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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2015, 07:10:44 pm »
+1

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.
I really like your idea.
I like this as well, except that I fear the effect would just render this a simple curse in games with another curser, once the Curse pile is depleted. It might warrant this change nonetheless if I bumped the VP penalty to -2 on this card.

How about "When you trash this, gain a Curse from the trash. If you didn't gain a Curse, put this in your discard pile"? This way you can only trash an Excommunication without penalty if there are Cursers but the trashing is weak (or non-existent), in which case your deck would already be full of junk and it would be quite harsh to junk you even further.

Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.
Yeah, you did misread that. It's a Smithy that sometimes gives you VP. And I think I will remove the on-buy effect of this.

I think a Smithy that sometimes gives you +1VP is too weak for $5. After all, each time you get +1VP at least one of the cards you drew is a dead card. So I would bump it up to 2VP. Because, you know, $5-cards are supposed to be significantly better than $4-cards and all that.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2015, 08:14:33 pm »
0

Inre excommunication: something like that sounds good.
For crusade, the alt version I posted once had one +VP per differently named victory card. Another option.
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Thanar

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2015, 11:22:39 pm »
0

Interesting set of cards. Instead of critiquing the content, I thought I'd focus on typos and wording.

1) Typo corrections:

Village Priest – Change “a Archbishop” to “an Archbishop”
Templar – Change “5 Victory card” to “5 Victory cards
Corvée – Change “6/7/8 Cards” to “6/7/8 cards”
Penance – Change “Trash this from in play” to “Trash this from play”
Iconographer – Change “2 Treasures cards” to “2 Treasure cards”
Charity – In the text under the line, remove the extra space between “costing” and “up”

2) Improved wording to match official cards:

Iconographer – Change “If not trash” to “If you don’t, trash”
Missal – Change “you may draw an extra card for your next hand” to “you may draw an extra card in this turn’s Clean-up phase”
Charity – Change “If this is the first Charity you played this turn” to “If this is the first time you played a Charity this turn”
Confession – Change “If not” to “If you don’t”
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Marcory

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2015, 12:11:53 am »
0

OK, first a few responses, then to the rest of the cards:

Templar: As written, 'you may discard this' implies from your hand; it should specify 'discard this from your Tavern Mat' or 'from your hand or reserve mat' for clarity's sake.

Cloister: Point taken. But there's still an opportunity cost. First you're buying a Duchy's worth of points over Gold or a $5 card; then, once you have the Cloister in hand, you have to either buy a VP Card, or have Cloister continue to clog your deck. If I'm going to spend $6 on a Duchy anyway, fine; but I'm not sure this is as versatile as, say, Farmland, which helps you when you're already greening. But sure, it's an interesting idea, and I look forward to the results of testing it.

Crusade: Mea Culpa; that's what I get for posting at midnight. :)

Holy See: This does have its niche uses, but is mostly valuable when 1) you only have $6 or $7 late, and feel that the extra point from Duchy won't swing the game; 2) Your deck is Treasure-Based, rather than Engine-based (because Engines wouldn't want Treasures clogging up their next hand. So again, a niche card--not necessarily a bad one, but still one with limited overall value except perhaps in a Holy Order-only Kingdom.

Iconoclast: I'll trust the forum's judgment, then.

Penance: I think I probably misread this card. But in any case, would it be better as something along the lines of 'Gain a Copper; if you do, + [3?] Cards'? This would make it a niche card like Beggar that has some useful combos. It would retain the self-penalizing aspect, and you could keep the on-trash bonus if you want.

On to the other cards:

Reliquary: Seems weak; maybe a little better than Trade Route, but it scales well with multiplayer and may be a decent counter to the likes of Cultist.

Black Mass: Superficially similar to Quest. Only problem is that it's completely useless in games without Cursing attacks. Maybe you could have it discard a Curse or Victory card costing $3 or more (so that it doesn't trash Estates or Overgrown Estate)? But I like the concept.

Indulgence: I think this would be weak even if its ability weren't a one-shot. Sure, in some games you'll want one of these for the cantrip +Buy, but it's only better than Market Square in games that have both Cursing and no Trashing. Maybe you could instead have it read, 'You may trash this and another card from your hand; if you do, +2 VP' for a similar but more versatile  effect.

Iconographer I like it, but the text could be improved to
+1 VP
Choose one: Trash two Treasures from your hand; or trash this and gain a silver

Holy Vestment  If I have 3 Holy Vestments on my Tavern mat and decide to call all of them at the start of my turn, do I draw 6 or 9 cards? (If I have to resolve them sequentially, I get 3 from the 1st HV, 2 from the 2nd, 1 from the 3rd; if they resolve simultaneously, then they each draw 3 cards). I don't know of a good reading to distinguish the two possibilities.

Funeral: As a rule, Dominion cards either give +Coin or +Cards but not both at the same time. I think this card would be better off giving +Coin only; there are precedents for one-shot coin producers (Spoils, Death Cart, Pillage), but not one-shots that give +Cards, except for Madman, which is intentionally overpowered. (I suspect that this means that one-shot that gives +Cards has already been tested and found wanting).  Also, you might want to have it cost $3, because Dark Ages introduced a division between 'good trash' that costs $3 or more, and 'Bad Trash' that costs $2 or less.

Pardon and Missal I agree with Library Adventurer

Collection Plate Wouldn't it be better to just deal out Coppers, because 1) a single Charity is not all that bad, as LA said, and 2) Charity seems to weak to use up a card slot, even if it's not in the Supply.

Confession Donald X has already said that he's tried a discarding Lab for $4 and it didn't work (see the Secret History of Adventures, or the Fugitive page on the wiki)

Excommunication--thematically, it would be great if this could only be trashed by a Chapel, Bishop, or other church-type card, but I realize that's not possible to work; otherwise, would it be better to make this 'When you trash this, gain two Coppers'? That way, you could still trash it, but it would be painful.

Overall, you have a good set of ideas, though, with some interesting cards already and some more that have promise.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 12:20:54 am by Marcory »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2015, 07:32:08 am »
0

Holy Vestment's lower part should be worded "Once per turn, at the start of your turn, you may call this, to draw a card per Holy Vestment on your Tavern mat." This way it's in line with other Reserve cards and also clearer how many cards you draw.
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2015, 08:18:15 am »
0

Thanks for the typo corrections, Thanar. Note on the wording for Missal: that phrasing comes from Expedition, actually. So there's some variation in the phrasing for this sort of effect it seems.

Thanks again for the detailed commentary, Marcory. My notes follow:
Templar: As written, 'you may discard this' implies from your hand; it should specify 'discard this from your Tavern Mat' or 'from your hand or reserve mat' for clarity's sake.
Noted, will add the wording to clarify!

Quote
Penance: I think I probably misread this card. But in any case, would it be better as something along the lines of 'Gain a Copper; if you do, + [3?] Cards'? This would make it a niche card like Beggar that has some useful combos. It would retain the self-penalizing aspect, and you could keep the on-trash bonus if you want.
I like this. A lot. I think that can be implemented without it needing a line break, but if I can't I'll need to retool the wording overall to implement it.

Quote
Reliquary: Seems weak; maybe a little better than Trade Route, but it scales well with multiplayer and may be a decent counter to the likes of Cultist.
This was built on comparison with Forager rather than Trade Route, actually. I initially wanted to make it dependent on differently named Action cards in the trash, but thought that could get crazy. Then I thought +$1 for every 2 differently named Actions in the trash, but then it gets a little hard to start up. So then I thought of attaching it to Ruins. I wonder if setting it to play off Actions more generally would be worth a revisit.

Quote
Black Mass: Superficially similar to Quest. Only problem is that it's completely useless in games without Cursing attacks. Maybe you could have it discard a Curse or Victory card costing $3 or more (so that it doesn't trash Estates or Overgrown Estate)? But I like the concept.
I wouldn't say useless, though obviously its value is more marginal in games without cursers. In games where it is present, all players will start with 1 curse in their deck anyway. And if there's decent trashing and you have a spare buy, you might grab another curse to speed up the Gold gain. We'll see upon testing.

Quote
Indulgence: I think this would be weak even if its ability weren't a one-shot. Sure, in some games you'll want one of these for the cantrip +Buy, but it's only better than Market Square in games that have both Cursing and no Trashing. Maybe you could instead have it read, 'You may trash this and another card from your hand; if you do, +2 VP' for a similar but more versatile  effect.
As is, it's done pretty well in test games at netting some decent VP in kingdoms with and without cursing, especially when one player goes at it uncontested.

Quote
Iconographer I like it, but the text could be improved to
+1 VP
Choose one: Trash two Treasures from your hand; or trash this and gain a silver
This turns it into a choice, though, which I didn't intend. If you play it and can't succeed in trashing two Treasures, I want you to have to trash it and gain a silver. As a choice, you can always just choose "Trash two Treasures" regardless of whether there are Treasures in hand to trash, and keep the +VP gainer.

Quote
Holy Vestment  If I have 3 Holy Vestments on my Tavern mat and decide to call all of them at the start of my turn, do I draw 6 or 9 cards? (If I have to resolve them sequentially, I get 3 from the 1st HV, 2 from the 2nd, 1 from the 3rd; if they resolve simultaneously, then they each draw 3 cards). I don't know of a good reading to distinguish the two possibilities.
The once per turn is supposed to indicate that you may only call on Holy Vestment once per turn. Perhaps a wording shift from "you may call this" to "you may call a Holy Vestment" would clarify this (though the FAQ will anyway). So the math is unnecessary in that case. I have 6 HVs on the mat, at the start of my turn I call one, and draw 5 cards. I cannot call another HV.

Quote
Funeral: As a rule, Dominion cards either give +Coin or +Cards but not both at the same time. I think this card would be better off giving +Coin only; there are precedents for one-shot coin producers (Spoils, Death Cart, Pillage), but not one-shots that give +Cards, except for Madman, which is intentionally overpowered. (I suspect that this means that one-shot that gives +Cards has already been tested and found wanting).  Also, you might want to have it cost $3, because Dark Ages introduced a division between 'good trash' that costs $3 or more, and 'Bad Trash' that costs $2 or less.
Funeral has seen considerable reworking from the original post, so much of it in this form hasn't been extensively tested yet. The combination of +Card/+Coin for the most powered-up version was mostly out of a desire to do something other than straight card draw for that stage. I don't quite get your initial statement, though. This is effectively what City does at its most powered up. The pricing point is goo to note, though. But I'm not sure its non-one-shot utility is worth bumping it to $3, since--as noted above--the above-the-line text is strictly worse than Squire.

Quote
Collection Plate Wouldn't it be better to just deal out Coppers, because 1) a single Charity is not all that bad, as LA said, and 2) Charity seems to weak to use up a card slot, even if it's not in the Supply.
Good point. I'll probably implement this.

Quote
Confession Donald X has already said that he's tried a discarding Lab for $4 and it didn't work (see the Secret History of Adventures, or the Fugitive page on the wiki)
Yeah, this has been raised above (page 1?). However, this is not a supply card you can just buy, so the pricing on this is nominal only. The pricing issue doesn't necessarily work the same for it. You can only gain it by buying a Duchy, meaning each Confession is also adding a dead card to your deck.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2015, 06:29:18 pm »
0

Two Event ideas that came to me.
Excommunication [I've renamed the old Excommunication (see above) to Damnation, though still not settled on that]
Event    - $3
+1 Buy
Put this card on an Action supply pile. While this is on a supply pile, card from that pile cannot be played.

Book of Magic
Event    - $1
Move the Book of Magic token to your Tavern mat. While it is on your Tavern mat, you may play Curses during your Buy phase for $2 per Curse.
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Asper

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2016, 09:10:31 am »
0

Two Event ideas that came to me.
Excommunication [I've renamed the old Excommunication (see above) to Damnation, though still not settled on that]
Event    - $3
+1 Buy
Put this card on an Action supply pile. While this is on a supply pile, card from that pile cannot be played.

Book of Magic
Event    - $1
Move the Book of Magic token to your Tavern mat. While it is on your Tavern mat, you may play Curses during your Buy phase for $2 per Curse.


I don't like Excommunication. It's too much in-your-face and really crippling, especially with Villages, cantrips and Copper.

Copper is especially bad. If you go first, and have $5, you can buy Excommunication and Duchess, put the card on Copper and win by emptying the Estate, Duchess and Copper pile over years of agony. Also works with other openings and cards. You can fix the Copper thing by only putting it on kingdom or action cards, but honestly i think you'd be far better off with REWARDING yourself for other players playing a card. How about something like this:

Absolution, $3
Put your Absolution token on an action supply pile. When another player plays a card from that pile, take a coin token.

GeneralRamos

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2016, 11:18:20 am »
0

Two Event ideas that came to me.
Excommunication [I've renamed the old Excommunication (see above) to Damnation, though still not settled on that]
Event    - $3
+1 Buy
Put this card on an Action supply pile. While this is on a supply pile, card from that pile cannot be played.

Book of Magic
Event    - $1
Move the Book of Magic token to your Tavern mat. While it is on your Tavern mat, you may play Curses during your Buy phase for $2 per Curse.


I don't like Excommunication. It's too much in-your-face and really crippling, especially with Villages, cantrips and Copper.

Copper is especially bad. If you go first, and have $5, you can buy Excommunication and Duchess, put the card on Copper and win by emptying the Estate, Duchess and Copper pile over years of agony. Also works with other openings and cards. You can fix the Copper thing by only putting it on kingdom or action cards, but honestly i think you'd be far better off with REWARDING yourself for other players playing a card. How about something like this:

Absolution, $3
Put your Absolution token on an action supply pile. When another player plays a card from that pile, take a coin token.
Your Copper comment doesn't make any sense. You didn't read the card properly; it is already limited to "Put this on an Action supply pile."
Also note it hurts all players, so choosing a village probably means you are opting for a different strategy altogether. I imagine its effects will be more like Embargo than anything else. Its mere presence discourages a strategy that if overly reliant on any one component. But it's effect on that card does not persist to game's end.

I do, however, like the Absolution idea. Not sure about coin tokens (mostly because I don't own a physical copy of Guilds!), but might consider something like that.

Also, I have no idea how these would be properly priced.

Mock-ups.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 11:19:49 am by GeneralRamos »
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Asper

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2016, 01:04:39 pm »
0

Oops. Yes, i misread that.

Either way, obviously you don't need to buy Excommunication before somebody sets something up. You can buy it as soon as he has. There are a lot of engines that depend on one key action card to provide money and Excommunication will mean that those engines are unplayable. If you got yourself in a situation where your only source of money suddenly is dead, you can't afford Excommunication to return to normal. I assume it will push players towards just buying treasure cards, as those are unaffected.

GeneralRamos

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2016, 03:18:49 pm »
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I don't think it would push a Treasure-only strategy. But it would push a diversity-based or resilient strategy. Anyhow, on further reflection, I know you are right about it being too strong in its detrimental power. Here are some alternate versions that are less detrimental:
Version B:

Version C:


And drawing on your absolution idea, Charity (reusing name and art from the dropped Charity non-supply card above):

Price TBD?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 04:08:12 pm by GeneralRamos »
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2016, 06:00:08 pm »
+1

Another card idea that came to mind recently.

Inspired by Contraband. Instead of declaring what card you cannot buy, however, another player names an Action card and voids its abilities. This doesn't hinder another player from playing it (e.g., for the sake of variety for HoP), but it is only played as a dead card. Unlike contraband, no more than one card can be named per turn, so it can still be played multiple times for more Actions as needed without the fear of impairing the utility of +Action. Ultimately, this card discourages a strategy centered around one or two Action cards.

Aside from the Contraband effect, the first one played on a turn is essentially a Lost City. The draw power of subsequent ones depends of course on what Action cards are played in conjunction. This should maybe cost $5.
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tristan

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2016, 03:14:00 am »
0

Another card idea that came to mind recently.

Inspired by Contraband. Instead of declaring what card you cannot buy, however, another player names an Action card and voids its abilities. This doesn't hinder another player from playing it (e.g., for the sake of variety for HoP), but it is only played as a dead card. Unlike contraband, no more than one card can be named per turn, so it can still be played multiple times for more Actions as needed without the fear of impairing the utility of +Action. Ultimately, this card discourages a strategy centered around one or two Action cards.

Aside from the Contraband effect, the first one played on a turn is essentially a Lost City. The draw power of subsequent ones depends of course on what Action cards are played in conjunction. This should maybe cost $5.
This is a nice variation of Production Village. I'd test is with "if this is the first Monastery you played" as well as without that restriction.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2016, 05:53:22 pm »
0

I like the general idea of Monastery but the bottom effect is very, very bad for the player who plays Monastery, even worse than Contraband, I think. So the card should probably be even stronger. Also, there should be no dividing line. Currently, the moment you play your first Monastery, the other player can name Monastery and it immediately has no effect because the naming trigger comes in order before you resolve the Monastery. To prevent this, omit the dividing line so that another player naming a card is actually part of resolving the action (it should be anyway).
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2016, 11:55:09 pm »
0

Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2016, 11:03:11 am »
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Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.
I have updated the OP, with a few notes. I can provide high-res images for anyone who want to print them out, and the TS template for anyone who wants to play with these cards (without me). Just PM me
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2016, 02:41:20 pm »
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Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.
I have updated the OP, with a few notes. I can provide high-res images for anyone who want to print them out, and the TS template for anyone who wants to play with these cards (without me). Just PM me

Heretic and Blackmail still refer to Excommunication even though you renamed Excommunication to Damnation.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2016, 04:23:14 pm »
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Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.
I have updated the OP, with a few notes. I can provide high-res images for anyone who want to print them out, and the TS template for anyone who wants to play with these cards (without me). Just PM me

Heretic and Blackmail still refer to Excommunication even though you renamed Excommunication to Damnation.
Thanks. I did fix that but loaded an old image. I'll try to update it later.
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2018, 06:35:25 am »
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Charity costs nothing?
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2018, 08:34:56 am »
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Charity costs nothing?

The cost was TBD. Seeing how long the thread has been dead, I doubt there will be one officially determined anytime soon.
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2018, 01:49:14 pm »
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Charity costs nothing?

The cost was TBD. Seeing how long the thread has been dead, I doubt there will be one officially determined anytime soon.

What does TBD mean?  :)
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2018, 04:49:55 pm »
+1

Charity costs nothing?

The cost was TBD. Seeing how long the thread has been dead, I doubt there will be one officially determined anytime soon.

What does TBD mean?  :)

"To be decided".
Not "To be denounced", as I used to think for some time...  ;D

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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2018, 05:03:22 am »
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Thanks!
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2018, 10:43:03 am »
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A lot of these cards seem niche and not very strong to me, and some cards just seem pretty darn good.

For example, I think I could consider going for a pure Deacon strategy. Like what's stopping me? I can gain VP forever, I can trash stuff, and I get to slow down my opponent too? Seems pretty busted, although I would want to play with it first to be sure.

Sinner's lines seem so needlessly complex, and honestly I would split it into two different cards for simplicity. Nun is stupid strong but having to buy a Province to get Nun when there's no alt-VP on the board seems like an exercise in futility. On the other hand, Heretic seems pretty bad.

Tithe is more interesting than on first glance, since it has sort of the opposite of the Raider effect, but if you ever have a Copper in play you're never afraid to play it.

Cloister seems rather high of a price point and I get it's like an eventually better than Duchy deal but I am prepared to say this card is mostly bad.

Holy See is something I would never buy except maybe in some end of shuffle niche case with a money board, in which case it is busted since it both scores and lets you province next turn.

I am not about to get Confessions by buying Duchies prematurely, so really Inquisition is a stupid strong Curser.

Blackmail is weird because it is so slow, I will basically never use the gain Treasure function except in a slog, and the attack only hits once every two shuffles so really this card is bad.

Crusade is really really really good.

Corvee is weird and weakish the longer the game goes on. Yeah, it has that duration function but they're essentially delayed draw and usually just worse than a Haunted Woods?

Scary pins are possible with Templar, but it will mostly not do much and with the guaranteed shuffle missing it's weak, although the plus buy tacked onto it forces people to play with it. I dunno, it's an interesting enough card but I can see it being really oppressive even with the "nerf". I mean think about this. Assume mega engine, you're happy to trigger the shuffle, and then boom all your templars are back. It's a scary oppressive card and I think I would ax it.

Synod is a busted Village. It can trigger some annoying shuffles but that's worth the damn consistency. You'll just never dud with this thing.

Yeah, still going to drive the Wedding pile into the ground despite the Lost City nerf.

I don't get Collection Plate. It seems really really bad.

Iconoclast seems like an exercise in futility, where people struggle to not get Cursed, and nothing about it seems simple or fun. Woohoo, a way to remove VP tokens, nobody is happy and it's a bad card to boot so you're not happy playing it.

Labyrinth is really niche, I would probably never buy it.

Monastery is an Action contraband, probably just as bad if not worse? Not sure on this card.

Indulgence is a weird way to score. If you get all 10 Indulgences you can tuck away 5 Curses and get 25 points, after which you start losing points. You might get it if there's Cursing on the board, but otherwise going for this alone is going to just get crushed against any normal engine? It has +buy, which will be the most important thing on it easily.

Black Mass is slow and bad. The Gold gain is sad and if the Black Mass misses the shuffle or you draw the Curse before Black Mass, tough luck. Assuming I even want to just get a Gold.

Iconographer seems really good. I would probably just open it every time I could.

Reliquary is a cute trasher and ends up being Forager but slightly worse.

Penance is cute if your engine has an extra buy, since you're just going to blow it up for points, but yeah this one doesn't excite me much at all, scoring points while trying to build is bad and keeping it around is even worse.

Sacrament is a crazy nice way to get to $6 or higher, way busted in the opening. Totally open this every time Inheritance is on the board.

Pardon is cute, I like it, mainly because it's a mostly bad Village but it cycles and stuff. Maybe the coolest card I've seen so far?

With Funeral, you play Funeral games where nobody wants to be the first guy to trash Funeral since there's no benefit. And it's a village to boot, so. Yeah, not too hot on this one, given nobody will want to blow them up ever.

Not sure what to think of Holy Vestment. It's really bad for a long time, and then if you get like 6 of them down it's fantastic, but hey, you spent tons of turns buying Copper and it's slowed your shuffles down. This card is really hard to gauge.

Widows and Orphans is busted in any decent engine.

Missal is interesting, might be cool.

Yeah, I understand Donald said the Confession type card is great but I'm not about to buy a Duchy just to have it. It's just a nice opener/Forum variant.

Damnation is an interesting card, I think I like the idea of a Super Curse.

Excommunication is going to lead to some degenerate games since it's Embargo+, and given Donald didn't make it already, it's probably incredibly oppressive. Not to say I hate the idea though, it would be interesting to try out.

Book of Spells is niche as all heck.

Charity is really really really good, you could price that sucker at $6 just to start off. Interesting idea too.
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Re: Holy Order
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2018, 08:09:15 pm »
+1

The ones of these I've used and liked are: Missal, Synod, Labyrinth, Wedding, Holy See (at $3 cost), and Cloister.

Synod is strong, but not quite as strong as Wandering Minstrel.

Cloister is great with trash for benefit.

Other cards from here that we tried out:
Black Mass: We didn't like it.
Accuser/Confession: I like my version of it, but I changed it significantly (including how to get Confessions).
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