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Author Topic: Disciple vs. Teacher  (Read 5787 times)

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shark_bait

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Disciple vs. Teacher
« on: January 07, 2016, 11:10:14 am »
+4

I just played my first game of Dominion with the Peasant line last night with my wife.  It was a great game but it made me think of some relevant F.DS discussion topics.

Let's first stir the pot with a potential controversial statement. 

Disciple is better than Teacher because Teacher is too slow and the opportunity cost of not TR'ing + gaining a copy of an action card is too high.

My opinion may or may not be this far to the left but I'm interested in other opinions on this subject;
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 11:17:23 am »
+4

I often get two Peasants, one to turn into a Teacher, and the other to keep as a Disciple.

And I've played a number of games where Disciple is the reason you go for Peasant at all.  So that statement doesn't seem all that controversial to me.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 11:17:57 am »
+2

In the limited experience playing with this line, I have usually ended up with one Teacher and one Disciple (that I never upgrade) in my deck. Teacher is "slow", but I've found that I only bother with it if its very likely I can play it the turn after I acquire it.
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 11:21:04 am »
+3

Well, a little history. Teacher was originally just an Action card that did what the Reserve's call effect does now. Donald felt it was too strong; like whoever got Teacher first just won. There was some disagreement, but in the end it is as you see it. Maybe it's weak and maybe it's not, but it's possible that the next best thing (Action Teacher) was indeed too strong.

There are definitely advantages to having it as a Reserve. It makes tracking easier; it was much more common with the Action Teacher that you'd play some copies of a card before Teach and some after, and only some of them would have a token effect. Also it makes the decision of which token to apply where a bit more tactical, since your starting hand may influence your decision.

As to Disciple vs. Teacher, I think it depends on both the board and the state of the game, but usually I would upgrade one of my Disciples to a Teacher. Time may prove me wrong!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:22:11 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 11:21:52 am »
+2

I agree that in general you want one of each by the end game. Teacher is very, very, slow, but there is basically guaranteed engine potential on any board if you can get Teacher up and running quickly. That's certainly a big if, yes, but it's just so strong to add card and action tokens to piles. Plus Disciple's throne-and-gain adds a lot of synergy as you'll be getting more copies of cards that hopefully have tokens on them.
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shark_bait

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 11:28:30 am »
+1

Well, a little history. Teacher was originally just an Action card that did what the Reserve's call effect does now. Donald felt it was too strong; like whoever got Teacher first just won. There was some disagreement, but in the end it is as you see it. Maybe it's weak and maybe it's not, but it's possible that the next best thing (Action Teacher) was indeed too strong.

There are definitely advantages to having it as a Reserve. It makes tracking easier; it was much more common with the Action Teacher that you'd play some copies of a card before Teach and some after, and only some of them would have a token effect. Also it makes the decision of which token to apply where a bit more tactical, since your starting hand may influence your decision.

As to Disciple vs. Teacher, I think it depends on both the board and the state of the game, but usually I would upgrade one of my Disciples to a Teacher. Time may prove me wrong!

What was the cost of said action card?  Inheritance is $8 and that is just for the +Card token.  My guess would be $10?  I guess it would be similar to how getting that first Platinum in a Colony game can snowball you ahead into getting more Platinum.

My thought is that you probably want to get a Teacher, but it really is a big cost.  In the transition from Disciple to Teacher you would miss out on 2 TR effects + 2 extra gains.  It's hard to quantify, but this situation doesn't seem clear cut.  Probably quite game dependent.  If the game is anywhere close to being done, you might want to skip the Teacher.
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AdamH

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 11:31:41 am »
+1

Many times, by the time you get Disciples online, the piles of the great things you want to gain are empty, at least if you're playing competent opponents.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 11:37:52 am »
+3

Well, a little history. Teacher was originally just an Action card that did what the Reserve's call effect does now. Donald felt it was too strong; like whoever got Teacher first just won. There was some disagreement, but in the end it is as you see it. Maybe it's weak and maybe it's not, but it's possible that the next best thing (Action Teacher) was indeed too strong.

There are definitely advantages to having it as a Reserve. It makes tracking easier; it was much more common with the Action Teacher that you'd play some copies of a card before Teach and some after, and only some of them would have a token effect. Also it makes the decision of which token to apply where a bit more tactical, since your starting hand may influence your decision.

As to Disciple vs. Teacher, I think it depends on both the board and the state of the game, but usually I would upgrade one of my Disciples to a Teacher. Time may prove me wrong!

What was the cost of said action card?  Inheritance is $8 and that is just for the +Card token.  My guess would be $10?  I guess it would be similar to how getting that first Platinum in a Colony game can snowball you ahead into getting more Platinum.

Not like a kingdom card, you still had to upgrade to Teacher, it was just a straight Action card that placed tokens. So you play Teacher once: boom +cards. Then the very next turn you play Teacher again: boom +$/actions/buys (and probably get to use some of those bonuses that very turn). Next turn you are slapping your third token down. The Reserve version makes this process take 2 turns to get another token out and also the tokens come into effect later.
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 11:39:33 am »
+1

Well, a little history. Teacher was originally just an Action card that did what the Reserve's call effect does now. Donald felt it was too strong; like whoever got Teacher first just won. There was some disagreement, but in the end it is as you see it. Maybe it's weak and maybe it's not, but it's possible that the next best thing (Action Teacher) was indeed too strong.

There are definitely advantages to having it as a Reserve. It makes tracking easier; it was much more common with the Action Teacher that you'd play some copies of a card before Teach and some after, and only some of them would have a token effect. Also it makes the decision of which token to apply where a bit more tactical, since your starting hand may influence your decision.

As to Disciple vs. Teacher, I think it depends on both the board and the state of the game, but usually I would upgrade one of my Disciples to a Teacher. Time may prove me wrong!

What was the cost of said action card?  Inheritance is $8 and that is just for the +Card token.  My guess would be $10?  I guess it would be similar to how getting that first Platinum in a Colony game can snowball you ahead into getting more Platinum.

Not like a kingdom card, you still had to upgrade to Teacher, it was just a straight Action card that placed tokens. So you play Teacher once: boom +cards. Then the very next turn you play Teacher again: boom +$/actions/buys (and probably get to use some of those bonuses that very turn). Next turn you are slapping your third token down. The Reserve version makes this process take 2 turns to get another token out and also the tokens come into effect later.

Okay, that makes sense.  That ups the power of the card substantially.  I can see why it got changed.
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Limetime

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2016, 11:53:45 am »
+1

In my experience (~4 games) I usually get one teacher and as many disciples as I can. You shouldn't upgrade your disciple into a teacher unless you have a prime target for your tokens especially your action/card tokens. Disciple provides good pile control. Disciple has a problem where you need to throne an action but you don't want to lower the pile. My rough estimate is that power wise disciple ≈ king's court   
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2016, 07:30:15 pm »
0

In my experience (~4 games) I usually get one teacher and as many disciples as I can. You shouldn't upgrade your disciple into a teacher unless you have a prime target for your tokens especially your action/card tokens. Disciple provides good pile control. Disciple has a problem where you need to throne an action but you don't want to lower the pile. My rough estimate is that power wise disciple ≈ king's court

Nah, King's Court is still better than Disciple. There's the problem with pile lowering that you mentioned, and the fact that you need to spend an extra action if you want to play an Action card thrice (plus you need to draw it first). Of course, gaining an extra engine component is also useful, but by the time you get to play it a King's Court would have already boosted your economy enough that you could have just bought it instead.

But Disciple is still pretty awesome. I'm not sure if it's better than Teacher though. I guess it depends on the board.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 08:51:12 pm »
0

You want Teacher a lot of the time but not 100% of the time. I especially think that if you have a chance to lock your opponent out of the Disciples that will pretty much win you the game.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 09:23:39 pm »
0

If I don't forget to swap out my Travelers, I can get Teacher very quickly as my opponent is usually less skilled than me IRL (excluding tournaments). So getting an early Teacher is super good for me, and I think Teacher is good. Slow does not mean bad. I mean, look at Scout/Great Hall. It's slow, but it gets the job done every single time. If you don't believe me, then:  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/promise
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 09:38:53 pm »
+47

If I don't forget to swap out my Travelers, I can get Teacher very quickly as my opponent is usually less skilled than me IRL (excluding tournaments). So getting an early Teacher is super good for me, and I think Teacher is good. Slow does not mean bad. I mean, look at Scout/Great Hall. It's slow, but it gets the job done every single time. If you don't believe me, then:  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/promise

I am in my room, sitting on my computer, browsing F.DS. I scroll down the page, innocently, oblivious to the trap that lies in wait. Then it happens. Another post by Roadrunner7671. Another Scout joke.

I freeze. Sweat brings to form on my forehead, on my body. A sense of nausea rises in my gut.

“Please,” I whimper. “Please. Not today. Oh god, not today. Not another Scout joke. Please.”

I am in a small room, deep beneath the ground. The walls and floors are stainless steal. I am strapped to a table. Around me are the instruments of torture. Needles and blades and pulleys are visible in the edge of my vision, but these are merely the physical tools. It is the words that I fear, the words that I can't keep out of my brain. Roadrunner7671 stands above me. His expression is not unkind.

“Please,” I say, the blood pooling in my mouth. “Please.”

“If you want a picture of the future,” he says, “Imagine a forum poster reading a Scout joke- forever.”

I make a sound that might be laughter or might be sobbing. Because I've seen the truth. Roadrunner7671's relentless onslaught is only the culmination of our own sins. He is a dark mirror, reflecting our true selves back to us. We balk from him because we balk from ourselves. We have all made Scout jokes in our moments of weakness.

We are all Roadrunner7671.

I am standing on a desolate wasteland. The wind that howls past my ears is a voice that whispers my failings to me. In the distant heavens I can catch glimpses of a better world, a better forum, where there is quality discussion of Dominion strategy. I know that it is only there to torment me. I can never reach, not because of something external that blocks my path, but because of who I am, because of who I will always be.

“Please,” I say. “I want to change. I want to believe that I can change. I want this to not be what is true. I want this to not be who I am.

“Please.

“Please.”
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Kfm

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2016, 10:13:00 pm »
0

If I don't forget to swap out my Travelers, I can get Teacher very quickly as my opponent is usually less skilled than me IRL (excluding tournaments). So getting an early Teacher is super good for me, and I think Teacher is good. Slow does not mean bad. I mean, look at Scout/Great Hall. It's slow, but it gets the job done every single time. If you don't believe me, then:  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/promise

I am in my room, sitting on my computer, browsing F.DS. I scroll down the page, innocently, oblivious to the trap that lies in wait. Then it happens. Another post by Roadrunner7671. Another Scout joke.

I freeze. Sweat brings to form on my forehead, on my body. A sense of nausea rises in my gut.

“Please,” I whimper. “Please. Not today. Oh god, not today. Not another Scout joke. Please.”

I am in a small room, deep beneath the ground. The walls and floors are stainless steal. I am strapped to a table. Around me are the instruments of torture. Needles and blades and pulleys are visible in the edge of my vision, but these are merely the physical tools. It is the words that I fear, the words that I can't keep out of my brain. Roadrunner7671 stands above me. His expression is not unkind.

“Please,” I say, the blood pooling in my mouth. “Please.”

“If you want a picture of the future,” he says, “Imagine a forum poster reading a Scout joke- forever.”

I make a sound that might be laughter or might be sobbing. Because I've seen the truth. Roadrunner7671's relentless onslaught is only the culmination of our own sins. He is a dark mirror, reflecting our true selves back to us. We balk from him because we balk from ourselves. We have all made Scout jokes in our moments of weakness.

We are all Roadrunner7671.

I am standing on a desolate wasteland. The wind that howls past my ears is a voice that whispers my failings to me. In the distant heavens I can catch glimpses of a better world, a better forum, where there is quality discussion of Dominion strategy. I know that it is only there to torment me. I can never reach, not because of something external that blocks my path, but because of who I am, because of who I will always be.

“Please,” I say. “I want to change. I want to believe that I can change. I want this to not be what is true. I want this to not be who I am.

“Please.

“Please.”

Behold, the most eloquent and powerful thread derailment in history.  Truly magnificent and hilarious and worth it.
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Limetime

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 10:19:41 pm »
+1

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 10:22:33 pm »
0

We are all Roadrunner7671.
What's wrong with that quote? It left me speechless.
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Limetime

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 10:26:30 pm »
0

We are all Roadrunner7671.
What's wrong with that quote? It left me speechless.
Nothing is wrong with it except everyone should sig it (I can't because I'm on tablet right now)
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 10:27:59 pm »
0

We are all Roadrunner7671.
What's wrong with that quote? It left me speechless.
Nothing is wrong with it except everyone should sig it (I can't because I'm on tablet right now)
How do you sig something from a computer? I can't figure it out!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 10:58:11 pm »
+26

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 11:05:54 pm »
+1


Did you make this? Because this is worth more than gold.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 04:32:59 pm by Roadrunner7671 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 11:34:06 pm »
+1

Did you make this? Because this is worth more than gold.

I sure did.

To bring things back on topic...

I haven't played with Adventures at all.  My intuition is that Teacher may be slow to get started, but can snowball drastically once it gets going.  Disciple should often be a key part of that, since it will help you play and gain more copies of buffed cards.
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 11:56:26 pm »
0

We are all Roadrunner7671.
I thought we were all WW?

I will actually bulk up on Fugitives as quickly as possible to block Disciple and Teacher. This is much harder to do with the Page-Champion line.
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2016, 12:29:24 am »
+3

Oh my god. What has happened here? Do all the threads on the forum get derailed so easily? And A Drowned Kernel is a dark, dark man.
And I'm preparing for a Scout with blood red eyes to haunt my dreams.
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Re: Disciple vs. Teacher
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2016, 02:26:30 am »
+1

The big issue with those Traveler cards in general is the opportunity cost early on. Sure, with a 5/2 you might as well get a Page or Peasant, but with a 3/4, sacrificing one of your early economy or trashing buys for some bad $2 is quite an investment. Even after your second shuffle you often want to get things going instead of getting stuff you don't really want at this point. However, that's often when I get Page/Peasant myself - after trashing and with the remaining $2. But I have no idea if that's good or if you'd rather get one on turn 1/2 (sure, it depends on the board, but there has to be a default line).

As for Teacher/Disciple: The great thing is, contrary to the Page carreer, you can really a bunch of those Traveler cards, since Disciple is such a great card that it's often worth the effort. Teacher on the other hand is REALLY slow and you have to make sure you REALLY need its effect. If you actually need it, I can also see cashing in more than one Disciple for Teachers (if you can profit from both, say, +$ and +card), since it's ususally not worth it to play one Teacher twice.
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