Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Holy Order  (Read 12216 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2015, 05:58:14 am »
0

2 actions would make it worse and more expensive than Farming village.

No. Farming Village is literally just Village. Synod discards all junk cards, including Treasures (which is what the majority of your junk cards are anyway), and can easily draw more than one card.
I disagree about Treasure cards. By the time you are wealthy enough to buy Synod to get good Action cards, you have good Treasures in your deck.

And you can't draw more than one card with Synod, which should be worded "Put 1 Action card..." unless it means "Put any Action cards..."
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 06:03:45 am by beri »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10721
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11224
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2015, 07:08:53 am »
0

I disagree about Treasure cards. By the time you are wealthy enough to buy Synod to get good Action cards, you have good Treasures in your deck.

Well, you have maybe one Silver, maybe two. You don't want to draw them though.

It seems like I misread the card though, it's true that you can't draw more than one card. Still, getting the best out of three cards is incredibly good for a splitter that's what Wandering Minstrel does when you have two of them and it's a very strong $4.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2015, 07:56:21 am »
0

Quote
2 actions would make it worse and more expensive than Farming village.
I see what you're saying, but it's not strictly worse than it. It's not strictly worse to draw only an Action instead of either an Action or a Treasure. There it's just different, not worse. It's more like Wandering Minstrel and Farming Village had a sweet sweet baby. I'd argue it is almost strictly better than Wandering Minstrel, since it's basically a sifting village for Actions, but this one actually puts it in hand if you find it.

As to Reliquary, etc., being useless in games without Cursers, maybe not. At least it can be argued that curses are present in every game, so the option is always there. Their utility outside the context of cursers might just be more dependent on the shape of the rest of the board. For instance, if Goons is around, Indulgence might make it worthwhile considering buying a Curse for the +1VP, especially if I have good sifting to align my Indulgence with a curse.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2881
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3609
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2015, 09:42:18 am »
0

I think you want Black Mass to be a Reserve, not a Duration.
Logged

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2015, 09:47:36 am »
0

Funeral is too expensive. Note that without the Mining Village like self-trash bonus thingy it is worse (as it lacks the flexibility) than a Squire. As others have already noted, the self-trash thingy implies a positive externality so "too few" (than would be optimal if the game were a co-op) Funeral are trashed.

So the card would probably even be overpriced at 3$.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 09:48:39 am by tristan »
Logged

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2015, 07:22:18 pm »
0

Logged

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 08:44:39 pm »
0

Quote
I liked the previous Curse for Gold thing. Why remove it? As such, the card is plain useless. If you have a nice benefit for discarding a Curse, you don't need the part in italics.
Edit: I realize I accidentally deleted the main effect from the Black Mass mock up. It should indicate that if you discard a curse, gain a Gold.

Yeah, as stated, I realized later I accidentally removed that text. Imagine it still there. Still discards for Gold. But it also starts all players with one curse in their deck.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 08:45:41 pm by GeneralRamos »
Logged

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2015, 04:17:55 am »
0

Starting with a Curse in every player's deck adds a line in the rules and kinda forces you to trash it or buy a Black mass.
Plus it makes Black mass too strong, since it doesn't cost you a buy to grab a curse.

I would remove this setup and make black mass cost 3.

I'm also wondering whether gaining Gold is not too strong.
Logged

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2015, 05:29:16 pm »
0


A one-shot Throne-Roomed Band of Misfits acting as the same action card both times.


A sort of counterpart to Coin of the Realm. Can be called at the start of your turn to draw cards. The number of cards drawn depends on the number of Holy Vestments on the Tavern mat. You need 2 for it to be effective at all, and most of the time you won't want to start using it until you've got 3 or 4.


A simple discard for $ card. If the card drawn from it is a "dead" Action, no matter!


Another Hex. A fairly low-risk negative VP, so long as you don't have too many colliding terminals or buy it too late. As soon as you can play it, you can trash it for VP.


A Smithy that gives you some value for drawing a dead VP card. Original version had +1 VP per differently named VP, but I think that was a bit much. Not sure that it's powerful enough to warrant the on-gain qualification; I'll probably scrap that.


Collection Plate seeks out and duplicates a decent treasure card, leaving it on top of your deck. Gaining a Charity Plate gives opponents a Charity, essentially an unstackable Silver than can be exchanged for a better Treasure down the road.


I ran a test game with Templar earlier. The top half is probably a bit weak, and maybe should be +1 Action, +4 Cards. You only get to use it once every other shuffle, after all. The Attack's strength depends somewhat on the other player's deck cycle and what stage they're at. It's a good way to slow down a player deep into Greening. This can sometimes lead to a pinned hand, but not without remedy. I also had Holy See in the kingdom, and that proved a formidable counterpoint to Templar, putting a bunch of Golds and Silvers back into the mix.
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2015, 10:20:42 pm »
0


A one-shot Throne-Roomed Band of Misfits acting as the same action card both times.


A sort of counterpart to Coin of the Realm. Can be called at the start of your turn to draw cards. The number of cards drawn depends on the number of Holy Vestments on the Tavern mat. You need 2 for it to be effective at all, and most of the time you won't want to start using it until you've got 3 or 4.


A simple discard for $ card. If the card drawn from it is a "dead" Action, no matter!


Another Hex. A fairly low-risk negative VP, so long as you don't have too many colliding terminals or buy it too late. As soon as you can play it, you can trash it for VP.


A Smithy that gives you some value for drawing a dead VP card. Original version had +1 VP per differently named VP, but I think that was a bit much. Not sure that it's powerful enough to warrant the on-gain qualification; I'll probably scrap that.


Collection Plate seeks out and duplicates a decent treasure card, leaving it on top of your deck. Gaining a Charity Plate gives opponents a Charity, essentially an unstackable Silver than can be exchanged for a better Treasure down the road.


I ran a test game with Templar earlier. The top half is probably a bit weak, and maybe should be +1 Action, +4 Cards. You only get to use it once every other shuffle, after all. The Attack's strength depends somewhat on the other player's deck cycle and what stage they're at. It's a good way to slow down a player deep into Greening. This can sometimes lead to a pinned hand, but not without remedy. I also had Holy See in the kingdom, and that proved a formidable counterpoint to Templar, putting a bunch of Golds and Silvers back into the mix.

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:27:43 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2015, 10:59:17 pm »
0

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Good eye on the missing Hex and misordered +Cards/+Action. I'll fix that.

The intention of "until you trash it" was to mean that up to the minute you trash it, but not when you trash it, it is that card. But looking back to the BoM FAQ this does seem to be a problem.
Quote
Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again.

So I welcome phrasing ideas to get the proper effect.

I'll mull over the thoughts on Templar. The Shuffle-Attack thing does require some addressing.
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2015, 11:37:04 pm »
0

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Good eye on the missing Hex and misordered +Cards/+Action. I'll fix that.

The intention of "until you trash it" was to mean that up to the minute you trash it, but not when you trash it, it is that card. But looking back to the BoM FAQ this does seem to be a problem.
Quote
Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again.

So I welcome phrasing ideas to get the proper effect.

I'll mull over the thoughts on Templar. The Shuffle-Attack thing does require some addressing.

How about this:

Shrine:
Play this twice as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than this. Put this into the trash pile. This is that card until it is removed from play.
Cost: $5
Action

Putting it into the trash is not the same as trashing it, so as you intended, trashing it will not activate on-trash effects.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 11:38:08 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

schadd

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • Shuffle iT Username: schadd
  • lockjaw
  • Respect: +1242
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2015, 12:11:11 am »
+1

shrine: i think this is pretty neat, and seemingly a bit strong, it compares kinda nicely to a few other $5s; if you use it on marauder, then it replaces pillage's discard a specific card with they gain 2 ruins, which i think is a bit better but maybe not a lot, which is a good sign. monument vs. distant lands, pay 2 vp to get $4. also good but hard to tell. i think the fact that you get to choose makes it better than all of these cards, but if it's good then it's good in an interesting way.

holy vestment, batman. i think this is a really good idea, probably my favorite among these. other than that, not much to say, it seems like the engine version of fool's gold, if there isn't anything better, buy a bunch of these. i'm ok with that i think. bad in multiplayer, as is fools' gold.

sacrament: incredibly weak i would say, the card itself is maybe as good as the top half of secret chamber and it costs 1 more: you draw one card but you can only discard your action cards and not the victories or whatever, and it doesn't have much place in an engine because you aren't oriented towards your engine failing, you might as well buy another component. would be reasonable if it costed like $1 and gave you $2 for each discard, maybe.

penance: i would describe this, in turn, as super busted. ultra-busted. draw two, trash two coppers for free, where do i sign. i just have to trash it by the end of the game, which is a long time from now, and then it's two free great halls.

crusade: this is probably fine. $5 smithies seem to like being mediocre, and this one seems to follow that trend. if anything it seems to like bm a bit, because terminal draw is nice and there isn't a problem with buying victory cards earlier. the biggest problem with vp token cards conceptually is that they can discourage ending the game, and this doesn't do that at all, which is nice.

collection plate: fine, if pretty bad. i would put it a little worse than taxman, because during your turn it gains a treasure that's usually better than a silver but doesn't trash a copper (your own trashing and the opponent's discard pretty much cancel) but it lets your opponent gets to gain something pretty close to a silver. that's pretty much only relevant in bm games, or if i can get a bunch of them and upgrade them quickly while opponent guy gets stuck with a bunch of charities.

templar: i don't see a reason why two labs this shuffle and none next with a bonus (that probably means your opponent will draw about 1 less card this shuffle) isn't better than lab, especially considering that maybe two 6-card hands is less ideal than a 5 and a 7. i would be fine with it at $6 and retaining +3 cards instead of 4

good job sport. these were pretty nice overall i think
Logged
I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'
6-9
he/him
beloved my john, i'll carry on

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2015, 04:59:34 am »
0

I agree Sacrament is incredibly weak. If it drew two cards and gave $2 per discarded action card, then maybe. Allthough i guess filling up with these gets too trivial, then. By the way, i once had a similar card, and it solved the issue by having a Potion in its cost. It died for being not interesting enough.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2015, 08:38:49 am »
+1

Updated:



Logged

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2015, 09:18:12 am »
+1

Templar needs to say "each other player reveals all cards in their discard pile and shuffles..." lest there's no way for other players to trace how many Victory cards there are in other players' discard piles. Even without that phrase, this card is going to be very slow (thus annoying) to resolve.

Similarly, Sacrament needs to say "Reveal and discard any number of cards from your hand" because otherwise you could discard multiple cards at once without other players being able to see each one individually. At least I think that's how it would work.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2015, 10:53:29 am »
0

Templar needs to say "each other player reveals all cards in their discard pile and shuffles..." lest there's no way for other players to trace how many Victory cards there are in other players' discard piles. Even without that phrase, this card is going to be very slow (thus annoying) to resolve.

Similarly, Sacrament needs to say "Reveal and discard any number of cards from your hand" because otherwise you could discard multiple cards at once without other players being able to see each one individually. At least I think that's how it would work.

You are correct about both points.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2015, 10:18:20 pm »
0

Here is the current state of all the cards in the set:
Clergy Traveller line:

Sinner Traveller line:




$6+


$5


$4


$3


$2


$1


Non-supply
Logged

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 637
  • Respect: +1029
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2015, 02:50:15 am »
+1

How does Templar ever come off your reserve mat? If you intend for it to be a one-shot, wouldn't it be easier just to have it trash itself?

Your Clergy line really ought to go something along the lines of Deacon-Priest-Monsignor-Bishop-Archbishop. You don't want to have up to 5 Popes floating around, and Cardinal is a different kind of status than Bishop. (Not all Cardinals are Archbishops or even Bishops, and in the Middle Ages, some of them were even laymen.) (Plus, not all Europeans in the Dominion era were Catholic; some were Orthodox and had neither Cardinals nor a Pope).

Cloister seems overpriced; it's similar to Distant Lands but more expensive and less versatile, unless you plan to use a TFB on it.

Novice seems like an expensive version of Sage. It might be worth $3; definitely not $5, even given the arbitrariness of Traveller pricing.

The idea of Excommunication, an untrashable curse, is OK, but the name is odd, thematically. Excommunications can be and frequently are lifted, and are not the result of blackmail. Also, thematically, you ought to get an Excommunication for playing a Heretic or Blasphemer.

Nun can probably just set aside the Victory cards, like Island; it would make the card less wordy. Also, I think your 'Non-kingdom' wording is trying to account for variable-VP cards like Silk Road; setting them aside would avoid this problem, and also the problem of 'Non-Kingdom', which is not a Dominion term.

Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.

Holy See looks worth testing, at least (though probably something Diocese would be a better name, as there is only one Holy See); you'll want to see how often people buy this over Duchy.

Labyrinth is interesting; my instinct is to compare it with Tunnel and Island, other Alt-VP cards that are too weak to be strategies on their own, but are sometimes worth buying for their abilities. However, I'm not sure I'd buy a Labyrinth for its ability, if it will trigger someone else's Labyrinth. Maybe have it trigger on gaining Provinces, or on gaining Treasures?

Iconoclast seems way too powerful; it's a combination of a slightly-weaker Monument and a slightly-weaker Sea Hag.

Cursed Idol seems pretty weak; in order to use it, I have to buy what is effectively a Copper, costing myself a VP in the process, and then buy junk cards in order to curse other people.

Collection Plate is similar to Explorer; how often do you buy one of those?

Penance is similar to Distant Lands, which costs $5; is it too cheap?

I'll try to get some thoughts on the other cards in later.
















Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1104
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +849
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2015, 02:58:38 am »
0

Nice set, I think I'll print some of them out and play with them (might be a little while before I actually get around to doing it though). a few comments:

Sinner is missing some wording in the posted image. What is it supposed to say?
I agree with Marcory about Nun.

I don't think Crusade needs the drawback. It'd be good without the below the line part.
Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.
You misunderstand it. It puts all three cards in your hand, not just the victory cards.

Templar is going to be a big pain to resolve with the "Look through each others players' discard piles" part. It'd be simpler to say, "Each other player reveals their discard pile and shuffles up to five victory cards from it into their deck." Even that is going to cause too much reshuffling, and I don't think the attack needs to be up to five. I would do something like this: "Each other player reveals their discard pile and puts two (or 3) non-action victory cards from it on top of their deck."

Collection Plate seems weak, especially since a single Charity isn't really bad.

Marcory has a good point about not wanting to buy Labyrinth because it'd trigger other people's labyrinths.

I use a card almost the same as Synod, except it says "reveal the top 2" instead of 3, and it's still plenty strong for a $4 cost. So I think Synod might be too strong for $4 & too weak for $5 as is.

You nerfed Penance a little too much from it's previous version. Now it's just a Moat that gives you 2VP when you trash it instead of moat's reaction.

Does Holy Vestment count itself when counting holy vestments on the tavern mat? hard to tell.

I think Pardon is too similar to Shanty Town to be worth using. Also, I think Missal is too similar to Expedition.

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 03:07:31 am by LibraryAdventurer »
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3323
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2015, 03:07:37 am »
0

I like Cloister, it's a pretty novel idea to buy a Hovel. :)
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2015, 07:51:06 am »
0

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.

I really like your idea.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2015, 08:55:32 am »
0

How does Templar ever come off your reserve mat? If you intend for it to be a one-shot, wouldn't it be easier just to have it trash itself?
When your shuffle your deck. So not a one-shot. It only gets played once every other shuffle. But of course, an opponent with Templar ramps up the frequency of shuffling.

Your Clergy line really ought to go something along the lines of Deacon-Priest-Monsignor-Bishop-Archbishop. You don't want to have up to 5 Popes floating around, and Cardinal is a different kind of status than Bishop. (Not all Cardinals are Archbishops or even Bishops, and in the Middle Ages, some of them were even laymen.) (Plus, not all Europeans in the Dominion era were Catholic; some were Orthodox and had neither Cardinals nor a Pope).
The existence of Bishop hinders any attempt to make a stepwise or complete hierarchy of church offices. You'll note as well I've got "village priest" as such mostly as a reflection of the village-like nature of its turn two. I don't really care that there might be multiple popes floating around simultaneously (nor is it historically unprecedented). So in all, point taken, but not implemented.

Novice seems like an expensive version of Sage. It might be worth $3; definitely not $5, even given the arbitrariness of Traveller pricing.
Well, the arbitrariness of Traveller pricing makes it a moot point, more or less. But it's better compared to Golem than Sage. It is not concerned with price of cards, and only hits Actions.

Nun can probably just set aside the Victory cards, like Island; it would make the card less wordy. Also, I think your 'Non-kingdom' wording is trying to account for variable-VP cards like Silk Road; setting them aside would avoid this problem, and also the problem of 'Non-Kingdom', which is not a Dominion term.
This wording was suggested in the other thread on this Traveller line. Yes, setting aside a card could handle the other types of VP and it was suggested. I'll consider it further.

Sinner is missing some wording in the posted image. What is it supposed to say?
It's all there, actually. Changing the name to Blasphemer caused too much squeeze on the bottom line, so I needed to move the in to before the ellipses instead on before hand and play respectively. If you have a Confession in play, you may exchange Sinner for Novice; if you have Confession in hand, you may exchange Sinner for Blasphemer. If you have one in play and one in hand, you may choose which way to exchange (but still only one way or the other, as indicated by "exchange").

Cloister seems overpriced; it's similar to Distant Lands but more expensive and less versatile, unless you plan to use a TFB on it.
You might have misread this. Unlike Distant lands, this is not a risky investment. It's the opposite. You get the points when you buy it, and they're (mostly) untouchable. Cloister itself is fairly easy to get rid of thereafter, especially incentivizing buying more cloisters. Cloister is strictly better than Duchy, and not overpriced.

The idea of Excommunication, an untrashable curse, is OK, but the name is odd, thematically. Excommunications can be and frequently are lifted, and are not the result of blackmail. Also, thematically, you ought to get an Excommunication for playing a Heretic or Blasphemer.
Sure, but theme's not everything. I mean, Giant and Torturer are both cursers connected to a witch-themed card. I mostly just wanted another card using Excommunication connected to Heretic. But I would certainly consider changing Excommunication's name. It started elsewhere from where it went in development, the name largely a vestige.

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.
I really like your idea.
I like this as well, except that I fear the effect would just render this a simple curse in games with another curser, once the Curse pile is depleted. It might warrant this change nonetheless if I bumped the VP penalty to -2 on this card.

Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.
Yeah, you did misread that. It's a Smithy that sometimes gives you VP. And I think I will remove the on-buy effect of this.

Holy See looks worth testing, at least (though probably something Diocese would be a better name, as there is only one Holy See); you'll want to see how often people buy this over Duchy.
From the few tests I've played with it, it served especially as a counterpoint to Templar and as a good buy later in the game near the shuffle point to push for major greening to the finish.

Labyrinth is interesting; my instinct is to compare it with Tunnel and Island, other Alt-VP cards that are too weak to be strategies on their own, but are sometimes worth buying for their abilities. However, I'm not sure I'd buy a Labyrinth for its ability, if it will trigger someone else's Labyrinth. Maybe have it trigger on gaining Provinces, or on gaining Treasures?
Good point. I think I could just use the wording "Victory card other than Labyrinth."

Iconoclast seems way too powerful; it's a combination of a slightly-weaker Monument and a slightly-weaker Sea Hag.
It seemed to pass muster after revision when it was posted some time ago. Cursing with it turned out in reality to be quite difficult to effect, unless a player was willfully ignoring the +VP token gainers on the table in favor of a different strategy.

Cursed Idol seems pretty weak; in order to use it, I have to buy what is effectively a Copper, costing myself a VP in the process, and then buy junk cards in order to curse other people.
Yeah, I've been trying and trying to retool this card in a way that toned down its ridiculous ability to dole out curses en masse in previous iterations. I'm not sure it's worth retooling again. I can track down the link for the other thread if you want to review the discussion.

Collection Plate is similar to Explorer; how often do you buy one of those?
Depends on your deck composition. Explorer can't get you alt-Treasures either. Nor does it have the deck-cycling effect. It's also cheaper.

Collection Plate seems weak, especially since a single Charity isn't really bad.
I welcome suggestions on weakening Charity.

Penance is similar to Distant Lands, which costs $5; is it too cheap?
You nerfed Penance a little too much from it's previous version. Now it's just a Moat that gives you 2VP when you trash it instead of moat's reaction.
Two very different views on Penance pricing. I think it's in some ways a riskier investment than Distant Lands, since it gives you negative points if you fail. You essentially go into debt first. You also can't get rid of it if there's a Curse or Hex in hand, which, given the terminal draw of this card, is another potential impediment to the reward after the early game. I think LibraryAdventurer is right that if anything, I nerfed it too much. But +3 cards might be too strong. I welcome suggestions.

Templar is going to be a big pain to resolve with the "Look through each others players' discard piles" part. It'd be simpler to say, "Each other player reveals their discard pile and shuffles up to five victory cards from it into their deck." Even that is going to cause too much reshuffling, and I don't think the attack needs to be up to five. I would do something like this: "Each other player reveals their discard pile and puts two (or 3) non-action victory cards from it on top of their deck."
I'll think about it. Top-decking definitely speeds things up a bit, but it's a much harsher attack. Then again, Templar is player only once every other turn....

I use a card almost the same as Synod, except it says "reveal the top 2" instead of 3, and it's still plenty strong for a $4 cost. So I think Synod might be too strong for $4 & too weak for $5 as is.
I originally priced it at $5, but with +3 Actions. But as posted here, I think it is comparable to Wandering Minstrel and is not necessarily strictly stronger or weaker than it. WM draws you a card no matter what, while Synod sometimes fails. WM sets up subsequent draws to grab Actions, but Synod discards all but the one you choose to put in hand.

Does Holy Vestment count itself when counting holy vestments on the tavern mat? hard to tell.
No, you first call HV and then your count the VMs on the mat. So you need at least two to make the card useful.

I think Pardon is too similar to Shanty Town to be worth using. Also, I think Missal is too similar to Expedition.
Similar. But I think they are sufficiently distinct to make their existence worthwhile. Shanty Town and Pardon play differently; and Missal is a bit more versatile than Expedition.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2015, 11:08:33 am »
0

Indulgence should mention the Curse must come from your hand. Also, it could just be a Victory card worth 2 VP per Curse on your Indulgence Mat.

Personally i think the Curse mechanic seemes squeezed in. A VP card that trashes itself to boost further copies of it is allready complicated enough. Indulgence wants to be that, and also an anti-Curse defense. Or does it? It's hard to tell, because there are two concepts and they are mixed, making neither recognizeable. It's like how Scrying Pool would be a better designed card if it didn't have that Spy mixed in for no reason. Maybe think about splitting the idea into two cards.

Or is it supposed to be a "Makes you want to buy Curses" card? I can't say much about those, except that i never saw one i really liked.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.183 seconds with 20 queries.