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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part III  (Read 652766 times)

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2550 on: June 21, 2017, 05:39:56 pm »
+1

Note: I think the scaling might actually not be set so 80% get at least 100, but it's definitely a majority scoring at least that amount and an average well above 100. And honestly, the results that come out of this are pretty useless, for a few reasons.

There's not much scrutiny and oversight for the Key Stage 2 SATs, perhaps because the kids don't get any qualification from them, just a result, perhaps because they're the only tests kids do in Primary School - so about 4-5 tests (English and Maths, possibly also Science - not entirely sure), once a year. Compared to Secondary Schools which have literally hundreds of exams each year, often over several different exam seasons, plus several mocks done under formal conditions, and the exams lead to something so there's a lot more rules and regulations regarding their security.

Since those few tests are one of the main things a primary school gets judged on, they have heavy incentive to cheat. This can be done in a few ways - overlooking kids breaking normal exam conditions such as helping each other or quiet wispers, having posters/display boards with relevant/useful work still visible, or even more extreme things like teachers giving kids answers or hints. Obviously, not good when it happens. We have no formal evidence of it happening (I work in a Secondary School maths department) but there's a few primary schools we've noticed. The kids from there always seem to have considerably better results than their actual ability shows in year 7. On the old level system (levels 3-5), it could be a whole level different or more when we give them tests - to put that into context, kids are expected to make about 2/3rds of a level of progress each year, so this is like they've regressed 1-2 years of progress compared to what the SATs said they were at, right after they arrive.

Primary Schools also end up teaching to the test, since they want their results to be as good as possible. Well, okay, even Secondary Schools do that, but it's more of an issue with Primaries since they're feeding kids up the system. The kids aren't getting anything out of this, except maybe some ego from a good result. But their understanding suffers, since they're being taught how to solve SATs paper problems, not how to use maths in general. With GCSEs (year 11/16YO tests), you teach to the test and a kid gets a good grade. Their actual understanding may be a tiny bit worse off than if you taught more thoroughly and whatever, but their employers/colleges care more about that grade number for getting on the course.

On top of that, to get good results, what a lot of Primaries do in year 6 now is having longer Maths and English lessons throughout the first 2/3rds of year 6, then after the SATs in early May, they do no more Maths/English for the rest of the year. What that ends up meaning is that between May and September when they start Secondary School they do no Maths, and little direct English - and especially in Maths, their ability suffers as a result. We're getting kids into school who in theory are really good at maths, but in practice are struggling with questions aimed at middle ability kids, since they haven't done maths in so long. This bit does eventually even out a little, but they still end up a bit weaker thanks to it.

What my school has done in the past is to give kids a test just a week or two into year 7, and arranged ability based sets on the results of that test. The result would normally be pretty good - most kids, after doing tests at the end of the first term, would get results which more or less match their set - you'd normally see maybe 5-10% of kids moving up or down one set because we've noticed they're too adept/not strong enough at maths compared to the rest of the group. This year, we used the SATs results, for speed at the start of the year. And oh boy was it interesting. A good 30-40% of the year group had to move sets. About 2-3% of the year had to move by more than one set, indicating that they'd been massively misplaced. One of the middle ability sets had almost 60% of the kids move up or down, so it basically became a completely new set. You get the idea - these results were crazy inaccurate compared to our own measurements.

And the best part of all this? Secondary Schools get measured quite heavily at the moment based on kids making "expected progress". What is this expected progress based on, you ask? Why, their KS2 SATs results, of course! We get judged, for instance, on a kid making little progress from their fantastic KS2 result, when we know that result was probably gotten through cheating/coaching through exams and that we can't expect to match that, since the kid just isn't that adept at maths. Of course, that's not to say we're the only school facing that issue, but it's bad for us and it's also bad for balancing support - the school is expected to provide extra support to these "underachieving" kids, since well <i>obviously</i> they can do better if you look at their KS2 results, but of course this extra support has to come from somewhere, so it eats up resources that could better support other students who might benefit more from it.

Sorry this got a little ranty. Education in the UK is a bit of a mess at the moment, and the new KS2 SATs are certainly not helping the issue. But maybe this was an entertaining or at least enlightening read - or at least helped you get some sleep? Any of those would be a success I guess.
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pacovf

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2551 on: June 21, 2017, 05:55:18 pm »
+1

What my school has done in the past is to give kids a test just a week or two into year 7, and arranged ability based sets on the results of that test. The result would normally be pretty good - most kids, after doing tests at the end of the first term, would get results which more or less match their set - you'd normally see maybe 5-10% of kids moving up or down one set because we've noticed they're too adept/not strong enough at maths compared to the rest of the group. This year, we used the SATs results, for speed at the start of the year. And oh boy was it interesting. A good 30-40% of the year group had to move sets. About 2-3% of the year had to move by more than one set, indicating that they'd been massively misplaced. One of the middle ability sets had almost 60% of the kids move up or down, so it basically became a completely new set. You get the idea - these results were crazy inaccurate compared to our own measurements.

To be perfectly fair / play Devil's advocate, you are measuring the kids' abilities to do well on your own tests, so obviously your own tests will be a better predictor than somebody else's.

But I get your point.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2552 on: June 21, 2017, 08:43:13 pm »
0

Sorry this got a little ranty. Education in the UK is a bit of a mess at the moment, and the new KS2 SATs are certainly not helping the issue. But maybe this was an entertaining or at least enlightening read - or at least helped you get some sleep? Any of those would be a success I guess.

Well, it made me realize that the US isn't the only country doing things this stupidly.

----

On the original subject, I agree with the earlier statement that increasing a grade is fine, but arbitrarily decreasing a grade is not.  At least at the places I've taught, you're expected to have a grading scale in the syllabus.  So if the scale says 80% is the lowest for a B-, and a student gets 81%, you cannot give them a grade lower than B-.

However, if the student earned a B- for 81% but the grade was entered as a B+, somehow you never get complaints.

My standard scaling system is that I take the median score and scale it upward to 80 (B-/C+ cutoff) if needed, by stretching in a linear fashion; if the real median is lower, everyone gets a scaled score of

score + [(100-score)*((80-median)/(100-median))]
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2553 on: June 22, 2017, 02:44:41 am »
0

We have an eerily similar problem in Italy as well.
Fortunately these standardized tests matter a lot less here, because the reliability is crazy low due to cheating.
I believe they are mostly used to single out problem schools, but do not have a big impact on the students' careers.

I think that's one nice thing about the system here - grades in general matter quite little before university, so you cannot get screwed by a difficult teacher or a bad year.

And here done random considerations:
I've generally been opposed to grading everything - either you're good enough, or you are not. Maybe add one very good mark.
My school's grading system for example is crazy dangerous. The general concept is based on the fact that med students are hard working nerds who care a lot about grades (and sure most of us are). We have a scale going 1 to 30+, 18 is the first passing grade.
But most of the grades given are above 27: the general perception (shared by the professors) is that 27 is mediocrity, 23 is utter failure. 18 is catastrophe.
The system works ok in describing various shades of success - which is pretty useless since it's a good measure of hardworkiness (?), but not of what the student will know 3 years later, which is when it will matter.
But the system fails completely in its most important function: ensuring that the unbaked cakes are stopped before becoming doctors. If I suddenly stopped caring, I could still get through med school with passing grades. I wouldn't get a great job maybe but I'd get one for sure.

In fact, exchange students coming here are shocked at how easy med school is - if you are not part of the "23 sucks" culture, then it *is* incredibly easy.

Am I grumpy today.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:47:33 am by Accatitippi »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2554 on: June 22, 2017, 11:12:12 am »
+2

"You can divide me in 2, but 1 will always remain," Tom said oddly.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2555 on: June 22, 2017, 11:12:53 am »
+1

"You can divide me in 2, but 1 will always remain," Tom said oddly.
"My wedding was cancelled a tenth of the way through," Tom said, decimated.

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2556 on: June 22, 2017, 11:29:02 am »
0

"You can divide me in 2, but 1 will always remain," Tom said oddly.
"My wedding was cancelled a tenth of the way through," Tom said, decimated.

Wouldn't that be nine tenths of the way through?
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2557 on: June 22, 2017, 11:48:44 am »
+3

"I always count by 3s," Tom said discretely.

Though there may need to be a ruling on homonyms.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2558 on: June 22, 2017, 12:17:12 pm »
0

Assuming you're drawing from the same source I do, I must admit that I only got a rather small proportion of puns. Most of them went over my head.

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2559 on: June 22, 2017, 12:42:24 pm »
+1

What my school has done in the past is to give kids a test just a week or two into year 7, and arranged ability based sets on the results of that test. The result would normally be pretty good - most kids, after doing tests at the end of the first term, would get results which more or less match their set - you'd normally see maybe 5-10% of kids moving up or down one set because we've noticed they're too adept/not strong enough at maths compared to the rest of the group. This year, we used the SATs results, for speed at the start of the year. And oh boy was it interesting. A good 30-40% of the year group had to move sets. About 2-3% of the year had to move by more than one set, indicating that they'd been massively misplaced. One of the middle ability sets had almost 60% of the kids move up or down, so it basically became a completely new set. You get the idea - these results were crazy inaccurate compared to our own measurements.

To be perfectly fair / play Devil's advocate, you are measuring the kids' abilities to do well on your own tests, so obviously your own tests will be a better predictor than somebody else's.

But I get your point.

We use past SATs papers, not our own tests. So it's the same kind of paper they've sat a few months before.
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Donald X.

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2560 on: June 22, 2017, 01:17:15 pm »
+10

"I gain a Gold," Tom said heroically.
"I gain a Rats," Tom said roguishly.
"I reveal Province, putting it into my hand," Tom said sagely.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2561 on: June 22, 2017, 01:28:20 pm »
0

What my school has done in the past is to give kids a test just a week or two into year 7, and arranged ability based sets on the results of that test. The result would normally be pretty good - most kids, after doing tests at the end of the first term, would get results which more or less match their set - you'd normally see maybe 5-10% of kids moving up or down one set because we've noticed they're too adept/not strong enough at maths compared to the rest of the group. This year, we used the SATs results, for speed at the start of the year. And oh boy was it interesting. A good 30-40% of the year group had to move sets. About 2-3% of the year had to move by more than one set, indicating that they'd been massively misplaced. One of the middle ability sets had almost 60% of the kids move up or down, so it basically became a completely new set. You get the idea - these results were crazy inaccurate compared to our own measurements.

To be perfectly fair / play Devil's advocate, you are measuring the kids' abilities to do well on your own tests, so obviously your own tests will be a better predictor than somebody else's.

But I get your point.

We use past SATs papers, not our own tests. So it's the same kind of paper they've sat a few months before.

I am confused. How are SAT tests a better predictor when your school uses them, rather than other schools? Just because you enforce non-cheating measures better?

Sounds like paper material to me, though maybe everyone is already aware of this.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2562 on: June 22, 2017, 02:06:38 pm »
+3

Assuming you're drawing from the same source I do, I must admit that I only got a rather small proportion of puns. Most of them went over my head.

Tom Swifty quotes are a play on word where Tom says something in an adverb way. The adverb is tied to the quote itself. I'm sure there are web sites full of them. They're usually just goofy. For example: "My car needs a new muffler," Tom said exhaustedly. Since the muffler is part of the exhaust, that ties into the adverb. They are admittedly very language-dependent.

And sometimes I just like to make some up, like the two math Swifty quotes I posted. Also: "I can't believe she's pregnant," Tom said hysterically.

I like my Swifty quotes abstruse.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2563 on: June 22, 2017, 02:11:11 pm »
0

Assuming you're drawing from the same source I do, I must admit that I only got a rather small proportion of puns. Most of them went over my head.

Tom Swifty quotes are a play on word where Tom says something in an adverb way. The adverb is tied to the quote itself. I'm sure there are web sites full of them. They're usually just goofy. For example: "My car needs a new muffler," Tom said exhaustedly. Since the muffler is part of the exhaust, that ties into the adverb. They are admittedly very language-dependent.

And sometimes I just like to make some up, like the two math Swifty quotes I posted. Also: "I can't believe she's pregnant," Tom said hysterically.

I like my Swifty quotes abstruse.

"Well, I've gotta run," Tom said swiftly.

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Kuildeous

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2564 on: June 22, 2017, 03:45:27 pm »
+2

"THE NUMBERS KEEP GOING WITH NO PATTERN!" Tom screamed irrationally.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2565 on: June 22, 2017, 03:55:36 pm »
0

that's a great one!

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2566 on: June 22, 2017, 04:09:10 pm »
0

Any other former cub/boy scouts here who remember Tom Swifty quotes from Boys Life magazine?
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2567 on: June 22, 2017, 04:12:16 pm »
+2

Here's a former scout for you:

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2568 on: June 22, 2017, 04:19:05 pm »
0

Any other former cub/boy scouts here who remember Tom Swifty quotes from Boys Life magazine?

That was so long ago.....i say as if I am actually really old. This year did mark 4 years since graduating college, 8 years since high school, so 12 years since I got my eagle scout and then didn't do anything else with scouts after that.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2569 on: June 22, 2017, 04:25:22 pm »
0

Any other former cub/boy scouts here who remember Tom Swifty quotes from Boys Life magazine?

That was so long ago.....i say as if I am actually really old. This year did mark 4 years since graduating college, 8 years since high school, so 12 years since I got my eagle scout and then didn't do anything else with scouts after that.

What did you achieve 16 years ago?
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2570 on: June 22, 2017, 04:29:22 pm »
+1

Any other former cub/boy scouts here who remember Tom Swifty quotes from Boys Life magazine?

That was so long ago.....i say as if I am actually really old. This year did mark 4 years since graduating college, 8 years since high school, so 12 years since I got my eagle scout and then didn't do anything else with scouts after that.

What did you achieve 16 years ago?

Not might actually. They let me pass the 4th grade.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2571 on: June 22, 2017, 04:53:10 pm »
0

Any other former cub/boy scouts here who remember Tom Swifty quotes from Boys Life magazine?

Yup.  Though I'm much older than e apparently.  High school was 23 years ago...

Also: "There's a bear out there," Tom said intently.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2572 on: June 22, 2017, 07:28:37 pm »
+2

For some reason the only Swifty that I can always recall is kind of RSP. Spoilered for content.

"I'm a homosexual necrophiliac," said Tom in dead earnest.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2573 on: June 23, 2017, 07:51:27 am »
+1

Any other former cub/boy scouts here who remember Tom Swifty quotes from Boys Life magazine?

In fact, I don't recall ever seeing Tom Swifty quotes anywhere outside of Boys' Life magazine while growing up. I'm sure they had to exist elsewhere, but that was indeed my main source of Tom Swifty. I'm finding a new appreciation for them nowadays. I guess they appeal to my "dad jokes" even though I'm not a dad. But you know, puns. I enjoy the challenge of making new ones up. There are so many out there, that it's possible I'm reusing some adverbs, but hopefully I introduce a new phrase to go with them.

Friend of mine had a neat one: "I'm so glad those ice balls stopped falling from the sky," Tom exhaled.

One I thought of while in the shower: "I was raised on the mean streets of Paris," Tom said ruefully.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #2574 on: June 23, 2017, 05:44:19 pm »
+1

I am confused. How are SAT tests a better predictor when your school uses them, rather than other schools? Just because you enforce non-cheating measures better?

That's one reason, yes. We know the kids have all sat the papers under the same conditions, with no additional help beyond what you're normally entitled to. So it controls for those schools whose scores seem to inflate with no real explanation (cough cheating).

Another reason is that it gives a much better indication of what the kids actually know now - recall I mentioned many of these kids will have done no/little maths between the SATs in early May and starting Secondary School in early September. Some will have forgotten various things and will be generally slower and less able to work out how to solve problems as a result.

A third reason, which actually doesn't matter so much any more, was to do with the old system which was level based. The KS2 paper was levels 3-5, but you could sit a supplementary level 6 paper. I forget the exact details but IIRC you needed to get at least a level 5 on the normal papers, and then a level 6 on that paper. Sounds reasonable, but in practice due to a slightly weird way of distributing the levels I don't understand, it was possible to get kids who were low/mid level 5 capability to get a level 6, and if they did it was all flowers and sunshine for the Primary School. But well those kids come to us, and they're typically more like low level 5 standard in most cases, with knowledge of a few slightly more advanced things, and can't really keep up in the top set(s). So for those pupils who came to us with a "level 6", there was a huge range in their actual ability which we didn't really know about. Like I mentioned, this one is obsolete now the new SATs system has come in, but it was definitely a factor before.

The final advantage is that it gave us a greater deal of information and accuracy. The SATs data we used to get was just a level and sublevel (3 sublevels per level), so basically about 9 main possible options, plus a few on nominal lower levels (2a, 2b, 2c or U). With our own tests, we could look at each individual question, or at least each main topic (Number, Algebra, Shape, Data being the four broad areas covered in KS1-3 maths) and see how kids performed. This isn't usually that valuable, since most kids don't have a particularly notable strength/weakness, but a few do, and for those having the physical data/evidence on hand is great. We also got an actual mark for each kid, between 0 and 150, which is at least a little more useful than a level. Now we get the new SATs scores, which has about 41 data points - so that's a fair bit more useful than the old numbers - but still tells us nothing about individual topics a kid might be good/bad in.

So in short... there's several advantages to using past papers instead of their KS2 results. There's disadvantages as well, of course - the main one is that it causes a lot of disruption in terms of timetabling, since we need to give these kids the tests, then change everyone's maths sets, and that can have knock on effects to other departments. It also creates a few hours of extra marking. And a particularly wily kid can work out which past paper they're doing and cheat. But it's a rare year 7 that can actually pull that off and get away with it - when a kid gets e.g. 24/60 on paper 1, then 55/60 on paper 2 and 29/30 on the mental test, we tend to get just a <i>little</i> suspicious.
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