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Author Topic: Why are engines fun?  (Read 10901 times)

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Roadrunner7671

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Why are engines fun?
« on: January 05, 2016, 09:07:00 pm »
+2

I like to play engines, but a member in my small gaming group doesn't understand why it's fun to have your deck do the same thing each turn (buy a Province, buy two Colonies, etc) is fun to play. I like to have an ultra reliable engine, but I couldn't explain to him why it's fun to do the same thing each turn.
Is it because winning is fun?
Is it the path to making your deck reliable?
What is it??
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schadd

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 09:32:36 pm »
0

same reason cookie clicker is fun, somehow
very little of engine is doing the same thing each turn i think, most of especially the strongest engine games are spent having a continual build up that lets you get more things. humans usually like to acquire a lot of things, probably because eating and shagging

winning is also fun. you made so many decisions that your opponent didn't make and then you won, this large sample size allows you to conclude that your dominance is statistically significant
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 09:38:32 pm »
+2

I like to play engines, but a member in my small gaming group doesn't understand why it's fun to have your deck do the same thing each turn (buy a Province, buy two Colonies, etc) is fun to play. I like to have an ultra reliable engine, but I couldn't explain to him why it's fun to do the same thing each turn.
Is it because winning is fun?
Is it the path to making your deck reliable?
What is it??

Scout
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 09:45:44 pm »
0

I like to play engines, but a member in my small gaming group doesn't understand why it's fun to have your deck do the same thing each turn (buy a Province, buy two Colonies, etc) is fun to play. I like to have an ultra reliable engine, but I couldn't explain to him why it's fun to do the same thing each turn.
Is it because winning is fun?
Is it the path to making your deck reliable?
What is it??

Scout
What about boards without Scout?
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liopoil

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 10:10:10 pm »
+7

Because greening is boring, and with engines you spend the least fraction of your time doing that.

EDIT1: Also winning (or losing) in style.

Also it's a bit uncommon to have an engine actually do the same exact thing every turn. Sure they can be reliable, but you are hopefully having lots of mid-turn gains, so your deck composition and buying power is unlikely to stay constant. Especially because when you go full green sometimes you ditch all your engine pieces (e.g. mining villlage, apprentice, salvager, remodelers, general TfB...)

EDIT2: Also making your own shuffle luck. Man, there are a lot of great reasons.

Also Watchtower isn't much of a BM card, though it does have a place in every deck, or failing that, in my heart.

EDIT3: Also I like sentences beginning with also.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:18:00 pm by liopoil »
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Titandrake

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 10:11:46 pm »
0

They're hard to play right during the building phase, if you like a challenge. They also give you more control over the game. In an engine, it feels like your choices play a bigger role in your success, because you chose to buy cards in this order and you chose to play in this way. You're not at the mercy of the RNG.

They're also fun because you get to do lots of stuff each turn, and you get to create a whole bigger than its sum of parts.

Playing a money deck is like throwing bigger numbers into a lottery machine in hopes you'll draw big numbers, and playing an engine is like directly upgrading the lottery machine to give you more stuff. (Don't overthink this analogy. If you think too hard, you'll realize it doesn't actually mean anything.)

Edit: I am rather more confused that someone doesn't understand why a deck buying a Province every turn is boring. If you want to win, that's a fine goal to aim for. If you want to buy random cards because you like seeing what happens, you can do that too. You just won't win as often.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:14:45 pm by Titandrake »
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 10:21:13 pm »
0

Relevant discussion

As for why a deck that buys a Province per turn reliably is fun to make, I think that's fun because it's difficult to truly achieve. The mechanics of the game make it really hard to do that, so it's fun to win the fight where everything is stacked against you.

People who don't understand what's fun about that may just not have an appreciation for what you're actually doing and how hard it is to achieve.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 10:25:51 pm »
+1

An engine doesn't necessarily do the same thing every turn.  First of all, there are the early turns spent building the engine.  Even after it's built, each turn will generally play out differently even if the final outcome (that is, what you gain) is the same.  I think the fun thing about engines is that they allow you to take and display control of your deck, and maybe even the game itself (read: pile control).  Generally speaking, a fully-functioning engine is a deck that is more powerful than any other deck archetype, and it just feels great that you made that happen and that you can keep it going.  After you've got it set up, you play out your engine turn after turn to say, look at this magnificent machine I've created.

Also note that an engine generally allows you to make more decisions each turn, which is the fun thing in most games (consider how "games" like Snakes & Ladders and War aren't very interesting because you don't actually make any decisions in them).

Basic Big Money strategies tend to be less interesting overall since they play out similarly every time, and the turn-to-turn decisions are trivial more often.  Yes, I will play this Smithy.  Yes, I will play all my Treasures.  Yes, I'll buy the Province/Gold/Duchy/Silver.  It's usually a lot more scripted and a lot less challenging than engines IMO.

These are generalizations though.  There are certainly interesting Big Money games, and there are other deck archetypes besides these two.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 04:59:22 am »
+3

I think engines are okay, but they tend to make turns longer. Which matters a lot more in multiplayer games (it's not exactly rare i play with 3+ other people). I enjoy the relatively short turns on non-engine boards, allthough i know playing a successful engine is fun. It just doesn't make up for the time it takes, especially if other players do it.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 05:20:11 am »
+4

Which matters a lot more in multiplayer games (it's not exactly rare i play with 3+ other people).

Well, that doesn't mean engines aren't fun, it just means that multiplayer games aren't fun.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 05:32:01 am »
+1

I kind of understand, because with big engines and more than 2 players, there's just a lot of downtime.

You can't really prepare your turn while another player is doing his, let's say you have a simple Smithy, you can't play it out of turn, draw a Moat and reveal it; would be fun though.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 07:06:52 am »
+4

You can't really prepare your turn while another player is doing his, let's say you have a simple Smithy, you can't play it out of turn, draw a Moat and reveal it; would be fun though.
I've always wanted to try outright-race Dominion. 
You have a friendly agreement that noone will cheat, and you all just free-for-all take your turns as fast as you can, shouting "Witch!" whenever you play a curser and yelling "BINGO!" when the Provinces run out or the game 3-piles.  Then count your points.

Obviously a stupid idea in terms of competition, but, I suspect, hilarious.  Noone will play it with me because I'm a much faster shuffler than most of my Dominion playing friends.
Has anyone tried this?
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2016, 07:18:04 am »
+1

You can't really prepare your turn while another player is doing his, let's say you have a simple Smithy, you can't play it out of turn, draw a Moat and reveal it; would be fun though.
I've always wanted to try outright-race Dominion. 
You have a friendly agreement that noone will cheat, and you all just free-for-all take your turns as fast as you can, shouting "Witch!" whenever you play a curser and yelling "BINGO!" when the Provinces run out or the game 3-piles.  Then count your points.

Obviously a stupid idea in terms of competition, but, I suspect, hilarious.  Noone will play it with me because I'm a much faster shuffler than most of my Dominion playing friends.
Has anyone tried this?
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liopoil

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2016, 07:27:50 am »
+5

"What? Dude I totally shuffled thoroughly"
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2016, 07:53:16 am »
+1

You could just choose not to shuffle, just turn over your discard pile.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2016, 08:42:13 am »
+2

You can't really prepare your turn while another player is doing his, let's say you have a simple Smithy, you can't play it out of turn, draw a Moat and reveal it; would be fun though.
I've always wanted to try outright-race Dominion. 
You have a friendly agreement that noone will cheat, and you all just free-for-all take your turns as fast as you can, shouting "Witch!" whenever you play a curser and yelling "BINGO!" when the Provinces run out or the game 3-piles.  Then count your points.

Obviously a stupid idea in terms of competition, but, I suspect, hilarious.  Noone will play it with me because I'm a much faster shuffler than most of my Dominion playing friends.
Has anyone tried this?

Well, the MMF's Blitz mode is not that different in practice, the main difference is that it's not a stupid idea.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2016, 08:45:48 am »
+2

Well, the MMF's Blitz mode is not that different in practice, the main difference is that it's not a stupid and hilarious idea.
FTFY
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Asper

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2016, 12:09:50 pm »
+1

Which matters a lot more in multiplayer games (it's not exactly rare i play with 3+ other people).

Well, that doesn't mean engines aren't fun, it just means that multiplayer games aren't fun.

Multiplayer-engine games aren't fun. This doesn't mean multiplayer games aren't fun any more than it means engine games aren't fun. I would really appreciate if you could stop ridiculing other opinions than yours like this, especially when your "reasoning" holds no water.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2016, 12:19:58 pm »
0

Which matters a lot more in multiplayer games (it's not exactly rare i play with 3+ other people).

Well, that doesn't mean engines aren't fun, it just means that multiplayer games aren't fun.

Multiplayer-engine games aren't fun. This doesn't mean multiplayer games aren't fun any more than it means engine games aren't fun. I would really appreciate if you could stop ridiculing other opinions than yours like this, especially when your "reasoning" holds no water.
So on a multiplayer board with a strong engine, what do you suggest doing?

What do you suggest doing if you know no one is going for the engine?
(These are two separate questions.)
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trivialknot

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2016, 12:24:16 pm »
0

My understanding of an engine is an action-dense deck, but here we seem to be talking about engines that draw your deck?

Going by the Johnny/Timmy/Spike player typology, I think it appeals to Timmy.  There's a big wow factor in drawing your deck and doing lots of stuff.

I'm more of a Johnny.  My favorite thing to do is not to make an engine, but to take advantage of the most ridiculous synergy I can find on the board.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2016, 12:27:48 pm »
0

My understanding of an engine is an action-dense deck, but here we seem to be talking about engines that draw your deck?

Going by the Johnny/Timmy/Spike player typology, I think it appeals to Timmy.  There's a big wow factor in drawing your deck and doing lots of stuff.

I'm more of a Johnny.  My favorite thing to do is not to make an engine, but to take advantage of the most ridiculous synergy I can find on the board.

Engines appeal to all three. It's a strategy based on synergies, it's big and flashy, and it's also super competitive.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2016, 12:30:45 pm »
+15

You can't really prepare your turn while another player is doing his, let's say you have a simple Smithy, you can't play it out of turn, draw a Moat and reveal it; would be fun though.
I've always wanted to try outright-race Dominion. 
You have a friendly agreement that noone will cheat, and you all just free-for-all take your turns as fast as you can, shouting "Witch!" whenever you play a curser and yelling "BINGO!" when the Provinces run out or the game 3-piles.  Then count your points.

Obviously a stupid idea in terms of competition, but, I suspect, hilarious.  Noone will play it with me because I'm a much faster shuffler than most of my Dominion playing friends.
Has anyone tried this?

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Asper

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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2016, 01:49:17 pm »
+3

Which matters a lot more in multiplayer games (it's not exactly rare i play with 3+ other people).

Well, that doesn't mean engines aren't fun, it just means that multiplayer games aren't fun.

Multiplayer-engine games aren't fun. This doesn't mean multiplayer games aren't fun any more than it means engine games aren't fun. I would really appreciate if you could stop ridiculing other opinions than yours like this, especially when your "reasoning" holds no water.
So on a multiplayer board with a strong engine, what do you suggest doing?

What do you suggest doing if you know no one is going for the engine?
(These are two separate questions.)

You choose a kingdom. I know that's hard to imagine for those of you who only play competitive 1v1 online games to increase some rank, but some of us play games just for the fun. So, if you are five people, and everybody wants to play Dominion, pick a kingdom that doesn't favour a strategy leading to very long turns to make sure everyone can actually have fun. I guess you could split up into two groups, but sometimes people want to stay together. I don't say it's the only or best way, but i also don't see why one shouldn't be allowed to play a game the way one thinks to be the most fun. It's not like i won't be able to play any engine ever only because i occasionally play a specifically chosen multiplayer kingdom.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 01:50:23 pm by Asper »
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2016, 04:28:42 pm »
+3

I think engines are okay, but they tend to make turns longer. Which matters a lot more in multiplayer games (it's not exactly rare i play with 3+ other people). I enjoy the relatively short turns on non-engine boards, allthough i know playing a successful engine is fun. It just doesn't make up for the time it takes, especially if other players do it.

Personally, I'm far more likely to play an engine on a given board if I'm playing online than if I'm playing IRL.

Sometimes, with the physical cards in front of me, I have to balance my desire to win by relentlessly persuing Scrying Pool or Hunting Party or something, with my desire to still have the will to live twenty minutes later.

That's one of the great things about Online play, I'd say.  Engines are still long winded, but no shuffling required, and cards like the above (And Storeroom!  Oh god, Storeroom!) are actually more feasible to play.
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Re: Why are engines fun?
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2016, 05:12:34 pm »
+1

Every strategy is fun, and almost every Kingdom is fun.  That being said, here are reasons why engines are generally more fun:
  • More decisions to make (opposed to just playing your 1 Embassy each turn)
  • Opponents having different strategies (opposed to Embassy-BM mirror). Or alternatively, opponents have different routes/tactics for reaching the (potentially) same desired deck.
  • Playing more (chainable) attack cards per turn
  • Your turn is longer, and who doesn't like more me-time??
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