Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[vsiewnar]

I make reference here to boards that encourage an engine-type deck to built. I am not referring to Vineyard rushes (emptying Squires, Moats and Vineyards, say)

I recently looked at Mic Qsenoch's first match of Season 12. In the last game, I observed that he started buying the Vineyards in the middle of the game and then proceeded to increase their value.

This order of buying Vineyards is something that I have observed in some of my games as well. Sometimes, it is to prevent my opponent from having more than half the Vineyards. Other times, they are apparently so tempting that I begin to purchase them mid-game too.

This is contrary to buying most other Victory cards though (ignoring the early Island, say). The usual manner is to buy them on your last turns. Little to no deck-building goes on once you start buying green cards (ignoring Haggler gains, say).

Why is it that buying Vineyards follow a different rule (sometimes, at least)? Is this the correct thing to do in these situations?

I posted this here and not on Mic Qsenoch's video to possibly hear more ideas on this issue.

[LastFootnote]

This is contrary to buying most other Victory cards though (ignoring the early Island, say). The usual manner is to buy them on your last turns. Little to no deck-building goes on once you start buying green cards (ignoring Haggler gains, say).

Why is it that buying Vineyards follow a different rule (sometimes, at least)? Is this the correct thing to do in these situations?

Two reasons. First, they cost a Potion, so normally you can only buy one per shuffle per Potion in your deck. Since you can't buy them as quickly as other Victory cards, you need to start earlier.

Second, they are very strong relative to their cost and availability, so they will be worth it in the long run even if you're hurting your deck in the short run, and also you often need to make sure you get your share. Compare Port. You don't usually want to buy villages immediately, but you risk losing the Port split if you don't snap them up as quickly as your opponent, which can be crucial if there are no other villages. You're sacrificing some momentum for a payoff later.

[Awaclus]

Second, they are very strong relative to their cost and availability, so they will be worth it in the long run even if you're hurting your deck in the short run, and also you often need to make sure you get your share. Compare Port. You don't usually want to buy villages immediately, but you risk losing the Port split if you don't snap them up as quickly as your opponent, which can be crucial if there are no other villages. You're sacrificing some momentum for a payoff later.

Mostly this. It's the correct play to get the Potion as soon as it's relatively convenient for you to get one, because that forces your opponent to get the Potion as soon as he can even if it's not as convenient for him.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I bought Vineyards too early in that game. Not sure if it was a lot too early, or just a little. I dipped for them so soon anticipating winning the split --> winning the game. There was another perfectly serviceable way to score points in that game though (Butcher/Market Square for Provinces), so I don't think winning the split was winning the game.

Also, I started greening right when I reached the draw your deck stage. Pretty bad to do in a kingdom with a whole bunch of useful piles, right as my deck can grow most explosively, I shut down most growth.

Here is the video for those who are interested, I can post the log once it shows up on Salvager.

edit: Log

[Davio]

When to buy Vineyards has a lot to do with what your opponent is doing.

If your opponent doesn't seem interested in them at all, you can obviously put it off until later and focus on building a better deck first. The upside of being the only player going for Vineyards is that your opponent will have a hard time draining the Provinces and ending the game, giving you more time to increase your Vineyards' points; you usually do have to watch out for piles though.

If your opponent does seem interested and other sources of VPs are not that relevant, winning the split is everything. As you're both greening mid-game, the game will take longer which is better for the person who has won the split since he can just gather more action cards.

Compare it to Duchy/Duke where having 5 Duchies with a crappy deck mid-game is also pretty nice since every time you spike a Duke in the end game, you get 5 VPs. If you have won the Duchy split, there's no real reason for your opponent grabbing Dukes since it will just end the game sooner and you'll likely be ahead. So your opponent has to switch to Provinces, giving you more time to grab those Dukes yourself.

[Limetime]

Vineyards is a tricky card to play. A lot of times winning the vineyards split is so important that you get potion second/third shuffle. Other times it is best to wait and focus on getting lots of vineyards. In this game I get a third shuffle potion and a second potion during my third shuffle.
I win the vineyard split 6-2. In this game the vineyard split was really important because you can't really draw your deck but there was tons of cheap actions to up your vineyards.

[GendoIkari]

My favorite thing to do with Vineyards, when it's viable: Build up a strong engine. At some point, use a turn to buy 3-4 Potions, then get 3-4 Vineyards each turn after that until they're gone.