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Author Topic: KC is far more skippable than people think.  (Read 92050 times)

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AdamH

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #250 on: January 07, 2016, 08:25:31 am »
+2

Yes, of course. The other guy has said/done one thing wrong, therefore everything I have ever said or will say is 100% guaranteed correct and I can do no wrong!

I'm not defending Goon Garden here (I actually never have), but I believe if non-goon-garden-people had acted better, it didn't have to end like this. If this thread gets locked and whatever happens to goon garden happens, I'm quite sure that most people will say that the way we treated him was OK and justifiable because he was a troll or because he was wrong about something at some point or he said something not nice.

Even if these things are true, that does not excuse the way he was treated in this thread.
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Haddock

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #251 on: January 07, 2016, 08:38:01 am »
+2

Adam, I think nearly everyone who has said anything that Goon Garden took as an attack has apologised, whether or not they intended an attack.
Meanwhile Goon Garden has flagrantly ignored at least one of these apology posts
(see this:
)

and made some incredibly offensive and inflammatory comments.  I don't think a thread-lock or a banning is called for here; things have gotten out of hand only slowly. 

But it's fairly clear to me that none of the f.ds regulars came here with the intent to cause offense.  The recent posts of GOON GARDEN, however, are completely inexcusable and clearly aimed to hurt and offend. 
I don't want to make the assumption that GOON GARDEN is just a troll.  If he is then eventually this thread will probably be locked and GOON GARDEN banned.  If he is not just a troll, I think several members of the community here have the right to expect a PM'd apology from GOON GARDEN at the very least.
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faust

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #252 on: January 07, 2016, 08:38:57 am »
+2

Yes, of course. The other guy has said/done one thing wrong, therefore everything I have ever said or will say is 100% guaranteed correct and I can do no wrong!

I'm not sure whom you are accusing of having that attitude.
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Witherweaver

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #253 on: January 07, 2016, 08:55:56 am »
+5

Wow just checked out your youtube channel.. Please tell me that's not your real voice.

Assuming you're talking about the Hibikase cover, that's Harmor resynthesis layered with a vocoded supersaw.

I am talking about your voice on your dominion channel..

whatever tho, I feel bad for making fun of u now

Right, that was a thing too. Yes, that was my real voice. I don't think it sounds like a frog though. I'm also surprised you found it.

Well it certainly doesn't sound like a serial killer.  We know that much.
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theory

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #254 on: January 07, 2016, 09:03:20 am »
+5

I apologize for missing this - this should have been taken care of a long time ago.  Please err on over-reporting than under-reporting - it helps me keep track of what is going on.
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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #255 on: January 07, 2016, 09:04:19 am »
0

Even if these things are true, that does not excuse the way he was treated in this thread.

He was treated exactly the same as everyone else, the only difference was how he responded to it.
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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #256 on: January 07, 2016, 09:35:21 am »
0

Goon Garden is gone, yet the thread continues. Is there no end??!!
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AdamH

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #257 on: January 07, 2016, 09:38:07 am »
0

Yes, of course. The other guy has said/done one thing wrong, therefore everything I have ever said or will say is 100% guaranteed correct and I can do no wrong!

I'm not sure whom you are accusing of having that attitude.

Among many others...

Even if these things are true, that does not excuse the way he was treated in this thread.

He was treated exactly the same as everyone else, the only difference was how he responded to it.

(btw, the entire point I'm making is that the way we treat everyone should be better) Why is everyone trying so hard to refuse to look critically at the community's behavior here?

Adam, I think nearly everyone who has said anything that Goon Garden took as an attack has apologised, whether or not they intended an attack.

There are five posts in this thread made by three different people. The content of these posts was short, and the entire content of these posts was just to do something that Goon garden specifically asked not to happen. Under no circumstances do I think these posts were appropriate -- they were before Goon Garden said anything that was more offensive than being imprecise about numbers, but after reply 63 when he first complained about the way he was being treated. Personally I don't like that it even got to that point, but the fact that we can't respect the wishes of someone when the ask for that to stop is another level of unpleasantness. I can see how continuing after that point could even be seen as a personal attack.

I can press the report button on those posts, I guess; but I've already stated several times that I don't want to put myself in the middle of this by doing so -- I don't want it publicly known that I don't like the content of these peoples' posts. None of those three people have apologized, and I can't imagine any motives they had for posting what they did other than getting upvotes, and irritating goon garden. People keep denying that this is the case, but just denying that it exists doesn't make it go away.

Meanwhile Goon Garden has flagrantly ignored at least one of these apology posts
(see this:
)

and made some incredibly offensive and inflammatory comments.  I don't think a thread-lock or a banning is called for here; things have gotten out of hand only slowly. 

But it's fairly clear to me that none of the f.ds regulars came here with the intent to cause offense.  The recent posts of GOON GARDEN, however, are completely inexcusable and clearly aimed to hurt and offend. 
I don't want to make the assumption that GOON GARDEN is just a troll.  If he is then eventually this thread will probably be locked and GOON GARDEN banned.  If he is not just a troll, I think several members of the community here have the right to expect a PM'd apology from GOON GARDEN at the very least.

Great, I don't disagree with any of this. OTOH, none of this justifies anything we've said to him that was over the line, and none of this is a reason why we shouldn't look critically at how we treat people around here. Why do we only want people around here to be able to post if they can handle being made fun of and having so much off-topic stuff in their threads?
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Haddock

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #258 on: January 07, 2016, 09:47:33 am »
+1


Great, I don't disagree with any of this. OTOH, none of this justifies anything we've said to him that was over the line, and none of this is a reason why we shouldn't look critically at how we treat people around here. Why do we only want people around here to be able to post if they can handle being made fun of and having so much off-topic stuff in their threads?
I think I agree that we need to look critically at how we treat people. But I think that maybe that is best done by individual people looking at themselves rather than washing our dirty laundry in public. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
In any case, while there are always going to be people going too far and the odd person on this forum who pushes the line, I still think that overall this is one of the better Internet communities of its kind.

We can always work to make it better, I agree.  But the way you talk sometimes makes me think that you think this community is completely awful and full of horrible people. I'm fairly certain that what you actually mean is that we can always work to improve and be friendlier. But your posts sometimes (not always just sometimes) come across as trying to paint the community as an awful place.  It's hard not to respond to that emotively and defensively.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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Chris is me

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #259 on: January 07, 2016, 10:01:21 am »
+3

Behavior of everyone else in the community aside for a minute, am I the only person who thought GOON GARDEN came across as an arrogant asshole from the first several posts? It wasn't as blatant as it ended up being by page 5 or whatever, but even the OP was coming across as some dude insisting he knows far better than everyone else. People responded to his sweeping generalizations, perhaps a bit harshly I guess, and it went downhill from there. I had some sympathy for GOON GARDEN initially as perhaps he just spoke more authoritatively than he meant to, but he continued to grow more hostile. The first ten replies to this thread seemed perfectly productive, but even in the face of reasonable arguments presented politely he continued to host about how wrong elite players were about this card and how enlightened he was by his Gold strategy.

My point here isn't to avoid looking at ourselves and to improve, but like, this wasn't exactly a model post by a new user, or even a particulately good poster at all. If we weren't sufficiently unwelcoming to a ~12 year old kid with a pathological obsession with the worst card in Dominion, maybe we're not THAT unwelcoming to most people?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 10:04:23 am by Chris is me »
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kn1tt3r

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #260 on: January 07, 2016, 10:02:53 am »
+10

Even if these things are true, that does not excuse the way he was treated in this thread.

He was treated exactly the same as everyone else, the only difference was how he responded to it.

As someone who is also mostly lurking and only posting occasionally (i.e. I'm somewhat more of an 'outsider' than most in this forum), I feel I should say something on this whole issue.

First, about this forum in general: I think this is a very open and 'liberal' forum with lots of intelligent posts and a very calm and polite tone. Especially considering the very light moderating, which I really enjoy here. From my experience most other forums are either more rigidly moderated or WAY more offensive and unpleasant in terms of manners. As for the content, I feel things get a bit overanalyzed sometimes, but hey, many poeple love to overanalyze and it's a forum. And of course there are casual to silly threads, and OF COURSE there are casual to silly statements in serious threads, but that's all balanced quite well I think. Sure, the call for more seriousness in serious threads is understandable, but a really clean forum would require a very rigid moderating, which would (at least for me) destroy much of what I like about this forum.

Ok, on to this very thread: First, as a mostly-lurker I don't feel repelled by this thread at all. Why should I? What happened here is that someone didn't react well to the - admittedly slightly boorish (is that a word?) - responses of the other users. Maybe the OP is a bit sentimental, maybe he has some personal issues currently, maybe he just doesn't react well to criticism, maybe he's just young. Who knows. And sure, maybe some of the comments by some users were a bit off, but that's the internet. People WILL respond to what you write, and sometimes you won't like it. This forum here is a rather nonchalant environment (in a positive way) - not overly so, but still. If you enter such an environment, you have to live with some nonchalant comments. I don't enter a biker bar and expect to be treated as if it were a posh restaurant. This might be exaggerated, but in essence I think it's true.
On the other hand, if after some dozen postings it is quite clear that the OP is offended or hurt by any of the comments (justified or not), I would just advice to let it go and not repeat the same loop of comment-response-react over and over again.

But as I said, I generally feel that this forum has a very good balance of 'being cool' about stuff while not being offensive. So yeah, in the end I myself probably wrote a posting about an issue I don't really think is worth discussing in great length. But now that it is written anyway, I can just post it as well.

EDIT: Btw, I don't think at all the OP is trolling or whatever. I just think he doesn't react well to criticism, for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 10:04:33 am by kn1tt3r »
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theright555J

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #261 on: January 07, 2016, 10:06:06 am »
+6

Why do we only want people around here to be able to post if they can handle being made fun of and having so much off-topic stuff in their threads?

Well, Dominion is a game, and the point is to have fun, and f.ds is a lot of fun, so I guess in the end it's about having fun! Also ironic that the company carrying online Dominion is called "Making Fun"...

But there is a huge difference between belittling mockery and good-natured banter.  To some degree this is in the eye of the beholder.  That's why during sexual harassment education (mandatory for my workplace), it's only harassment if it continues after the person has requested the behavior to stop.

Now that actually DID go on in this thread!!  And I think most of us can tell that GOON GARDEN pretty much asked for it with his tone.  But is that trolling?  I take trolling to mean that the whole goal of posting is just to stir the pot and get your jollies getting a bunch of replies when your feelings were never hurt in the first place.

More likely, I think GOON GARDEN actually thought he played a board particularly well, and has a pattern of using BM-style strategies to overcome King's Court, and so concluded that maybe the community overvalues KC.  However, instead of presenting it in an inquisitory, hypothesis-generating fashion, came across like he was hot stuff and everyone should lavish him with praise.  Not unlike how the infamous ErrinF came across with Dominion: Gunpowder!

I argue that people who are full of themselves, want praise from a community of experts,  have an arrogant attitude BUT clearly have no insight as to how their behavior comes across, are in a very dangerous situation.  They need to be carefully redirected until they themselves see the error of their ways.  Many would argue that sarcasm and even outright put-down is the quickest and best way to that endpoint, and if the person doesn't "get it" and just digs their heels in, well eff them, the rest of us will get a good laugh out of it.  I argue (I think in agreement with AdamH?) that a kind approach is better until the person defines themself as truly ill-willed.

In retrospect, GOON GARDEN probably really is ill-willed at heart, but having been in his shoes in other arenas IRL, when blind to how stupidly arrogant you are vis-a-vis the community at whole, all sarcastic responses do is cause you to put up an emotional wall and escalate the situation.  Much better is to put the unwritten rules right out there and then maybe a warning if violated beyond that.

And my apologies, this probably should be in General Discussion because it is also off topic related to King's Court. So as an on-topic finisher, I had a game yesterday with a potential engine and looked at and said to myself "self, then engine is too finicky and involves too many Rats, so maybe a modified BM is just better"...and won!!  So thanks GOON GARDEN and f.ds for improving my play one game at a time  ;D
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Witherweaver

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #262 on: January 07, 2016, 10:09:10 am »
0

Behavior of everyone else in the community aside for a minute, am I the only person who thought GOON GARDEN came across as an arrogant asshole from the first several posts? It wasn't as blatant as it ended up being by page 5 or whatever, but even the OP was coming across as some dude insisting he knows far better than everyone else. People responded to his sweeping generalizations, perhaps a bit harshly I guess, and it went downhill from there. I had some sympathy for GOON GARDEN initially as perhaps he just spoke more authoritatively than he meant to, but he continued to grow more hostile. The first ten replies to this thread seemed perfectly productive, but even in the face of reasonable arguments presented politely he continued to host about how wrong elite players were about this card and how enlightened he was by his Gold strategy.

My point here isn't to avoid looking at ourselves and to improve, but like, this wasn't exactly a model post by a new user, or even a particulately good poster at all. If we weren't sufficiently unwelcoming to a ~12 year old kid with a pathological obsession with the worst card in Dominion, maybe we're not THAT unwelcoming to most people?

I thought his first post was fine. 
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Infthitbox

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #263 on: January 07, 2016, 10:09:51 am »
+1

That's why during sexual harassment education (mandatory for my workplace), it's only harassment if it continues after the person has requested the behavior to stop.

At the risk of making possibly the most off-topic post in this thread, really?!
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spiralstaircase

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #264 on: January 07, 2016, 10:10:18 am »
+3

Quote
Behavior of everyone else in the community aside for a minute, am I the only person who thought GOON GARDEN came across as an arrogant asshole from like his very first post?

You were not.

In the early 00s, I was a member of another forum.  After a few years, a new user appeared whose MO was to say something slightly ill-thought-through, then when people disagreed he would scream that he was being attacked, all the while launching personal attacks at the people who had disagreed with him.  He would accuse them of making him ill with their "attacks" and report them to the moderator - who unfortunately was completely taken in.  It got worse and worse until the people who still dared to contradict his nonsense started to be blocked, one at a time.  I left before he came for me, but I recently had a look back at the forum.  Not long afterwards, when the only allowable topic of conversation was how great this guy and his dumb opinions were, the forum was basically a ghost town.

GG and his attitude were very, very familiar.
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Awaclus

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #265 on: January 07, 2016, 10:14:29 am »
0

For the record, I'm pretty sure he didn't actually find my Dominion YouTube channel. If you want to find it, you pretty much have to know that it exists, it's not linked anywhere on this forum, and he didn't show up in the real-time Analytics thing on my channel right after he posted that post.

It's also a funny coincidence how he suddenly became sorry for insulting me right after I told him how the vocal sound design was done.  ::)
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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #266 on: January 07, 2016, 10:22:34 am »
0

Now that actually DID go on in this thread!!  And I think most of us can tell that GOON GARDEN pretty much asked for it with his tone.  But is that trolling?  I take trolling to mean that the whole goal of posting is just to stir the pot and get your jollies getting a bunch of replies when your feelings were never hurt in the first place.

I think trolling is being intentionally inflammatory, where you know people will be upset and start an argument or escalate the existing one. 

Just look at how many times he tried to bait people (me, Awaclus, Donald, etc.). 
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ipofanes

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #267 on: January 07, 2016, 10:28:24 am »
0

That's why during sexual harassment education (mandatory for my workplace), it's only harassment if it continues after the person has requested the behavior to stop.

At the risk of making possibly the most off-topic post in this thread, really?!

Sounds fair enough to me, as the perceived victim knows that asking to stop will be effective, and should in most cases evoke a direct apology.
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Awaclus

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #268 on: January 07, 2016, 10:35:06 am »
0

Trolling is pretending to be stupid or inflammatory. It's successful trolling when people believe you actually are that stupid or inflammatory.
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AdamH

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #269 on: January 07, 2016, 10:37:52 am »
0


Great, I don't disagree with any of this. OTOH, none of this justifies anything we've said to him that was over the line, and none of this is a reason why we shouldn't look critically at how we treat people around here. Why do we only want people around here to be able to post if they can handle being made fun of and having so much off-topic stuff in their threads?
I think I agree that we need to look critically at how we treat people. But I think that maybe that is best done by individual people looking at themselves rather than washing our dirty laundry in public. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
In any case, while there are always going to be people going too far and the odd person on this forum who pushes the line, I still think that overall this is one of the better Internet communities of its kind.

We can always work to make it better, I agree.  But the way you talk sometimes makes me think that you think this community is completely awful and full of horrible people. I'm fairly certain that what you actually mean is that we can always work to improve and be friendlier. But your posts sometimes (not always just sometimes) come across as trying to paint the community as an awful place.  It's hard not to respond to that emotively and defensively.

Umm, there are threads in the Feedback board where you can see my frustrations with that. It was shown that my opinion was in the minority and people don't want any form of moderation on any discussion that occurs at F.DS, and while I don't agree with the conclusion or like any of the reasons, that doesn't seem to matter.

I think this is probably the context you're looking for? The point I wanted to make at one point was that moderated discussion would have fixed/prevented this but that's not really relevant to or supported by what this thread turned into. Saying that this whole thing wouldn't have happened if we didn't have the issues we have with off-topic discussion that we have, while I think is a true thing to say, will just fall on deaf ears because it is the consensus that we like our off-topic discussion too much or something. I dunno. Nobody cares about fixing that, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

Or is this about the fact that I'm saying "community" when I'm really just referring to three people who made five posts because I don't want to refer to them by name?

the community as a whole (I guess you could say "everyone else" but that's a slight oversimplification. I will make this slight oversimplification). After reading through the thread again, I saw the same 5+ posts that I was thinking of before that I will continue to not point out.

Is it my lazy terminology on this that is causing confusion?
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Haddock

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #270 on: January 07, 2016, 10:42:28 am »
+2

Possibly it's that, Adam, but I didn't really dissect your posts.
I dunno  man, it was just how your post felt more than anything.  Like it felt like you were accusing everyone. Maybe that sentence did it.

I don't want this to turn in to a massive argument between you and me now.  For the most part I agree with you.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Witherweaver

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #271 on: January 07, 2016, 10:42:45 am »
0

I get the sense that you're talking about me, and I'm just going to say that I disagree.  I don't think I was in any way inappropriate or out of line here.  I don't think you agree, and I don't think I'll make you agree, and I don't think you'll make me agree with you.

Not trying to fight you or belittle your opinion; I just don't agree with it.

(Or I could be operating under incorrect assumptions.)
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AdamH

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #272 on: January 07, 2016, 10:47:49 am »
+1

Possibly it's that, Adam, but I didn't really dissect your posts.
I dunno  man, it was just how your post felt more than anything.  Like it felt like you were accusing everyone. Maybe that sentence did it.

I don't want this to turn in to a massive argument between you and me now.  For the most part I agree with you.

OK, no problems, I wasn't trying to be argumentative with you. It seemed you just didn't understand what I was trying to say and I was trying to clarify, especially if it was because I was saying something unclearly and being misinterpreted.

<3
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Haddock

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #273 on: January 07, 2016, 10:48:48 am »
+1

Possibly it's that, Adam, but I didn't really dissect your posts.
I dunno  man, it was just how your post felt more than anything.  Like it felt like you were accusing everyone. Maybe that sentence did it.

I don't want this to turn in to a massive argument between you and me now.  For the most part I agree with you.

OK, no problems, I wasn't trying to be argumentative with you. It seemed you just didn't understand what I was trying to say and I was trying to clarify, especially if it was because I was saying something unclearly and being misinterpreted.

<3
(Y)
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Awaclus

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Re: KC is far more skippable than people think.
« Reply #274 on: January 07, 2016, 11:01:25 am »
+3

I think this is probably the context you're looking for? The point I wanted to make at one point was that moderated discussion would have fixed/prevented this but that's not really relevant to or supported by what this thread turned into. Saying that this whole thing wouldn't have happened if we didn't have the issues we have with off-topic discussion that we have, while I think is a true thing to say, will just fall on deaf ears because it is the consensus that we like our off-topic discussion too much or something. I dunno. Nobody cares about fixing that, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

Moderated discussion would not have fixed/prevented whatever issues GG has in his personal life or changed the fact that he's the type of person who allows himself to have a shitty character by virtue of all the suffering other people have inflicted upon him because nothing is ever his fault so there's no need for him to improve himself or become a stronger person. The witty remarks were what brought that to light now, but from the moment he joined the forums, it was inevitable it would happen sooner or later.
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