trash as it's less Treasurish).
I just noticed that this wording doesn't really work since it doesn't stop the card from giving you the bonus. So if you are ever going to try something of the kind, you'll have to use something creative like:
"At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn for the rest of the game, if this is in play..."
Or: "At the start of each of your turns in Spring, Summer and Autumn until you trash this, ..."

Hmm, so is the name too similar to Trading Post by any chance? Maybe it's no worse than Mint vs Mine or Hunting Party vs Hunting Grounds, but when I read this post, I didn't realize that he had made a mistake, and it took me a bit of re-reading to realize that the card being discussed here was called Trade Port, not Trading Post.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #177 on: January 18, 2016, 01:57:50 pm »
0

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.

I think the extra coin is a big thing, not a small thing. It's not at all like the difference between Goons and Workshop.  The concern is not only that it's too similar, but that the differences are big improvements with only small drawbacks.  And the comparison shouldn't be to Treasury alone, but Market as well. 

If it cost more than $5 or the drawbacks/differences were more pronounced, I don't think there would be nearly as much concern about this.

What about Noble Brigand vs Thief? I know a lot of us have complained about that, but Donald didn't think it was a problem. To me, the drawback that Noble Brigand has is way smaller than the drawback that Trade Port has. And the pluses that Noble Brigand adds to Thief are stronger than the pluses that Trade Port adds to Treasury.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #178 on: January 18, 2016, 02:15:41 pm »
+1

Fwiw, I don't think trade port is at all too similar to Treasury. Just because both have the ability to get an extra coin each turn unless certain things are met? So? That's one small thing that they have in common. That's like saying Goons is too similar to Woodcutter. This is different than Treasury in lots of ways. Doesn't work in winter. Does nothing the turn you play it. Gives a buy. Let's you buy green. Is terminal when played. Can't be hurt by discard attacks.

I think the extra coin is a big thing, not a small thing. It's not at all like the difference between Goons and Workshop.  The concern is not only that it's too similar, but that the differences are big improvements with only small drawbacks.  And the comparison shouldn't be to Treasury alone, but Market as well. 

If it cost more than $5 or the drawbacks/differences were more pronounced, I don't think there would be nearly as much concern about this.

What about Noble Brigand vs Thief? I know a lot of us have complained about that, but Donald didn't think it was a problem. To me, the drawback that Noble Brigand has is way smaller than the drawback that Trade Port has. And the pluses that Noble Brigand adds to Thief are stronger than the pluses that Trade Port adds to Treasury.

Thief is already super weak though, so it seems less a problem to me.  I would rarely get Thief over Noble Brigand, but I would rarely get Thief period so it's not a big change there.  Moreover, on the boards where I do want Thief, it's likely that I would prefer it over Noble Brigand, or at least wouldn't mind much either way.  Whereas I think I'd solidly prefer Trade Port over both Market and Treasury outside of very specific scenarios.

I also disagree that the drawback on Trade Port is bigger, or that the advantage is smaller, compared to Noble Brigand vs. Thief.  But that's just speculation.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #179 on: January 18, 2016, 03:42:18 pm »
+3

I'm guessing Trade Port is fine as-is. It's very significant that it does nothing in Winter; if you had a Treasury, you may be drawing your deck by that point anyway, in which case Treasury is still a Peddler. And the fact that Trade Port does nothing on the turn you play it is also a big disadvantage.

Asper and I both agree Trade Port is fine balance-wise but we are currently working on giving the card some more unique feature to set it apart more from Treasury. We are tending towards giving you another drawback in Winter while you get to keep either the +$1 or the +1 Buy. Since this will take some more testing, we will post the next card later this evening to make room for new discussion.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #180 on: January 18, 2016, 06:53:42 pm »
+10



Ballroom is a Season card that changes in the middle of the game. For the first half, it plays a cheaper action cards from the supply and adds it to your deck. In the second half, when the supply might or might not be going dry, it switches to playing action cards twice. The right thing at the right time.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #181 on: January 18, 2016, 06:54:57 pm »
+1

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #182 on: January 18, 2016, 07:03:46 pm »
0

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #183 on: January 18, 2016, 07:06:13 pm »
+1

I really like this one. My only concern would be the $5 cost, but it does serve a dual function.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #184 on: January 18, 2016, 07:08:53 pm »
+1

I literally opening this page just as the song I was listening to (Helpless from Hamilton) played the word Ballroom. :)

This is a really nice design, that uses the Season marker interestingly.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #185 on: January 18, 2016, 07:09:55 pm »
+1

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #186 on: January 18, 2016, 07:27:44 pm »
0

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?

No. It's better because it's a gainer as long as the supply is full of cards you want, and a Throne Room when your deck is full of cards you want. Theoretically, that is.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #187 on: January 18, 2016, 07:29:32 pm »
0

Interesting card. What are the current evaluations based on play testing you guys did?

Not sure how i should respond to this. It's a rather good card. The fact that you gain the card you play can be either good or bad, depending on the board, the card you want to play, and your engine-building skills. The card changing to Throne Room after a while is actually a buff, not a nerf.

Oh, you mean Trade Port. I'm not sure how i should respond to this, either. We have some ideas, but haven't decided what to do, yet.

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?

No. It's better because it's a gainer as long as the supply is full of cards you want, and a Throne Room when your deck is full of cards you want. Theoretically, that is.

Ah, yes, I see. Yeah: that makes sense.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2016, 07:38:57 pm »
+1

No, I meant your self-evaluation of Ballroom. :)

So in your experience: the card is *better* as throneroom than as the gainer?

I think Asper means that it's better as TR at that point in the game, whereas it's better as the gainer early on - thus the comment, "the right thing at the right time".  (PPE: beaten to the punch!)

That sounds about right to me.  Early on, TR is not great because you don't yet have the action density to support it.  Ballroom actually helps you achieve that action density though.  OTOH, the gaining effect is less valuable late game (when you might not see the card again before the end of the game, and when the card you most want might have piled out already) but playing a card twice may be just what you need.

My question is how it compares to Band of Misfits.  Gaining a card and immediately playing it is a lot like what BoM does except you also get the gain.  Unlike the comparison between Trade Port and Market/Treasury, I do think that there are significant differences here.  The functional change in Fall is a major shift, for one thing, and Fall is early enough that you can expect the change to matter a lot in most games.

Even so, I think that it's a good comparison to consider.  My guess is that Ballroom will be a better choice a lot of the time, but it may be very important that BoM continues to provide its flexibility in Fall and Winter.  Also, the gain from Ballroom may quickly go from blessing to curse if you use it on terminals too often.  Empyting piles may also lead to more games ending by 3-pile, which may be good or bad.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #189 on: January 18, 2016, 08:10:11 pm »
0

I'm not sure whether we played a game with both BR and BoM but we thought a lot about the similarities and differences. You already summed them up quite nicely. The most important difference are IMO pile control (Ball Room has it) and long-flexibility especially with a lot of terminals in the Kingdom you don't want a ton of in your deck (Band of Misfits provides more benefit here). We are convinced those two cards play out very differently due to the fact that BR gains while BoM doesn't and the mid-year shift which can make BR much stronger. Obviously, both cards are extremely board dependent.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #190 on: January 18, 2016, 08:29:52 pm »
+1

My personal focus was that gaining cards might sometimes not be what you want. If you need terminal draw now, that doesn't necessarily mean you need more cards that do it. Ballroom also empties the pile that BoM would leave untouched, which might work for or against it - you can have 15 "Villages" in your deck thanks to BoM, but the same does not apply to Ballroom. Of course, if both are in the same kingdom, Ballroom "steals" them away from BoM, so it's actually an interaction, too. I think BoM has an advantage if you only got to gain it a bit later (with "late" being much earlier here than with Trade Port), or if some cards in the kingdom are good only for a certain timespan or in certain situations. Moneylender, Baron or Coppersmith might be candidates, maybe even the (few) cheap junkers. I mean, sure, i want to play a lot of Sea Hags. But do i want to own a lot of Sea Hags?

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2016, 08:34:54 pm »
+1

Does Ballroom actually have pile-control? Assuming you end before turn 21, it has no gain ability for the latter half of the game.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2016, 08:41:32 pm »
0

Does Ballroom actually have pile-control? Assuming you end before turn 21, it has no gain ability for the latter half of the game.

Well, maybe I should have rather said "pile influence" in the beginning of the game - it has more of that than BoM, there you go  ::)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2016, 09:16:58 pm »
+2



Ballroom is a Season card that changes in the middle of the game. For the first half, it plays a cheaper action cards from the supply and adds it to your deck. In the second half, when the supply might or might not be going dry, it switches to playing action cards twice. The right thing at the right time.

I think this may be my new TR-variant (previous was Royal Carriage).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #194 on: January 18, 2016, 11:42:20 pm »
+5

Ballroom is awesome.  I was skeptical at first, but I am now officially a huge fan of this set.  I think this is the only mechanic we've seen besides Alchemy that provides enough space to create an entire set of cards using that mechanic, while still having the set function as a coherent and complete expansion (and also still giving you lots of new room for unique ideas).

Also, I think the name Ballroom is really clever.  In the first half of the game, the card is similar to the first half of its name, Ball.  During the second half of the game, the card is like Throne Room, represented by the second half of its name, room.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #195 on: January 19, 2016, 08:36:48 am »
+1

I like Ballroom a lot.  I'm pretty strongly in the "Ballroom > B.O.M." camp, mostly due to this reason:

There are boards where B.O.M. might be better than Ballroom, but most of those boards you don't really want B.O.M. anyway.  When you DO want B.O.M., I think you would almost always just prefer Ballroom. 

But I don't think it's stronger enough to be broken.  I'd probably put this at #15 or so on my list of $5 cards (so, very high). 

I actually think the better comparison in terms of function than to BOM is to Workshop.  It fills the same role as workshop, but is MUCH stronger in the early game, and morphs into a throne room right around the time you want it to.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #196 on: January 19, 2016, 01:59:15 pm »
+1

Also, I think the name Ballroom is really clever.  In the first half of the game, the card is similar to the first half of its name, Ball.  During the second half of the game, the card is like Throne Room, represented by the second half of its name, room.

Thanks. It wasn't always named Ballroom. The name was changed mostly because we didn't like the old picture, and we didn't find any that were better and went with that name. I stumbled over a Ballroom picture when actually looking for another name i thought about, and liked Ballroom better. Now that i think about it, it's more like Summon than like Ball... Just, Summon Room isn't a good name. Either way, the mechanic came first..

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #197 on: January 20, 2016, 12:50:04 pm »
+1

I like this card very much too. The first phase seems super strong, most likely the strongest gainer in the game. However, I think this card is still nicely balanced by reducing the effect for the first 10 turns. It might still get crazy in chapel decks, but usually it should not break the game.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2016, 12:57:36 pm »
+1

I just realized the similarity between Ballroom and India (the community-created card), as they are both gainers that can play a gained action. India can gain cards costing more than , and it can gain non-Action cards as well. On the other hand, it requires remodeling, which is both a plus and a minus.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #199 on: January 20, 2016, 02:40:54 pm »
+2

Wow, this looks really awesome! I worked on a similar concept before (with a "Day and Night"-system in a Horror setting), but never got around to finishing it. This looks perfect, though. Well done!
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #200 on: January 21, 2016, 05:57:48 am »
+3

Ballroom seems really strong, but is of course hindered by the fact that most $4- cards are weakish terminals.
It's also hindered by the fact that sometimes you don't want many copies of $4 cards. You might want to play that Baron now with an Estate in your hand, but have little use for it later.
Also, the gaining is forced, so ideally you want some cheap cantrips (Pearl Diver, Great Hall, Spy) to get when other interesting cards are gone to keep playing it.

I can see some use for using Ballroom to gain and play Villages (Farming, Mining, Worker's).

The later TR effect balances it well, I think.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #201 on: January 21, 2016, 07:25:12 am »
+1

Sojourner is too cheap. It cost $2 but is strictly better than estate since it gives the same 1 vp but also removes itself from the hand as well as offers a bonus benefit depending on the season. Should cost $3?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #202 on: January 21, 2016, 08:36:52 am »
+2

Sojourner is too cheap. It cost $2 but is strictly better than estate since it gives the same 1 vp but also removes itself from the hand as well as offers a bonus benefit depending on the season. Should cost $3?

It is not strictly better, as if you are not able to play Sojourner before the game ends, it is worth nothing. You often buy Estates as tiebreakers in the final turns of the game, which you can't do with Sojourner.

Also Compare Distand Lands, which is a Victory card costing that is worth 4 if you managed to play it, and worth 0 otherwise. According to your reasoning it's strictly better than Duchy.

Edit: Of course, the fact that it's not strictly better than Estate doesn't mean it can't be too strong.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #203 on: January 21, 2016, 08:53:39 am »
+1

Also, the gaining is forced, so ideally you want some cheap cantrips (Pearl Diver, Great Hall, Spy) to get when other interesting cards are gone to keep playing it.

Eh, well, the gaining is forced, but playing Ballroom isn't... and since the only use of playing Ballroom is to get those cheap Actions (in Spring/Summer), I don't see how the situation would be any better if the gaining was optional, barring Golem/Herald/TR edge cases. (and with TR and Herald around I guess there are good gaining targets)
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #204 on: January 21, 2016, 09:31:14 am »
+1

Hmm, I think what I meant was you are forced to gain the card you want to play right now. :)

So you can't BoM it to play a Baron without gaining it.

And I also meant that it's helpful to keep gaining cheap cantrips as they rarely hurt (barring discard attacks and such).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 09:32:17 am by Davio »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #205 on: January 22, 2016, 08:07:07 pm »
+10

Now we kept you waiting for god-knows-how-many days before releasing the next card. We hope with this we can RESTORE your faith in our update schedule  ;D



The Remodel family got offspring! Again. Where are all those coming from? Restore wants to be like Expand but also non-terminal. You can do that in Spring but it gets worse. Although Winter is the only Season where it's actually bad for its cost. Restore benefits the most from action-rich decks and long games that last until second Spring. In that case it can make for an explosive ending. Otherwise its power level is about average for a $5-cost card.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #206 on: January 22, 2016, 08:11:03 pm »
0

This looks very good. Like, unskippable. I usually feel that way about non-terminal trashers (show of hands for who ignores Upgrade/Junk Dealer 90-93% of the time?) but I still like them. It's interesting, for sure, but it is usually better than Remodel or almost any remodel-type cards (not including expand). I'm almost positive you've playtested it, so if it's good, then great, I can be wrong. But man, this card is the one that I've been least sure of throughout the entire expansion.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #207 on: January 22, 2016, 08:16:51 pm »
+1

This looks very good. Like, unskippable. I usually feel that way about non-terminal trashers (show of hands for who ignores Upgrade/Junk Dealer 90-93% of the time?) but I still like them. It's interesting, for sure, but it is usually better than Remodel or almost any remodel-type cards (not including expand). I'm almost positive you've playtested it, so if it's good, then great, I can be wrong. But man, this card is the one that I've been least sure of throughout the entire expansion.

It has been tested in 8-10 games, I reckon, and never has been changed since we came up with it. It works fine but it's still slow. It's certainly worse than Junk Dealer and Upgrade. Drawing a card makes those card significantly better. Restore hates trashing Coppers (unless in Spring). It wants Silvers or Action cards.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #208 on: January 22, 2016, 08:53:13 pm »
0

What's wrong with trshing coppers to get silvers? Not fast enough?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #209 on: January 22, 2016, 09:15:15 pm »
0

What's wrong with trshing coppers to get silvers? Not fast enough?

Assuming you actually open with Restore, you can only use the $3 option once. I usually like my Season cards that do something special in Spring to cost $4 or less, so you can always open with them, but in Restore's case, it's both a consolation price for the +Action being useless, and of course a gigantic boost if (and that's a big if) the game takes until Spring II.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #210 on: January 22, 2016, 11:50:27 pm »
+4

What's wrong with trshing coppers to get silvers? Not fast enough?

It's worse than Mine, which isn't very strong... I mean it's non-terminal of course, but that only matters if you have other terminal actions to play in the same hand.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #211 on: January 23, 2016, 02:11:38 am »
+2

The Remodel family got offspring!

I'm guessing this was punintentional?
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #212 on: January 23, 2016, 07:42:02 am »
+1

I like that it is nonterminal... but there might be issues with that. The other nonterminal Remodel-family card is Upgrade, and that has "exactly". This one does not, so I'm afraid it enables milling piles. You can really speed up the game by multiple Province -> Province plays. Not sure how big of a problem that is. It might not be a problem,but it would defnitely be a thing to look out for in playtest rounds (if you didn't already).
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #213 on: January 23, 2016, 07:50:55 am »
0

I like that it is nonterminal... but there might be issues with that. The other nonterminal Remodel-family card is Upgrade, and that has "exactly". This one does not, so I'm afraid it enables milling piles. You can really speed up the game by multiple Province -> Province plays. Not sure how big of a problem that is. It might not be a problem,but it would defnitely be a thing to look out for in playtest rounds (if you didn't already).

That is a good point. I think we never looked out for that. The situation never came up because Restore was never part of any dominant strategy so far. But since we are going to go over the card again, possibly buffing it, we will consider adding "exactly" to it.

The Remodel family got offspring!

I'm guessing this was punintentional?

Wow, no it wasn't. Haha, totally missed that  :D
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #214 on: January 23, 2016, 08:38:32 am »
+2

I like that it is nonterminal... but there might be issues with that. The other nonterminal Remodel-family card is Upgrade, and that has "exactly". This one does not, so I'm afraid it enables milling piles. You can really speed up the game by multiple Province -> Province plays. Not sure how big of a problem that is. It might not be a problem,but it would defnitely be a thing to look out for in playtest rounds (if you didn't already).

That is a good point. I think we never looked out for that. The situation never came up because Restore was never part of any dominant strategy so far. But since we are going to go over the card again, possibly buffing it, we will consider adding "exactly" to it.

In case the card should turn out to be too unwieldy with "exactly", you can also try "gain a different card costing up to..." to avoid milling. It's unique in Dominion, but I don't think it would be confusing or overcomplex.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #215 on: January 23, 2016, 09:42:19 am »
0

I like that it is nonterminal... but there might be issues with that. The other nonterminal Remodel-family card is Upgrade, and that has "exactly". This one does not, so I'm afraid it enables milling piles. You can really speed up the game by multiple Province -> Province plays. Not sure how big of a problem that is. It might not be a problem,but it would defnitely be a thing to look out for in playtest rounds (if you didn't already).

Well, the card gets worse the longer a game takes, so cutting it short might well be in a Restore player's interest. I admit we never actually tried a game in which one of us went to max this interaction out, but as Restore isn't particularly helpful to get a Province, i felt it should be okay.

Remodel does a similar thing, and will be able to do Gold->Province, too, regardless of Season. Of course it's terminal, but if you only mill one Province a turn, they are about equal. If you mill 2, for example from a starting hand of 2 Restores and 2 Provinces, Restore is stronger. But for more, you already need an engine for either card. It's true Remodel's Province-milling-engine needs additional +Actions as well, but Remodel costs $4 and Restore $5. There's got to be a few things where Restore is better, and if milling is what you care for, think of the other $5s you could have included in your mill instead.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #216 on: January 23, 2016, 09:50:24 am »
+1

Is it necessary that this card is so much stronger in Spring (Estates->$5 cost) compared to Summer? I feel like this is just giving the 5/2 a huge advantage which doesn't seem needed thematically.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #217 on: January 23, 2016, 09:58:24 am »
+1

Is it necessary that this card is so much stronger in Spring (Estates->$5 cost) compared to Summer? I feel like this is just giving the 5/2 a huge advantage which doesn't seem needed thematically.

We are going to test a version that is strongest in Summer but no promises, yet. Anyway think of a 5/2 versus 4/3 opening on a board with Witch, Mountebank, Count, Wharf, IGG etc.. I don't think Restore gets any worse than that. You'd still have to align Restore with an Estate and then you can still only expand it for $3 once.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #218 on: January 23, 2016, 10:11:56 am »
+1

Is it necessary that this card is so much stronger in Spring (Estates->$5 cost) compared to Summer? I feel like this is just giving the 5/2 a huge advantage which doesn't seem needed thematically.

We are going to test a version that is strongest in Summer but no promises, yet. Anyway think of a 5/2 versus 4/3 opening on a board with Witch, Mountebank, Count, Wharf, IGG etc.. I don't think Restore gets any worse than that. You'd still have to align Restore with an Estate and then you can still only expand it for $3 once.

Yes, my point was that Dominion does not need another card that makes 5/2 so strong ;)  I feel that you can easily avoid such a thing with this card.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #219 on: January 23, 2016, 10:27:00 am »
+1

Is it necessary that this card is so much stronger in Spring (Estates->$5 cost) compared to Summer? I feel like this is just giving the 5/2 a huge advantage which doesn't seem needed thematically.

We are going to test a version that is strongest in Summer but no promises, yet. Anyway think of a 5/2 versus 4/3 opening on a board with Witch, Mountebank, Count, Wharf, IGG etc.. I don't think Restore gets any worse than that. You'd still have to align Restore with an Estate and then you can still only expand it for $3 once.

Yes, my point was that Dominion does not need another card that makes 5/2 so strong ;)  I feel that you can easily avoid such a thing with this card.

Well, let's assume a board with both Restore and Witch:
If i open Witch, i play Witch during Spring, draw two cards, probably buy somethign decent, and Summer starts with me having Witch and something decent, and you having a Curse.
If i open Restore, i can trash an Estate for a Witch. Summer starts with me having Witch and something decent (because that's what nonterminal Remodel is), and me having an Estate less.

Depending on how lucky or unlucky my Witch draw is, i'd say the Witch opening is at least as good.

I agree with you that increasing the gap between the different openings isn't something we should look for, and that's why we are considering the Summer option right now.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #220 on: January 23, 2016, 10:56:37 am »
+1

Well, I think it is in the nature of junkers that they are better the earlier you can play them (besides Snow Witch :) ) whereas a trash for benefit doesn't have that problem necessarily. It's already better when you get it on 5/2, I just don't see why it would need the bonus of a non-terminal Expand play on top of that.

That said, I like the summer buff, it fits thematically aswell.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #221 on: January 23, 2016, 01:55:55 pm »
+3

I like that it is nonterminal... but there might be issues with that. The other nonterminal Remodel-family card is Upgrade, and that has "exactly". This one does not, so I'm afraid it enables milling piles. You can really speed up the game by multiple Province -> Province plays. Not sure how big of a problem that is. It might not be a problem,but it would defnitely be a thing to look out for in playtest rounds (if you didn't already).
Don't forget Transmogrify!  Transmogrify is more closely comparable, since it is also +1 action, and it also only remodels up to $1 more.  Transmogrify is also much better at milling Provinces than Restore.  In my experience, milling Provinces with Transmogrify is definitely a thing, but it's a good thing.  It doesn't ruin games, it adds that extra dimension of strategy.

My first impression of Restore is that it looks weak.  Remodel doesn't especially benefit from being non-terminal, since you can use it to remodel terminal actions that it collides with.  The winter effect is bad at gaining Provinces, which is what you'd want to do at that point, so I'd think that milling Provinces is the only useful winter ability.  But I could be wrong, I didn't playtest it.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #222 on: January 25, 2016, 03:22:38 pm »
+5



Being a student in this Dominion is tough. Economy lessons start much too early. Ugh, why can a person never sleep in without having to fear they won't be able to produce money later? Maybe someone else has taken notes and can share them? I mean, there's really no need for ALL of us to visit that +Buy class. At least those +Action lessons were nice... I heard everything gets better in Winter semester, when you finally graduate and learn how to draw cards. When everybody looks at the things you can do now, and every kingdom wants your skills if you were there from the beginning. Hm... Maybe being a Student isn't that bad, after all.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #223 on: January 25, 2016, 03:54:02 pm »
+1

To clarify I understand this right, provided there are not other cards moving your tokens around, the possibility is...
In Spring, +1 Action +$1
In Summer, +2 Actions, +$1
In Fall, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
In Winter, +1 Card, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
And I presume the first time you play it in a given season, you don't get the token bonus because it was not on the student pile when you played it?
If I did read that correctly, then this sounds like the pile will be a mess covered in all those tokens. It might be advisable that they go onto a mat or something.
It seems like a bit of a late bloomer. The effects of the card are not really "worth $3" or more until Winter. And to get it that good you really need to have stuck with it from the start. I like it conceptually, but it feels like it needs a buff.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:58:26 pm by GeneralRamos »
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #224 on: January 25, 2016, 04:12:49 pm »
+1

To clarify I understand this right, provided there are not other cards moving your tokens around, the possibility is...
In Spring, +1 Action +$1
In Summer, +2 Actions, +$1
In Fall, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
In Winter, +1 Card, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
And I presume the first time you play it in a given season, you don't get the token bonus because it was not on the student pile when you played it?
If I did read that correctly, then this sounds like the pile will be a mess covered in all those tokens. It might be advisable that they go onto a mat or something.
It seems like a bit of a late bloomer. The effects of the card are not really "worth $3" or more until Winter. And to get it that good you really need to have stuck with it from the start. I like it conceptually, but it feels like it needs a buff.

Yes, you got all that correct.

Power-wise, we tried a few versions of Student and its power changes a lot depending on which is the basic bonus and what you get in which order. Originally, the basic bonus was +$1, and it was otherwise the same, making it a terminal Silver, a Silver, a +Buy Silver, and a Grand Market in the end. Another option i thought about recently would be to swap the Spring and Winter bonuses - it starts as a cantrip, becomes a Village, becomes a Worker's Village, becomes a Village-Market. Maybe that would be better.

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #225 on: January 25, 2016, 04:38:48 pm »
+2

I think starting with the +Card and ending with the +$1 makes more sense. I don't mind picking one up early if it's a cantrip and won't get in the way much, probably moreso than a non-terminal copper. It also makes it more valuable in its village stages, because it's more like a true village at comparable cost.
Even so, it might still feel a tad weak, though I haven't played with it to know if this bears out: its end strength depends on your jumping onto it at the beginning of the game. If you miss spring with it, is it still going to be worth buying for the Winter when you only have Summer+Fall+Winter effects? I almost feel like it should have a bigger payoff to encourage early adoption.
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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #226 on: January 25, 2016, 04:47:35 pm »
+1

To clarify I understand this right, provided there are not other cards moving your tokens around, the possibility is...
In Spring, +1 Action +$1
In Summer, +2 Actions, +$1
In Fall, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
In Winter, +1 Card, +2 Actions, +1 Buy, +$1
And I presume the first time you play it in a given season, you don't get the token bonus because it was not on the student pile when you played it?
If I did read that correctly, then this sounds like the pile will be a mess covered in all those tokens. It might be advisable that they go onto a mat or something.
It seems like a bit of a late bloomer. The effects of the card are not really "worth $3" or more until Winter. And to get it that good you really need to have stuck with it from the start. I like it conceptually, but it feels like it needs a buff.

Yes, you got all that correct.

Power-wise, we tried a few versions of Student and its power changes a lot depending on which is the basic bonus and what you get in which order. Originally, the basic bonus was +$1, and it was otherwise the same, making it a terminal Silver, a Silver, a +Buy Silver, and a Grand Market in the end. Another option i thought about recently would be to swap the Spring and Winter bonuses - it starts as a cantrip, becomes a Village, becomes a Worker's Village, becomes a Village-Market. Maybe that would be better.

I don't know, with the swap it feels you'd have little reason to ever buy a Student if you didn't play one in Spring: Necropolis -> Necropolis+Buy -> One-turn-Fishing-Village+Buy doesn't sound nearly as attractive as Necropolis -> Necropolis+Buy -> Worker's Village (which is pretty yucky on its own). That is, it increases the difference between the early Student and the later Student, at the expense of the latter.

I like it, but my gut tells me it's very weak, comparing unfavourably to all other villages, including Hamlet and CotR which are cheaper.
The fact is, if there are better openers (and I'm afraid there will often be), I'll get those, and then ignore Students for the rest of the game, unless I'm really desperate for actions.

My suggestion is swapping Fall with Winter, making it:
Spring +coin
Summer +Action
Fall +Card
Winter +Buy

This way your Student Engine will start working significantly earlier, and I might still buy a late first Student for the cantrip +Buy. -And the Engine player will get the +Buy just after they wanted to start double-Provincing.
The fact that you have to "activate" each bonus and that you have to junk your opening to get the +coin would still make it comparable to Village at 3, I think.
Of course I might be terribly wrong and suddently getting a deckful of Marketing Bazaars on turn 15 is more powerful than I thought. Even more so since early Students won't really junk you if all you want from life is cheap cards, like uh, Students.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:55:56 pm by Accatitippi »
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #227 on: January 25, 2016, 04:56:25 pm »
+2

Would it get too absurd if it were an a cantrip at base?
Cantrip copper -> village + copper -> village market -> village lab market.
Probably.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:58:33 pm by GeneralRamos »
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #228 on: January 25, 2016, 05:43:53 pm »
+1

Would it get too absurd if it were an a cantrip at base?
Cantrip copper -> village + copper -> village market -> village lab market.
Probably.

Then it would have to cost at least $5, because Cantrip copper has been determined before to be worth $4, and this would be strictly better than that, better enough to cost $5. So yes, it is too crazy, at least if they want to keep it at $3.

Another option i thought about recently would be to swap the Spring and Winter bonuses - it starts as a cantrip, becomes a Village, becomes a Worker's Village, becomes a Village-Market. Maybe that would be better.

I think that would be much better, since it takes until Fall to stop being strictly worse than a Squire, which is pretty bad. Every official card that has a variable effect like this has a cost equal to the average value if the card's multiple effects were split into separate cards (for example, Ironmonger's effects are Village ($3 cost), Peddler ($4 cost), and Lab ($5 cost). It's actual cost is ($3+$4+$5)/3 = $4).

As it is currently, its effects are: Copper ($0 cost), Squire w/ fixed choice ($1 cost), Co0kieL0rd's Suburbia (Reactionless version, $2 or $3, probably $3 cost), and Bazaar + buy ($6 cost). Thus, it's average value is: ($0+$1+$3+$6)/4 = $2.5.

Spring/Winter switched version's effects are: Cantrip ($0 cost), Village ($3 cost), Worker's Village ($4 cost), and Bazaar + buy ($6 cost). It's average value is: ($0+$3+$4+$6)/4 = $3.25.

Mathematically, if the Spring/Winter bonuses are switched like you suggest, the percent error for costing it at $3 would be +8.33% instead of -16.67%; in other words, it would be twice as good an estimate for how much it should cost!
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #229 on: January 25, 2016, 06:03:47 pm »
+3

I think that would be much better, since it takes until Fall to stop being strictly worse than a Squire, which is pretty bad. Every official card that has a variable effect like this has a cost equal to the average value if the card's multiple effects were split into separate cards (for example, Ironmonger's effects are Village ($3 cost), Peddler ($4 cost), and Lab ($5 cost). It's actual cost is ($3+$4+$5)/3 = $4).

Are there any other cards like this besides Ironmonger?  It's definitely just coincidence, and not a good design principle that should be followed in general.  Ironmonger is intended to hit different kinds of cards with different probabilities, so just averaging the costs obviously doesn't mean it should cost $4.  Plus, costs don't scale linearly with utility in general with Dominion; the difference between $4 and $5 is much larger than the difference between $3 and $4.  Also, Ironmonger is actually better than Village when it hits an action, Peddler when it hits a treasure, and Lab when it hits a victory card, because you also get to spy that card; so if your reasoning was correct, Ironmonger should cost more than $4 (though it'd probably still be a lot closer to $4 than $5).  But most importantly, it's much better to think about how the effects work in combination with each other, rather than just evaluating each effect in a vacuum and averaging them.  A card that is a solid village sometimes and a solid terminal other times (like Tribute) is significantly worse than a card which is always a solid village, or a card which is always a solid terminal.

That being said, I think I agree that the card is too weak as it is, but switching the +1 card and +$1 would probably help out a lot.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #230 on: January 25, 2016, 06:18:25 pm »
+1

I too am dubious of the math's value and averaging as a pricing solution. But even following the math, we need to factor in the fact that that is an optimal scenario, if one buys and plays it starting in Spring and then again in each successive season. I guess that's my roundabout way of suggesting maybe trying it out at $2 instead of $3.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #231 on: January 25, 2016, 06:23:39 pm »
+1

Technically a cantrip base isn't strictly better than "Peddler" because it is just a cantrip with no benefit the very first time it is played, but that isn't much of a drawback.

I almost posted the idea of making the base a cantrip, but it ends up pretty different from the original concept.  I think if you did that, it would be worth considering removing the +card token bonus from it somehow. If it is a cantrip with all 4 tokens when fully powered up, I would agree the cost would need to be higher than $3. 

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2016, 01:14:31 pm »
+3

After a few tries, this is the wording I suggest in order to have a reasonable font size on Student. (Obviously I don't have the Season background template, so I couldn't duplicate the card exactly.)



I've played one game with Student, in which Co0kieL0rd bought Students and I didn't. I don't remember who won, but I think it was a pretty close game. Student seems reasonable, power-wise. It's a cool card, although I agree with GeneralRamos that—in an IRL game—the pile will often be a mess of tokens.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with eHalcyon's early post that "Autumn" is way classier than "Fall".
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 01:15:59 pm by LastFootnote »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2016, 01:21:08 pm »
+1

I thought a bit more about this. For Student to be skippable on some boards until Summer, the bonus in Spring has to be either +Action or +Buy. If it is +Card or +$, and you skipped Student in Spring, getting one in Summer is a complete waste of money. If the Spring bonus is +Action or +Buy, though, you may be able to skip it some times.

I do think +Buy belongs in the later half of the game, and even though +Action is very nice, there might be boards where (for a lack of cantrips or better available +Action cards), you will still want Students without it. So, another idea:
Basic bonus: +1 Action
Spring: +1 Action
Summer:+$1
Fall: +1 Card
Winter:+1 Buy

This way, It goes either
Necropolis->Coin-Necropolis->Village-Peddler->Village-Market
or Copper->Peddler->Market
or Cantrip->Market Square

The option to swap +$ and +Card still stands with this scenario, although it seems to me that adding the draw in Fall is still early enough and avoids a "better than Village in Summer already"-scenario.

After a few tries, this is the wording I suggest in order to have a reasonable font size on Student. (Obviously I don't have the Season background template, so I couldn't duplicate the card exactly.)

I've played one game with Student, in which Co0kieL0rd bought Students and I didn't. I don't remember who won, but I think it was a pretty close game. Student seems reasonable, power-wise. It's a cool card, although I agree with GeneralRamos that—in an IRL game—the pile will often be a mess of tokens.

EDIT: Oh, and I agree with eHalcyon's early post that "Autumn" is way classier than "Fall".

Thanks for the wording suggestion, LastFootnote. I think we can go with that one. Also, yes, the pile is a mess of tokens, but it's usually a matter of counting tokens in your color, anyway. Not that this means it's not an issue, but at least it's not a mechanical one.

eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2016, 01:37:20 pm »
+2

I think putting +$1 in Spring will actually create more scenarios where you skip the Spring bonus.  Every board has a source of coins (basic Treasures) but not every board has splitters.  I thought that this was the reasoning behind your first posted version having +$1 in Spring.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2016, 02:46:33 pm »
0

@ eHalcyon: Good point.

Sorry, i feel i'm not very focused right now, i'll be back somewhere these days.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Seasons - the set the community has been waiting for!
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2016, 04:45:29 pm »
+2

Thanks for all the feedback. It's good to see so many people care and put thought into the card. In most games we had, Student wasn't too weak because usually, when you want it, you get only one in Spring and don't start gaining mo