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[Accatitippi]

Maybe this forum really is going downhill... all those unfavorable comparisons to Silver

Would you say that it's unjustifiable to compare Oasis to Silver?

If so, why?

If not, why can't Caravan Guard be compared to Silver?

Well, you can compare anything to anything, e.g. both apples and oranges are approximately spherical in shape, but the comparison between Caravan Guard and Silver is about as relevant to actual Dominion play as the one between these two tasty fruits.

Generally you want one or two Silvers if it's important to hit 5 early, or as many Silvers as possible if you're playing some sort of Big Borefest (money, slogs, Feodum games). In these situations Silver is clearly superior and the thought of getting a Caravan Guard shouldn't even enter your mind. In most other spots, however, Silver is terrible and Caravan Guard is a pretty decent choice. Since usually one of them is clearly better, they never really compete; additionally, they fulfill quite different functions, hence I don't see these comparisons as making any sense at all.

Well, they are both payload cards, and if you'll generally consider buying them in the same situations. Village and Silver fit your simile much better.
Even in an engine, you might prefer Silver (if you can draw it consistently) since it increases your deck buying power by two coins, which is almost 4 times better than Guard's 1 coin every second turn.

[eHalcyon]

Maybe this forum really is going downhill... all those unfavorable comparisons to Silver

Would you say that it's unjustifiable to compare Oasis to Silver?

If so, why?

If not, why can't Caravan Guard be compared to Silver?

Well, you can compare anything to anything, e.g. both apples and oranges are approximately spherical in shape, but the comparison between Caravan Guard and Silver is about as relevant to actual Dominion play as the one between these two tasty fruits.

Generally you want one or two Silvers if it's important to hit 5 early, or as many Silvers as possible if you're playing some sort of Big Borefest (money, slogs, Feodum games). In these situations Silver is clearly superior and the thought of getting a Caravan Guard shouldn't even enter your mind. In most other spots, however, Silver is terrible and Caravan Guard is a pretty decent choice. Since usually one of them is clearly better, they never really compete; additionally, they fulfill quite different functions, hence I don't see these comparisons as making any sense at all.

Well, they are both payload cards, and if you'll generally consider buying them in the same situations. Village and Silver fit your simile much better.
Even in an engine, you might prefer Silver (if you can draw it consistently) since it increases your deck buying power by two coins, which is almost 4 times better than Guard's 1 coin every second turn.

I would not consider Caravan Guard a payload card.  To me, payloads are big effects that you want to get out often.  Caravan Guard is just a small, inoffensive bonus.

IMO, the major difference between it and Silver that may hurt the comparison is that Caravan Guard is a cantrip while Silver is a stop card.  There are many situations where I really, really don't want to buy Silver anymore (typically after the early game), but Caravan Guard is a pretty safe pick up when there's nothing better.  Silver can hurt, Caravan Guard rarely does.

[trivialknot]

Here are some money density calculations with peddler vs caravan guard.

Suppose you shuffle every N turns.  N doesn't have to be an integer because we're averaging.  Each peddler adds a value of 1/N coins per turn.  Assuming you're not using the reaction, each caravan guard adds a value of 1/(N+1) coins per turn, because cards played on the last turn skip a shuffle.

Peddler is at its best when N is small.  Caravan Guard is also at its best when N is small.  But the difference between peddler and caravan guard is greatest in precisely that situation.  That's what makes caravan guard so weak.

Here's a hypothetical.  Say that we have three players.  Player A buys a silver each turn.  Player B buys a peddler each turn (assume they can).  Player C buys a caravan guard each turn.  In terms of money density, Player B beats Player A after turn 3.  Player C only beats Player A after turn 10!  So maybe you are better off buying those silver.

[eHalcyon]

Here are some money density calculations with peddler vs caravan guard.

Suppose you shuffle every N turns.  N doesn't have to be an integer because we're averaging.  Each peddler adds a value of 1/N coins per turn.  Assuming you're not using the reaction, each caravan guard adds a value of 1/(N+1) coins per turn, because cards played on the last turn skip a shuffle.

Peddler is at its best when N is small.  Caravan Guard is also at its best when N is small.  But the difference between peddler and caravan guard is greatest in precisely that situation.  That's what makes caravan guard so weak.

Here's a hypothetical.  Say that we have three players.  Player A buys a silver each turn.  Player B buys a peddler each turn (assume they can).  Player C buys a caravan guard each turn.  In terms of money density, Player B beats Player A after turn 3.  Player C only beats Player A after turn 10!  So maybe you are better off buying those silver.

I absolutely agree that Peddler is usually better than Caravan Guard, and I also think that Caravan Guard seems pretty weak.  The hypothetical is a huge oversimplification of practical strategy though, and I don't think the data is useful.  When are you ever going to buy only Silver or Caravan Guard for 10 turns? 

Moreover, money density doesn't matter in the kinds of decks where Caravan Guard would be preferable to Silver - that is, decks that want to play a lot of actions, where Silver being a stop card is really bad.  I think that's what SCSN is getting at when he says that Silver and Caravan Guard fulfill different functions and don't really compete with each other.

[faust]

I would describe it as a card that is never bad to have

You must be new here. It's time to gather the armies for another edge case war!

EDIT: Oh snap, you're actually new here! You should go post on the 'Introductions' board!

Okay, will do that.

Did not get the part with the edge case war. Sorry, if I posted something stupid.

No, you don't post anything stupid.

Glad to hear that.

Are you letting me in on the insight joke? ;-)

Roadrunner's post was funny because on this forum, people are very pedantic, and the fact that they are is often cause for jokes and witty comments. You said "Caravan Guard is never bad to have", which in general is a good observation, but say you play a Smithy from your hand and draw a Caravan Guard. The card is dead, you can't play it. So in this case, Caravan Guard would have been bad to have, because if you didn't have it, you could have drawn some other card with it, maybe a Treasure that would have allowed you to buy a Province. Whenever someone makes a Dominion statement using "never" and/or "always" (or, for that matter, "strictly better"), there will be people weighing in with sometimes rather obscure scenarios in which said statement is not true.

[trivialknot]

Here are some money density calculations with peddler vs caravan guard.

Suppose you shuffle every N turns.  N doesn't have to be an integer because we're averaging.  Each peddler adds a value of 1/N coins per turn.  Assuming you're not using the reaction, each caravan guard adds a value of 1/(N+1) coins per turn, because cards played on the last turn skip a shuffle.

Peddler is at its best when N is small.  Caravan Guard is also at its best when N is small.  But the difference between peddler and caravan guard is greatest in precisely that situation.  That's what makes caravan guard so weak.

Here's a hypothetical.  Say that we have three players.  Player A buys a silver each turn.  Player B buys a peddler each turn (assume they can).  Player C buys a caravan guard each turn.  In terms of money density, Player B beats Player A after turn 3.  Player C only beats Player A after turn 10!  So maybe you are better off buying those silver.

I absolutely agree that Peddler is usually better than Caravan Guard, and I also think that Caravan Guard seems pretty weak.  The hypothetical is a huge oversimplification of practical strategy though, and I don't think the data is useful.  When are you ever going to buy only Silver or Caravan Guard for 10 turns? 

Moreover, money density doesn't matter in the kinds of decks where Caravan Guard would be preferable to Silver - that is, decks that want to play a lot of actions, where Silver being a stop card is really bad.  I think that's what SCSN is getting at when he says that Silver and Caravan Guard fulfill different functions and don't really compete with each other.

That's too bad.  I was definitely hoping my absurd hypothetical would solve Dominion so we would never have to play anymore.

[Accatitippi]

Maybe this forum really is going downhill... all those unfavorable comparisons to Silver

Would you say that it's unjustifiable to compare Oasis to Silver?

If so, why?

If not, why can't Caravan Guard be compared to Silver?

Well, you can compare anything to anything, e.g. both apples and oranges are approximately spherical in shape, but the comparison between Caravan Guard and Silver is about as relevant to actual Dominion play as the one between these two tasty fruits.

Generally you want one or two Silvers if it's important to hit 5 early, or as many Silvers as possible if you're playing some sort of Big Borefest (money, slogs, Feodum games). In these situations Silver is clearly superior and the thought of getting a Caravan Guard shouldn't even enter your mind. In most other spots, however, Silver is terrible and Caravan Guard is a pretty decent choice. Since usually one of them is clearly better, they never really compete; additionally, they fulfill quite different functions, hence I don't see these comparisons as making any sense at all.

Well, they are both payload cards, and if you'll generally consider buying them in the same situations. Village and Silver fit your simile much better.
Even in an engine, you might prefer Silver (if you can draw it consistently) since it increases your deck buying power by two coins, which is almost 4 times better than Guard's 1 coin every second turn.

I would not consider Caravan Guard a payload card.  To me, payloads are big effects that you want to get out often.  Caravan Guard is just a small, inoffensive bonus.

IMO, the major difference between it and Silver that may hurt the comparison is that Caravan Guard is a cantrip while Silver is a stop card.  There are many situations where I really, really don't want to buy Silver anymore (typically after the early game), but Caravan Guard is a pretty safe pick up when there's nothing better.  Silver can hurt, Caravan Guard rarely does.

To me, payload cards are cards that increase the end productiom of your deck, that is, giving you attack, coins, actions, gains, vp, whatever.
Both Silver and CG are cheap coin payload cards, one increases your payload by more but is a stop card, the other is a cantrip, but raw power-wise does one quarter to half of what Silver does.

[werothegreat]

Most of my opinion has been said already by SCSN and eHalcyon.  I'd also add that CG gets better against Attacks, because then there is no longer a delay in its Peddling.  Yes, there's usually a better card, but if there isn't, you'll probably pick them up on after you've gotten a Silver or two.  CG is also a great, cheap target for vanilla bonus tokens.

Also, it's amusing when your opponent plays a relatively inoffensive Attack (Oracle, Fortune Teller), and you drop down 4-5 Caravan Guards, pretty much guaranteeing a Province next turn.

Opportunity cost was mentioned, I'm going to echo that.

I'm hesitant to take seriously someone's opinion on opportunity cost when they hold your opinion on Scout.

[Roadrunner7671]

Opportunity cost was mentioned, I'm going to echo that.

I'm hesitant to take seriously someone's opinion on opportunity cost when they hold your opinion on Scout.

Thanks for explaining the joke!

[Asper]

Stength aside, i think Caravan Guard does too little. Playing a card out of order is a huge breach from dominion standard rules. Doing it to get something you would have gotten either way earlier, and something pretty lame on top of that, just feels "not worth it". To me it's clearly below avarage design - at least by Dominion standards.

[Davio]

Seems to me the duration part actually hurts it because there's less chance of it being used as a reaction.

I understand the need to make a shiny new card, but having it be a regular action / reaction would have sufficed I think.

[teamrocketgrunt]

I played a game with Caravan Guard and Storyteller that had an engine culminating in a Bridge megaturn that was a little slow to build and that was hit repeatedly with discard attacks. I used Caravan Guard and Storyteller to mitigate the discards and it was.. okay. It still felt awkward though and at the end of the game I didn't really know, if I got super lucky the way that the CGs and Storytellers were shuffled or there is actually a bit of synergy there. It still feels greatly inferior to any hard counters. Or soft counters for that matter. Like Menagerie.

[LastFootnote]

I played a game with Caravan Guard and Storyteller that had an engine culminating in a Bridge megaturn that was a little slow to build and that was hit repeatedly with discard attacks. I used Caravan Guard and Storyteller to mitigate the discards and it was.. okay. It still felt awkward though and at the end of the game I didn't really know, if I got super lucky the way that the CGs and Storytellers were shuffled or there is actually a bit of synergy there. It still feels greatly inferior to any hard counters. Or soft counters for that matter. Like Menagerie.

Well, let's be fair. Menagerie is a ridiculously strong $3 card.

[iguanaiguana]

I played a game with Caravan Guard and Storyteller that had an engine culminating in a Bridge megaturn that was a little slow to build and that was hit repeatedly with discard attacks. I used Caravan Guard and Storyteller to mitigate the discards and it was.. okay. It still felt awkward though and at the end of the game I didn't really know, if I got super lucky the way that the CGs and Storytellers were shuffled or there is actually a bit of synergy there. It still feels greatly inferior to any hard counters. Or soft counters for that matter. Like Menagerie.

Well if you buy menagerie for 10 straight turns, then your money density will be a lot lower than if you had bought caravan guard for ten straight turns.

[theright555J]

I played a game with Caravan Guard and Storyteller that had an engine culminating in a Bridge megaturn that was a little slow to build and that was hit repeatedly with discard attacks. I used Caravan Guard and Storyteller to mitigate the discards and it was.. okay. It still felt awkward though and at the end of the game I didn't really know, if I got super lucky the way that the CGs and Storytellers were shuffled or there is actually a bit of synergy there. It still feels greatly inferior to any hard counters. Or soft counters for that matter. Like Menagerie.

Well if you buy menagerie for 10 straight turns, then your money density will be a lot lower than if you had bought caravan guard for ten straight turns.

If you can actually use those menageries for full effect, then money density isn't even an issue at that point. And buying 10 straight menageries with no trashing is almost as bad as village idiot.

[eHalcyon]

I played a game with Caravan Guard and Storyteller that had an engine culminating in a Bridge megaturn that was a little slow to build and that was hit repeatedly with discard attacks. I used Caravan Guard and Storyteller to mitigate the discards and it was.. okay. It still felt awkward though and at the end of the game I didn't really know, if I got super lucky the way that the CGs and Storytellers were shuffled or there is actually a bit of synergy there. It still feels greatly inferior to any hard counters. Or soft counters for that matter. Like Menagerie.

Well if you buy menagerie for 10 straight turns, then your money density will be a lot lower than if you had bought caravan guard for ten straight turns.

If you can actually use those menageries for full effect, then money density isn't even an issue at that point. And buying 10 straight menageries with no trashing is almost as bad as village idiot.

Pretty sure it's a joke.

[Donald X.]

Caravan Guard hasn't gone over as well as I would have liked so far, but I'm still a fan. It's a little lackluster sans attacks, though I still get it some. Against attacks, man, gimme my $3 peddlers.

[ackmondual]

If nothing else, Caravan Guards can be used to get you Peddlers easier.

[iguanaiguana]

If nothing else, action cards can be used to get you Peddlers easier.

[Roadrunner7671]

If nothing else, Caravan Guards can be used to get you Peddlers easier.

Have you met my little friend?
Scout!