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Author Topic: Cantrip - Trasher  (Read 6645 times)

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majiponi

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Cantrip - Trasher
« on: January 07, 2016, 11:14:35 pm »
0

What do you think?

Quote
Nurse
cost 2 - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck; you may discard it.
+1 Card
You may trash a card from your hand.

Worth gaining? It lets you trash only one card.
Proper cost? Similar to Fugitive?

Edit(Jan./9): Shifting made it too strong.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 08:47:03 am by majiponi »
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Kirian

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 11:22:03 pm »
+3

$2 is probably a low cost for this.  Most people would consider Junk Dealer strong even without its +$1... this card gives sifting instead of +$1, which is about as good.  Oh, and JD mandates trashing, and this doesn't... so while JD becomes dead after you've gotten rid of all your junk, this doesn't, and in fact remains a personal-use Spy.

This should definitely be a $5 card.
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Kirian

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 11:25:41 pm »
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As another reference point, you couldn't really price +1 Card, +1 Action, you may trash a card at $3, because everyone would open with two of them.  Maybe if trashing were mandatory you could put it at $3, but that's a tough call.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2016, 01:47:55 am »
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Pretty sure Ratcatcher is the best reference point. That also costs $2, but it is delayed a turn because of the reserve. And it doesn't sift. So yeah, this would be quite strong at $5.
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Asper

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 08:21:39 am »
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I have a card called Homunculus, which reads like this:

+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card from your hand. Trash it, discard it or put it on top of your deck.

First i tried it at $2. Then at $4. Then at $2 and with a clause that says you put it in your discard pile one shuffle later. Then at $4 with the same clause. Now it costs a Potion and trashes a Potion you have in play when bought, which is even a bit worse - and finally it seems balanced. Just to say that, from my experience i can confirm that a non-mandatory cantrip trasher is very, very strong. $5 seems appropriate for Nurse.
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majiponi

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 08:58:52 am »
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cost 5!? I didn't expected.
I started from two cards.

Quote
Nurse(Original)
cost 2 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand.

Cleaner
cost 2 - Action
+1 Action
Look at the top of your deck; you may discard it.
+1 Card

Non-mandatory trash is strong, I agree. But how about Chapel? It allows you to trash up to 4 cards. This card just lets you trash only one card. Ratcatcher waits, so it is worth 2. (Royal Carriage is stronger than Throne Room because it waits.)
Shifter. It is similar to Cartographer. I wanted a card that looks before I draw. Then I wondered this is worth buying. So I added two ideas.
Costing 2 is too cheap, I agree. But why 5?
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Asper

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 09:12:24 am »
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It has to do with the fact that cost and card strength are not linear. Chapel is an extremely strong card, to the point where it's hard to price it. If you cost it high enough, being the first player to get a Chapel may well decide the game. But, Chapel on its own is not a strategy. So if instead you cost Chapel very low, it's accessible to everyone, and gaining Chapel doesn't become a crucial achievement. It's a bit like Alms - $0 for a card costing $4 is crazy cheap, but as it's available to anyone, that's not an issue.

Huh, i guess this means a basic cantrip trasher could in fact cost $2, with the same reasoning as Chapel. I'd argue it shouldn't have abilities beyond trashing then, that make their own strategy - which in turn means it becomes probably too similar to Chapel itself.

Edit: Royal Carriage does not need to wait if you want to use it immediately. Unlike Throne Room, it never misses and multiple can be used on the same action.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 09:14:30 am by Asper »
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tristan

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 09:55:07 am »
+1

First of all, Chapel is non-terminal so you cannot directly compare it to a cantrip. Second, there is no card which is similar to Chapel. Trading post converts two cards into a Silver so unlike with Chapel there is no "coin deficit", Steward trashes only two cards but is useful later in the game and so on.
You could argue that Chapel is still too cheap or an anomaly or whatever but it doesn't matter. What matters is whether a card you design is similar enough to existing cards such that these cards can serve as a benchmark for pricing.

In the case of a non-mandatory cantrip trasher this is the case, there are two similar cards, Upgrade and Junk Dealer. They are both mandatory so they are slightly weaker but they also provide small benefits, a coin or a bit of remodeling, so they are slightly stronger than a non-mandatory cantrip trasher. The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)
Ratcatcher is far less similar than it seems at the first glance. You have to wait at least one turn until you trash and like Duration cards Reserve cards can miss the reshuffle. So you trash later / less often and as trashing is something that you want as early as possible this is a significant liability of the card. Furthermore you have to call Ratcatcher at the start of your turn, so unlike Lab+Chapel Lab+Ratcatcher is not possible.
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enfynet

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 10:58:18 am »
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Lookout would be a good example of the sifting mechanic, but that is still mandatory trashing.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 11:09:38 am »
+2

The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
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tristan

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 11:13:39 am »
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The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.
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Kirian

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2016, 11:57:20 am »
+1

The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

I think you're missing the point of discussing the anomalous nature of Chapel.  It is so powerful and so mandatory that pricing it at $5 means the lucky player who gets 5/2 has an insane lead over the 4/3 player(s). But putting it at $3 or $4 means suddenly the 5/2 opening is incredibly unlucky; unless there's a good $2 card the board, that guy opens Chapel and everyone else opens at least Chapel/Silver.  With Chapel at $2, a 5/2 opening is still lucky but not nearly as powerful.

And of course Chapel's power is only huge in the opening... so pricing it at $6 wasn't a good idea either.  It suddenly becomes a dud.

Junk Dealer and Upgrade are powerful, but not as powerful in the opening as Chapel; therefore they become powerful $5s.  Now the question is:  is this proposed card as mandatory as Chapel, and is it as powerful as Chapel?  I think the answers are yes, and no.  That suggests that it should be priced like Junk Dealer at $5.  But if the answers are yes to both, you have to at least consider a $2 price point.  It's an interesting discussion to have.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2016, 11:57:35 am »
+2

The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

And Ratcatcher.

Ratcatcher's waiting does NOT make it stronger. It makes it way weaker. It's not like Royal Carriage at all. Royal Carriage can be played and called in the same turn, meaning you can use it every turn. Ratcatcher's waiting is more like how Durations work. Durations are weaker than they would be normally because it is impossible to play them every turn, and they miss the shuffle twice as often. Ratcatcher is the same. Ratcatcher's reserve effect is a nerf, in the same way that Teacher's reserve effect is. It slows it down.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 12:00:04 pm »
+3

The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

I think you're missing the point of discussing the anomalous nature of Chapel.  It is so powerful and so mandatory that pricing it at $5 means the lucky player who gets 5/2 has an insane lead over the 4/3 player(s). But putting it at $3 or $4 means suddenly the 5/2 opening is incredibly unlucky; unless there's a good $2 card the board, that guy opens Chapel and everyone else opens at least Chapel/Silver.  With Chapel at $2, a 5/2 opening is still lucky but not nearly as powerful.

And of course Chapel's power is only huge in the opening... so pricing it at $6 wasn't a good idea either.  It suddenly becomes a dud.

Junk Dealer and Upgrade are powerful, but not as powerful in the opening as Chapel; therefore they become powerful $5s.  Now the question is:  is this proposed card as mandatory as Chapel, and is it as powerful as Chapel?  I think the answers are yes, and no.  That suggests that it should be priced like Junk Dealer at $5.  But if the answers are yes to both, you have to at least consider a $2 price point.  It's an interesting discussion to have.

Along with all this; there's another thing about why Chapel is . The general rule is that cards are as cheap as they can be without causing problems. One of the big differences between a cheap card and an expensive card is how many of them you can get. Being able to get a lot of Junk Dealers is a problem, because you want a lot of Junk Dealers early on. If they cost , you'd pretty much always buy one your first 2-4 turns. But with Chapel, you rarely want more than 1 of them. So no reason they can't be cheap.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 12:32:05 pm »
+2

Other aspect of Ratcatcher that makes it weaker is that it can only be used on your starting hand. Unless you have Duration draw, you will only have 5 cards to choose from.

Junk gets harder and harder to hit with Ratcatcher as the game goes on.  Any junk you draw during your turn can't be targeted until after the next shuffle.

eHalcyon

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2016, 01:49:07 pm »
0

My rule of thumb is that a basic cantrip mandatory trasher is probably a $4 card.  With any benefit (+$1, card gain, not being mandatory), it will probably be worth $5.  Junk Dealer and Upgrade are the best reference points.  Ratcatcher is too different, IMO, since the Reserve aspect is a really big change to how it plays out.
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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2016, 03:27:48 pm »
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The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

And Ratcatcher.

Ratcatcher's waiting does NOT make it stronger. It makes it way weaker. It's not like Royal Carriage at all. Royal Carriage can be played and called in the same turn, meaning you can use it every turn. Ratcatcher's waiting is more like how Durations work. Durations are weaker than they would be normally because it is impossible to play them every turn, and they miss the shuffle twice as often. Ratcatcher is the same. Ratcatcher's reserve effect is a nerf, in the same way that Teacher's reserve effect is. It slows it down.

Except that with Teacher, you almost always want to call it ASAP, whereas with Ratcatcher, you can just wait for a hand to come where you want to trash a card. I disagree and I think that the pros and cons cancel each other out.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2016, 03:57:41 pm »
+1

The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

And Ratcatcher.

Ratcatcher's waiting does NOT make it stronger. It makes it way weaker. It's not like Royal Carriage at all. Royal Carriage can be played and called in the same turn, meaning you can use it every turn. Ratcatcher's waiting is more like how Durations work. Durations are weaker than they would be normally because it is impossible to play them every turn, and they miss the shuffle twice as often. Ratcatcher is the same. Ratcatcher's reserve effect is a nerf, in the same way that Teacher's reserve effect is. It slows it down.

Except that with Teacher, you almost always want to call it ASAP, whereas with Ratcatcher, you can just wait for a hand to come where you want to trash a card. I disagree and I think that the pros and cons cancel each other out.

You almost always want to call Ratcatcher ASAP as well.  Trashing is powerful and having it delayed or missing the shuffle is a major drawback.  Getting to selectively trash cards in the late game is usually a  minor bonus.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2016, 05:07:10 pm »
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The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.
As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

And Ratcatcher.

Ratcatcher's waiting does NOT make it stronger. It makes it way weaker. It's not like Royal Carriage at all. Royal Carriage can be played and called in the same turn, meaning you can use it every turn. Ratcatcher's waiting is more like how Durations work. Durations are weaker than they would be normally because it is impossible to play them every turn, and they miss the shuffle twice as often. Ratcatcher is the same. Ratcatcher's reserve effect is a nerf, in the same way that Teacher's reserve effect is. It slows it down.

Except that with Teacher, you almost always want to call it ASAP, whereas with Ratcatcher, you can just wait for a hand to come where you want to trash a card. I disagree and I think that the pros and cons cancel each other out.

Trashers are powerful because they clear out your starting 10 junk cards. Until you have already used Ratcatcher several times, you are going to call it the first chance you get 99% of the time. If you are drawing hands with no cards you want to trash in it, then it's either because the trasher has already done it's job and is no longer very useful, or it's way too late in the game to expect a trasher to be of much use.

Yes, later in the game Ratcatcher can be nice to be able to get rid of a couple Curses that you've gotten stuck with or something, and for this purpose, you'll keep it on the mat until the right time. But that's not what makes trashers good.
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majiponi

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2016, 10:07:53 am »
0

There is another card which is similar to cantrip-trasher; Raze. It allows to trash from 4 cards (instead of 5), non-mandatory; it can trash itself when you finish trashing Estates. It is 2-cost .
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enfynet

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2016, 10:20:03 am »
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Well, I'd argue that it is mandatory, with the penalty of self trashing if you don't pick a target card.
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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2016, 10:29:55 am »
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Well, I'd argue that it is mandatory, with the penalty of self trashing if you don't pick a target card.

I'd say that the self-trashing is why it doesn't cost more than it does (plus, at $5, it would be strictly worse than Apprentice).
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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2016, 11:02:47 am »
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Well, I'd argue that it is mandatory, with the penalty of self trashing if you don't pick a target card.

I'd say that the self-trashing is why it doesn't cost more than it does (plus, at $5, it would be strictly worse than Apprentice).

I'd say that the self-trashing makes the card even better. It doesn't become a dead card once it can't do anything, anymore.
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enfynet

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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2016, 11:04:49 am »
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It's a sifter, more than just a cantrip, unless you're using it to kill Copper or Curses.
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Re: Cantrip - Trasher
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2016, 02:39:48 pm »
+1

It's a sifter, more than just a cantrip, unless you're using it to kill Copper or Curses.

Right.  It doesn't draw when trashing Copper, which is the most common case.
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