Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]

Author Topic: Holy Order  (Read 12218 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Holy Order
« on: December 17, 2015, 10:08:32 am »
+3

This post has been updated to reflect the current state of the cards. The following are more or less stable right now:
Here is the current state of all the cards in the set:

Clergy Traveller line:

Note: Cardinal clearly needs a buff. It's been played extensively. It doesn't give you any reward for trashing junk, though, and it doesn't hang around in your deck long enough to be used to liquidate your deck for points, since it's just a flash in the pan on the way to Pope. Maybe a static base VP gain like bishop, maybe some amount of draw first so it at least gives you a better chance to trash junk.


Sinner Traveller line:



Note 1: The card amounts for this line: Sinner (8x in 2p, 12x in 3-4p); the rest 4x
Note 2: Heretic feels a little weak, and might warrant a buff. Nun is very strong by comparison, but doesn't have the longevity (your deck quickly runs out of junk to trash for points) and stays a double-lab


$6+



$5

Notes:
Corvee has been modified. It now only draws you cards when an opponent buys rather than gains a card. In testing, we ran into some weird interactions from a case I cannot recall at present.
Holy See could probably be reduced to $4 with no ill effect. But it's purchase is fairly niche anyway, so I don't think it would make much difference.


$4

Notes:
Wedding: Everyone, myself included, seems to keep forgetting the on-buy effect. I might make it optional. Or I just need to drill it into my and other peoples' heads further.
Collection Plate: The on-buy effect has been changed to a copper, and Charity has been repurposed. The on-buy effect too keeps getting forgotten in playtesting. Probably because my wife and I don't own Hinterlands.
Labyrinth: I think this could be reduced in price to $3, or the Labyrinth restriction to the points removed. The VP token benefit has been fairly fringe so far. It might just be that the card is pretty niche.
Another alternative would be for it to react to your own gain rather than another player's, while keeping the restriction on revealing from gaining Labyrinth. Then you could at least coordinate your buying of VP to accord with Labyrinth in hand.


$3



$2


$1


Non-supply

Note: Excommunication was renamed to Damnation, and its effect changed from an untrashable curse to a -1 VP that, when trashed, gives a curse and copper.

Events

Note: These are untested, and the prices not certain.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 11:01:55 am by GeneralRamos »
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1331
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 12:13:50 pm »
0

What is confession?
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2015, 12:40:19 pm »
0

Sorry, this was posted in the other thread.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6941
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9561
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2015, 12:40:43 pm »
+1



This really doesn't grab me. A Laboratory where the first one is also a Lab for your opponents. And you get a Silver. I mean it seems strong, but independent of its strength, it doesn't seem interesting.



This is potentially very confusing. I don't see the rules questions being worth it. Also it's incredibly strong and very stackable. Let's say another player plays Smithy. You can discard this for what is effectively +3 Cards and +1 Action. Then you can discard another Pardon—even one you just drew!—for another +3 Cards, and so on. And also the game has to slooooooow waaaaaaay dooooooown as you wait to see if other players are going to use Pardons after every Action you play that draws any cards (even just +1 Card). I don't think this card is worth salvaging.



So it's a combination of Familiar and Young Witch. Except it's super slow. You play two of these, so each player has to shuffle a Curse into his deck, draw a card, then shuffle another one in, etc.



This is potentially interesting. Or at least different enough from existing cards to be worth doing. It's sort of like Wandering Minstrel, but different enough. I'm guessing it's too strong for $5. I would, at minimum, reduce it to +2 Actions.



Uh, probably I would cost this at $5 or less. It's an Inn for Treasures, which I have panned before. I think it's nice on a Victory card, though. I would test it to see if it's a dud or what, but it seems like it has potential.



Looks promising. I would take out the on-gain part. The top is interesting enough without it and it just adds complexity.



Well I don't think we need another card with Mint's on-gain ability. We have Mint for that! The top part is really swingy and probably you never activate it, especially if you trashed a bunch of Coppers when you buy it. So mostly it's a one-shot Silver with Mint's on-gain ability. Not so interesting.



Here we have the same on-gain effect as on Iconographer. This card clearly doesn't have space for it, already being written in tiny text. The top half seems potentially interesting, albeit swingy. I mean you want to keep a Copper so that you can choose that, but maybe sometimes you just have a Tithe. But if you just have a Tithe, probably you don't play it. I wonder if it would be better as "When you play this, each other player may gain a Silver."



This one scares me. Mostly I worry about seating order issues, etc. I can choose to screw you over by not buying cards, which isn't fun for either of us, and lets the other players (if there are any) get a leg up. I don't think getting passed to the right makes up for it.
Logged

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 02:30:15 am »
0

Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4$ Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.

Pardon is a nice idea but far too strong for 1$. If another player does play a Smithy and you discard Pardon it is equivalent to a double Lab (you do not have to spend an action to discard it)!

Inquisition is interesting. Cantrip cursers are problematic but as there are some downsides to it (discarding a card, Confession as defense, the attacked player drawing a card) it is probably roughly balanced.

I agree with LFN that Synod should probably just provide 2 actions.

I do not see why Corvée should be a card that is passed around. Most often it is just a double Lab between turns which is fine ... but it does nothing on the turn it is played.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:18:55 am by tristan »
Logged

BadAssMutha

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 115
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 03:22:53 am »
0

Quote
Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4 Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.

Not true, with a CCCCE open and a Wedding buy, my next hand may well be SCCEE for $4, not $5.

Pardon seems way strong in any game that has +cards, especially when it's +3 or +4 cards.

Inquisition seems a bit expensive for a blockable curser that isn't even a cantrip.
Logged

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 06:11:07 am »
0

Quote
Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4 Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.

Not true, with a CCCCE open and a Wedding buy, my next hand may well be SCCEE for $4, not $5.
It may indeed well be 4$ and indeed well be 5$. Which is precisely what I said. ^^
It depends on whether the top-decked Silver substitutes an Estate or a Copper (you open with Wedding, topdeck a Silver and thus have 6 cards in your deck). In the former case you get 5$ and in the latter case 4$. Chances for the latter are slightly higher, 60%.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 06:17:36 am by tristan »
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1331
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2015, 06:39:30 am »
0

Quote
Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4 Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.

Not true, with a CCCCE open and a Wedding buy, my next hand may well be SCCEE for $4, not $5.
It may indeed well be 4$ and indeed well be 5$. Which is precisely what I said. ^^
It depends on whether the top-decked Silver substitutes an Estate or a Copper (you open with Wedding, topdeck a Silver and thus have 6 cards in your deck). In the former case you get 5$ and in the latter case 4$. Chances for the latter are slightly higher, 60%.
Doesn't opening double Silver give you about a 60% chance of hitting $5 as well? So it double Silver too strong?
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2015, 06:44:38 am »
0

Quote
Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4 Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.

Not true, with a CCCCE open and a Wedding buy, my next hand may well be SCCEE for $4, not $5.
It may indeed well be 4$ and indeed well be 5$. Which is precisely what I said. ^^
It depends on whether the top-decked Silver substitutes an Estate or a Copper (you open with Wedding, topdeck a Silver and thus have 6 cards in your deck). In the former case you get 5$ and in the latter case 4$. Chances for the latter are slightly higher, 60%.
Doesn't opening double Silver give you about a 60% chance of hitting $5 as well? So it double Silver too strong?
What does the third move have to do with this? Wedding changes the SECOND move if you open with 4. With Wedding a 4-3 changes into a 4-4 or 4-5 opening.
I do not think that this is game breaking or anything but changing the symmetry of the opening (normally it doesn't matter whether you open with 3-4 or 4-3 with Doctor being the only exception that comes to mind right now) opening it is a significant change and probably makes Wedding an autobuy if you open with 4 in a lot of decks.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 06:45:55 am by tristan »
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1331
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 07:13:07 am »
0

Quote
Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4 Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.

Not true, with a CCCCE open and a Wedding buy, my next hand may well be SCCEE for $4, not $5.
It may indeed well be 4$ and indeed well be 5$. Which is precisely what I said. ^^
It depends on whether the top-decked Silver substitutes an Estate or a Copper (you open with Wedding, topdeck a Silver and thus have 6 cards in your deck). In the former case you get 5$ and in the latter case 4$. Chances for the latter are slightly higher, 60%.
Doesn't opening double Silver give you about a 60% chance of hitting $5 as well? So it double Silver too strong?
What does the third move have to do with this? Wedding changes the SECOND move if you open with 4. With Wedding a 4-3 changes into a 4-4 or 4-5 opening.
I do not think that this is game breaking or anything but changing the symmetry of the opening (normally it doesn't matter whether you open with 3-4 or 4-3 with Doctor being the only exception that comes to mind right now) opening it is a significant change and probably makes Wedding an autobuy if you open with 4 in a lot of decks.
Except now you have a Wedding and a Silver in your deck. A Silver is nice, sure, but Wedding looks a little weak. On a Baker board, you could've just opened Silver/Five cost and skipped the weak Wedding. And no one thinks Baker openings are too overpowered.
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 07:47:49 am »
0

Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4$ Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.
*ahem* Nomad Camp.
If consensus is that topdecking silver is too strong, I can always just put it in the discard. But i don't think it's a problem, really. Same gamble on your second buy as Nomad Camp.

Here's an alternate version of Corvee:

This doesn't react to a particular player, but all players. It also doesn't pass. It draws only up to a certain number of cards, so as to accommodate multi-player in this new framework. Offers resiliency against handsize attacks.

A whole new Pardon. Bears no resemblance to 1.0, just the name and image:

A sort of Shanty Town variant. If you end up with a bad hand, or have played out your other actions, you can reveal a hand with no Actions, discard it, and draw 3. Of course, if you have a hand full of treasure, you might not want to reveal.

And the original concept of Pardon transformed significantly into Missal:

Reacts only to your own resolved action, instead of others, which takes care of the slow-down critique. You may trash it as a one-shot buffer to another Action card, netting you +1 Card to your hand. This is, I imagine, more the bonus. The over-buying is why you'd bother with it in the first place (cf. Stonemason). I'm willing to entertain the notion it should be priced at $2.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 08:32:11 am by GeneralRamos »
Logged

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 08:45:23 am »
0

Wedding is too strong. If you open with 4$ Wedding is an auto-buy as you increase the coins for you second turn to 4 or 5.
*ahem* Nomad Camp.
The on-gain effect of Nomad Camp is priced into the card, it is a more expensive Woodcutter. So let's compare buying a Nomad Camp and a Wedding on turn 1 if you have 4 coins:

With Nomad Camp you pay 4$ for a 3$ card on turn 1 and in return you get 4$ or 5$ on turn two. 4$ just counteracts that you overpaid 1$ for Nomad Camp so the opening is only really changed if, with 40% probability, you get 5$ on turn 2. So you get on average +0.4$ on move 2.
This is different from Wedding which gets on average +1.4$ on move 2.

Furthermore note that Nomad Camp, a terminal silver with an extra buy, is in and of itself rarely (Peddler, Fool's Gold or other 2$ cards you want several copies of are the exception) a good initial purchase. Wedding on the other hands is a Lab variant and like Lab it is useful in nearly all circumstances.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 08:53:35 am by tristan »
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2015, 10:56:11 am »
+1

I just thought of a simple reason that Holy Order cannot gain Silvers at all when you gain one, let alone on top of your deck: If it gained silvers on-gain, it would be a strictly better buy than Silver at $4, which is a Dominion no-no. Now, it could cost $5 and keep the topdecking silver, but it probably is too weak for $5. Although it may be balanced at $5.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7009
  • Respect: +7839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2015, 12:00:37 pm »
+2

Um, Corvee seems extremely weak. The best it can possibly be is +3 cards on your next turn. Looks at Haunted Woods. That gives you the same thing plus it attacks your opponents. And this will rarely actually be +3 cards, normally it will be +2 cards, or worse. Wharf gives you that plus a buy, and 2 cards and a buy when you play it. This is just an extremely weaker version of Wharf/Haunted Woods. And one that is a one-shot before your opponent gets it?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2015, 02:00:17 pm »
+2

Yeah I don't get Corvée either. I mean, making it non-scaling in multiplayer by letting you draw up to X is a step in the right direction but this makes it significantly weaker. This version could maybe cost $3.
The new Pardon and Missal are pretty creative ideas and Pardon looks solid! Missal could easily cost $2 or even less, I think. Also I don't see the need for the top part to be a reaction. It could just say "+1 Action. Trash this. If you do, +2 Cards."
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2015, 03:16:26 pm »
0

I just thought of a simple reason that Holy Order cannot gain Silvers at all when you gain one, let alone on top of your deck: If it gained silvers on-gain, it would be a strictly better buy than Silver at $4, which is a Dominion no-no.
Okay, yeah, that's a great point. I'm gonna have to reconsider the nature of the on-gain bonus for buying it. Considering a margrave-like function, either put one or put two Treasures from in play on top of your deck.

The best it can possibly be is +3 cards on your next turn. Looks at Haunted Woods. That gives you the same thing plus it attacks your opponents. And this will rarely actually be +3 cards, normally it will be +2 cards, or worse. Wharf gives you that plus a buy, and 2 cards and a buy when you play it.
Also good points, referring to version 1.0, but mostly accurate for the update as well. I knew I over-nerfed it, and it'll need something useful in the turn you play it: thinking either a draw-up-to-6 (thematic with the Duration effect) or a handsize attack on opponents (ensuring there's always a handsize attack in kingdoms with this, and making the Duration effect more valuable).

The new Pardon and Missal are pretty creative ideas and Pardon looks solid! Missal could easily cost $2 or even less, I think. Also I don't see the need for the top part to be a reaction. It could just say "+1 Action. Trash this. If you do, +2 Cards."
True, and I almost wrote anticipating this when I posted it. Missal as printed differs from that in two ways. (1) Downside: it's dead without another action in hand; (2) upside: if you draw it from resolving an actions (say, Smithy) you can still trash this to buff it without another action. I leave it up to debate whether these are interesting enough differences, though I think the latter could be.
And I agree on the cost reduction. $2 is probably right.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:37:25 pm by GeneralRamos »
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2015, 03:39:56 pm »
+1

The best it can possibly be is +3 cards on your next turn. Looks at Haunted Woods. That gives you the same thing plus it attacks your opponents. And this will rarely actually be +3 cards, normally it will be +2 cards, or worse. Wharf gives you that plus a buy, and 2 cards and a buy when you play it.
Also good points, referring to version 1.0, but mostly accurate for the update as well. I knew I over-nerfed it, and it'll need something useful in the turn you play it: thinking either a draw-up-to-6 (thematic with the Duration effect) or a handsize attack on opponents (ensuring there's always a handsize attack in kingdoms with this, and making the Duration effect more valuable).

The handsize attack option antisynergizes with the duration effect though, because it makes it harder for your opponents to buy higher-cost cards, which means less cards drawn for you.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2015, 05:50:54 pm »
0

Here are the next 5:

Funeral:At base, it's half a Fishing Village. Trash it first and it's a one-shot Bazaar. As they power up, of course, there's less availability of them. If there are cards that steal from the trash, you might even power down your opponents'. Resurrection.


Blackmail:Another Excommunication dealer (see Arch-Heretic from the other thread). Less thematic by name but descriptive of function. Every other time Blackmail is played, it either puts Silvers and Golds into the trash or deals Excommunications (an untrashable Curse in smaller numbers). Every other time Blackmail is played, you may gain a Treasure from the trash. Of course, the first time you play it will most likely be a dud, giving players enough time to at least get a few Silvers for "bribing."


Indulgence (2.0): Same name, totally different card. I reworked the curses=points mechanic from the original Arch-Heretic card. This card still allows Curses to be converted to points, but not all Curses in your deck. In fact, you can pump up the value of Curses to more than just 1 VP. But it maxes out at 5 points a curse for 5 points, though depending on how many curses you have in hand, it might be worth putting a few more on the Indulgence mat. If you have no Indulgences in you deck at the end of the game, you essentially just trashed the Curses on your mat (they equal 0VP). At the cost of $2, it should be ungainable from the trash by any official card.


Reliquary:
An expensive Silver on it's own. But in games with Cursers, it can mitigate their damage. In games with useful Hexes, all the better. It might even be worth buying a Curse with this in hand to gain the Gold.


Black Mass: The last of the Curse-interaction cards. It may be too similar to Reliquary to keep both of them. It stays in play until you start a turn with a Curse in hand. But maybe it shouldn't stay out so long. I honestly have no idea how to price it, and welcome thoughts on it. My inkling is Reliquary will be the one to prevail.

Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2015, 07:24:09 pm »
0

If you're going to make a card that works with Hexes, you should make more Kingdom Hexes than just Sinner.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2102
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2902
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2015, 09:45:16 pm »
0

Thoughts:

Funeral: It looks interesting, but I'm not sure it works. It is Village type, so you usually want lots of them, but then, you don't want to trash. Also, you are helping your opponent big time by trashing this unless you won the Funreal split already. I think this may lead to the following problematic scenarios:
1) You are in need of Villages and there is no other one, in which case you will simply use this as a bad Squire.
2) The card is so strong that you cannot allow your opponent to win the split significantly to trash them. The Funerals will split and both players have added bad cards to their deck that they are unwilling to trash because they don't want to help their opponent.
I think you could fix 1 by not putting the effect on a Village and 2 by making it so that only the Funerals you trashed give you a bonus (probably requires mats or tokens). Either 1 or 2 should be fixed I think, not necessarily both.

Indulgence: The Curse interaction (and the fact that it's doing nothing but that) is problematic: Either this is strong enough to make you want to buy Curses, in which case it completely nullifies any cursing attacks, or it is not, in which case it will be a complete dud in games without cursers. Both these things are not desirable.

Relinquary: Looks rather weak. Compare to Hoard, which does not need to be discarded for the same effect. I suggest making it something like Caravan Guard: You can react, gain a Gold, and still get the +$2 on your turn.

Black Mass: Similar problems as indulgence, though I think it is very clear at least that this does not make buying Curses worth it. Buying a single Curse maybe for TfB shenenigans, but that will still make cursing hurt. Some shaky math: I think a card with just "gain a Gold" would be okay-ish priced at $4 (compare Explorer and Feast). This delays that effect (-$1; compare Caravan/Lab) and makes it conditional (-$1). SO $2 is probably a good price.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2102
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2902
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2015, 09:53:44 pm »
0

Somewhat whacky idea for Black Mass: Instead of discarding the Curse, pass it to the player to the left.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2015, 11:20:22 pm »
0

I think you could fix 1 by not putting the effect on a Village and 2 by making it so that only the Funerals you trashed give you a bonus (probably requires mats or tokens). Either 1 or 2 should be fixed I think, not necessarily both.
I'll consider changing part 1. I'll have to think about what it would be instead.

Indulgence: The Curse interaction (and the fact that it's doing nothing but that) is problematic: Either this is strong enough to make you want to buy Curses, in which case it completely nullifies any cursing attacks, or it is not, in which case it will be a complete dud in games without cursers. Both these things are not desirable.
I doubt it would ever be strong enough to render Cursers moot. But whether it would be worthwhile to go after an intentional Indulgence-Curse strategy to a large extent I won't know til I can sit and test this one out a few times. But it might make sense to extend it to Hexes as well. (And Re: Gubump: Note also Excommunication is a Hex. There are still more Hexes, I just haven't posted all the cards as of yet).

[quote author=faust link=topic=14416.msg553591#msg553591 Relinquary: Looks rather weak. Compare to Hoard, which does not need to be discarded for the same effect. I suggest making it something like Caravan Guard: You can react, gain a Gold, and still get the +$2 on your turn.[/quote]
Good idea. That or gain the Gold in hand? Or might that discourage cursers too much?

Somewhat whacky idea for Black Mass: Instead of discarding the Curse, pass it to the player to the left.
Some sort of passing mechanic incorporated into this might be interesting. I need to ruminate on it and what that might entail.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 11:22:34 pm by GeneralRamos »
Logged

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2015, 05:28:50 am »
0



This is potentially interesting. Or at least different enough from existing cards to be worth doing. It's sort of like Wandering Minstrel, but different enough. I'm guessing it's too strong for $5. I would, at minimum, reduce it to +2 Actions.
2 actions would make it worse and more expensive than Farming village.
Plus you're not sure to draw a card with Synod. So 3 actions seems fine and we might want to add "discard the rest or put them back on top of your deck in any order"
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10721
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11224
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2015, 05:42:34 am »
+1

2 actions would make it worse and more expensive than Farming village.

No. Farming Village is literally just Village. Synod discards all junk cards, including Treasures (which is what the majority of your junk cards are anyway), and can easily draw more than one card.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2015, 05:56:56 am »
+1


Problem: who's gonna want to trash one first? Not me, because it's too expensive for a one-shot Bazaar.


I'm not sure you need to create untrashable curses to make this worth it.


Problem: useless card in games without any cursers. I'm not sure it makes buying curses worth it. Would cost 3 buys for 1 VP token.


Useless card in games without any cursers and hexers. Even when there are, it costs 5 for POTENTIALLY gaining a Gold, which you don't even put into your hand. Doesn't work.


I would add "When you buy this, gain a Curse" or some way to gain or give curses.
Logged

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2015, 05:58:14 am »
0

2 actions would make it worse and more expensive than Farming village.

No. Farming Village is literally just Village. Synod discards all junk cards, including Treasures (which is what the majority of your junk cards are anyway), and can easily draw more than one card.
I disagree about Treasure cards. By the time you are wealthy enough to buy Synod to get good Action cards, you have good Treasures in your deck.

And you can't draw more than one card with Synod, which should be worded "Put 1 Action card..." unless it means "Put any Action cards..."
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 06:03:45 am by beri »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10721
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11224
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2015, 07:08:53 am »
0

I disagree about Treasure cards. By the time you are wealthy enough to buy Synod to get good Action cards, you have good Treasures in your deck.

Well, you have maybe one Silver, maybe two. You don't want to draw them though.

It seems like I misread the card though, it's true that you can't draw more than one card. Still, getting the best out of three cards is incredibly good for a splitter — that's what Wandering Minstrel does when you have two of them and it's a very strong $4.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2015, 07:56:21 am »
0

Quote
2 actions would make it worse and more expensive than Farming village.
I see what you're saying, but it's not strictly worse than it. It's not strictly worse to draw only an Action instead of either an Action or a Treasure. There it's just different, not worse. It's more like Wandering Minstrel and Farming Village had a sweet sweet baby. I'd argue it is almost strictly better than Wandering Minstrel, since it's basically a sifting village for Actions, but this one actually puts it in hand if you find it.

As to Reliquary, etc., being useless in games without Cursers, maybe not. At least it can be argued that curses are present in every game, so the option is always there. Their utility outside the context of cursers might just be more dependent on the shape of the rest of the board. For instance, if Goons is around, Indulgence might make it worthwhile considering buying a Curse for the +1VP, especially if I have good sifting to align my Indulgence with a curse.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2881
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3609
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2015, 09:42:18 am »
0

I think you want Black Mass to be a Reserve, not a Duration.
Logged

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2015, 09:47:36 am »
0

Funeral is too expensive. Note that without the Mining Village like self-trash bonus thingy it is worse (as it lacks the flexibility) than a Squire. As others have already noted, the self-trash thingy implies a positive externality so "too few" (than would be optimal if the game were a co-op) Funeral are trashed.

So the card would probably even be overpriced at 3$.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 09:48:39 am by tristan »
Logged

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2015, 07:22:18 pm »
0

Logged

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 08:44:39 pm »
0

Quote
I liked the previous Curse for Gold thing. Why remove it? As such, the card is plain useless. If you have a nice benefit for discarding a Curse, you don't need the part in italics.
Edit: I realize I accidentally deleted the main effect from the Black Mass mock up. It should indicate that if you discard a curse, gain a Gold.

Yeah, as stated, I realized later I accidentally removed that text. Imagine it still there. Still discards for Gold. But it also starts all players with one curse in their deck.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 08:45:41 pm by GeneralRamos »
Logged

beri

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2015, 04:17:55 am »
0

Starting with a Curse in every player's deck adds a line in the rules and kinda forces you to trash it or buy a Black mass.
Plus it makes Black mass too strong, since it doesn't cost you a buy to grab a curse.

I would remove this setup and make black mass cost 3.

I'm also wondering whether gaining Gold is not too strong.
Logged

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2015, 05:29:16 pm »
0


A one-shot Throne-Roomed Band of Misfits acting as the same action card both times.


A sort of counterpart to Coin of the Realm. Can be called at the start of your turn to draw cards. The number of cards drawn depends on the number of Holy Vestments on the Tavern mat. You need 2 for it to be effective at all, and most of the time you won't want to start using it until you've got 3 or 4.


A simple discard for $ card. If the card drawn from it is a "dead" Action, no matter!


Another Hex. A fairly low-risk negative VP, so long as you don't have too many colliding terminals or buy it too late. As soon as you can play it, you can trash it for VP.


A Smithy that gives you some value for drawing a dead VP card. Original version had +1 VP per differently named VP, but I think that was a bit much. Not sure that it's powerful enough to warrant the on-gain qualification; I'll probably scrap that.


Collection Plate seeks out and duplicates a decent treasure card, leaving it on top of your deck. Gaining a Charity Plate gives opponents a Charity, essentially an unstackable Silver than can be exchanged for a better Treasure down the road.


I ran a test game with Templar earlier. The top half is probably a bit weak, and maybe should be +1 Action, +4 Cards. You only get to use it once every other shuffle, after all. The Attack's strength depends somewhat on the other player's deck cycle and what stage they're at. It's a good way to slow down a player deep into Greening. This can sometimes lead to a pinned hand, but not without remedy. I also had Holy See in the kingdom, and that proved a formidable counterpoint to Templar, putting a bunch of Golds and Silvers back into the mix.
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2015, 10:20:42 pm »
0


A one-shot Throne-Roomed Band of Misfits acting as the same action card both times.


A sort of counterpart to Coin of the Realm. Can be called at the start of your turn to draw cards. The number of cards drawn depends on the number of Holy Vestments on the Tavern mat. You need 2 for it to be effective at all, and most of the time you won't want to start using it until you've got 3 or 4.


A simple discard for $ card. If the card drawn from it is a "dead" Action, no matter!


Another Hex. A fairly low-risk negative VP, so long as you don't have too many colliding terminals or buy it too late. As soon as you can play it, you can trash it for VP.


A Smithy that gives you some value for drawing a dead VP card. Original version had +1 VP per differently named VP, but I think that was a bit much. Not sure that it's powerful enough to warrant the on-gain qualification; I'll probably scrap that.


Collection Plate seeks out and duplicates a decent treasure card, leaving it on top of your deck. Gaining a Charity Plate gives opponents a Charity, essentially an unstackable Silver than can be exchanged for a better Treasure down the road.


I ran a test game with Templar earlier. The top half is probably a bit weak, and maybe should be +1 Action, +4 Cards. You only get to use it once every other shuffle, after all. The Attack's strength depends somewhat on the other player's deck cycle and what stage they're at. It's a good way to slow down a player deep into Greening. This can sometimes lead to a pinned hand, but not without remedy. I also had Holy See in the kingdom, and that proved a formidable counterpoint to Templar, putting a bunch of Golds and Silvers back into the mix.

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:27:43 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2015, 10:59:17 pm »
0

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Good eye on the missing Hex and misordered +Cards/+Action. I'll fix that.

The intention of "until you trash it" was to mean that up to the minute you trash it, but not when you trash it, it is that card. But looking back to the BoM FAQ this does seem to be a problem.
Quote
Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again.

So I welcome phrasing ideas to get the proper effect.

I'll mull over the thoughts on Templar. The Shuffle-Attack thing does require some addressing.
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2015, 11:37:04 pm »
0

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Good eye on the missing Hex and misordered +Cards/+Action. I'll fix that.

The intention of "until you trash it" was to mean that up to the minute you trash it, but not when you trash it, it is that card. But looking back to the BoM FAQ this does seem to be a problem.
Quote
Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again.

So I welcome phrasing ideas to get the proper effect.

I'll mull over the thoughts on Templar. The Shuffle-Attack thing does require some addressing.

How about this:

Shrine:
Play this twice as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than this. Put this into the trash pile. This is that card until it is removed from play.
Cost: $5
Action

Putting it into the trash is not the same as trashing it, so as you intended, trashing it will not activate on-trash effects.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 11:38:08 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

schadd

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 881
  • Shuffle iT Username: schadd
  • lockjaw
  • Respect: +1242
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2015, 12:11:11 am »
+1

shrine: i think this is pretty neat, and seemingly a bit strong, it compares kinda nicely to a few other $5s; if you use it on marauder, then it replaces pillage's discard a specific card with they gain 2 ruins, which i think is a bit better but maybe not a lot, which is a good sign. monument vs. distant lands, pay 2 vp to get $4. also good but hard to tell. i think the fact that you get to choose makes it better than all of these cards, but if it's good then it's good in an interesting way.

holy vestment, batman. i think this is a really good idea, probably my favorite among these. other than that, not much to say, it seems like the engine version of fool's gold, if there isn't anything better, buy a bunch of these. i'm ok with that i think. bad in multiplayer, as is fools' gold.

sacrament: incredibly weak i would say, the card itself is maybe as good as the top half of secret chamber and it costs 1 more: you draw one card but you can only discard your action cards and not the victories or whatever, and it doesn't have much place in an engine because you aren't oriented towards your engine failing, you might as well buy another component. would be reasonable if it costed like $1 and gave you $2 for each discard, maybe.

penance: i would describe this, in turn, as super busted. ultra-busted. draw two, trash two coppers for free, where do i sign. i just have to trash it by the end of the game, which is a long time from now, and then it's two free great halls.

crusade: this is probably fine. $5 smithies seem to like being mediocre, and this one seems to follow that trend. if anything it seems to like bm a bit, because terminal draw is nice and there isn't a problem with buying victory cards earlier. the biggest problem with vp token cards conceptually is that they can discourage ending the game, and this doesn't do that at all, which is nice.

collection plate: fine, if pretty bad. i would put it a little worse than taxman, because during your turn it gains a treasure that's usually better than a silver but doesn't trash a copper (your own trashing and the opponent's discard pretty much cancel) but it lets your opponent gets to gain something pretty close to a silver. that's pretty much only relevant in bm games, or if i can get a bunch of them and upgrade them quickly while opponent guy gets stuck with a bunch of charities.

templar: i don't see a reason why two labs this shuffle and none next with a bonus (that probably means your opponent will draw about 1 less card this shuffle) isn't better than lab, especially considering that maybe two 6-card hands is less ideal than a 5 and a 7. i would be fine with it at $6 and retaining +3 cards instead of 4

good job sport. these were pretty nice overall i think
Logged
I thought you thought it was a slip because I said 'Jake's partners' instead of 'Roadrunner7671.'
6-9
he/him
beloved my john, i'll carry on

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2015, 04:59:34 am »
0

I agree Sacrament is incredibly weak. If it drew two cards and gave $2 per discarded action card, then maybe. Allthough i guess filling up with these gets too trivial, then. By the way, i once had a similar card, and it solved the issue by having a Potion in its cost. It died for being not interesting enough.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2015, 08:38:49 am »
+1

Updated:



Logged

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2015, 09:18:12 am »
+1

Templar needs to say "each other player reveals all cards in their discard pile and shuffles..." lest there's no way for other players to trace how many Victory cards there are in other players' discard piles. Even without that phrase, this card is going to be very slow (thus annoying) to resolve.

Similarly, Sacrament needs to say "Reveal and discard any number of cards from your hand" because otherwise you could discard multiple cards at once without other players being able to see each one individually. At least I think that's how it would work.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2015, 10:53:29 am »
0

Templar needs to say "each other player reveals all cards in their discard pile and shuffles..." lest there's no way for other players to trace how many Victory cards there are in other players' discard piles. Even without that phrase, this card is going to be very slow (thus annoying) to resolve.

Similarly, Sacrament needs to say "Reveal and discard any number of cards from your hand" because otherwise you could discard multiple cards at once without other players being able to see each one individually. At least I think that's how it would work.

You are correct about both points.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2015, 10:18:20 pm »
0

Here is the current state of all the cards in the set:
Clergy Traveller line:

Sinner Traveller line:




$6+


$5


$4


$3


$2


$1


Non-supply
Logged

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 637
  • Respect: +1029
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2015, 02:50:15 am »
+1

How does Templar ever come off your reserve mat? If you intend for it to be a one-shot, wouldn't it be easier just to have it trash itself?

Your Clergy line really ought to go something along the lines of Deacon-Priest-Monsignor-Bishop-Archbishop. You don't want to have up to 5 Popes floating around, and Cardinal is a different kind of status than Bishop. (Not all Cardinals are Archbishops or even Bishops, and in the Middle Ages, some of them were even laymen.) (Plus, not all Europeans in the Dominion era were Catholic; some were Orthodox and had neither Cardinals nor a Pope).

Cloister seems overpriced; it's similar to Distant Lands but more expensive and less versatile, unless you plan to use a TFB on it.

Novice seems like an expensive version of Sage. It might be worth $3; definitely not $5, even given the arbitrariness of Traveller pricing.

The idea of Excommunication, an untrashable curse, is OK, but the name is odd, thematically. Excommunications can be and frequently are lifted, and are not the result of blackmail. Also, thematically, you ought to get an Excommunication for playing a Heretic or Blasphemer.

Nun can probably just set aside the Victory cards, like Island; it would make the card less wordy. Also, I think your 'Non-kingdom' wording is trying to account for variable-VP cards like Silk Road; setting them aside would avoid this problem, and also the problem of 'Non-Kingdom', which is not a Dominion term.

Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.

Holy See looks worth testing, at least (though probably something Diocese would be a better name, as there is only one Holy See); you'll want to see how often people buy this over Duchy.

Labyrinth is interesting; my instinct is to compare it with Tunnel and Island, other Alt-VP cards that are too weak to be strategies on their own, but are sometimes worth buying for their abilities. However, I'm not sure I'd buy a Labyrinth for its ability, if it will trigger someone else's Labyrinth. Maybe have it trigger on gaining Provinces, or on gaining Treasures?

Iconoclast seems way too powerful; it's a combination of a slightly-weaker Monument and a slightly-weaker Sea Hag.

Cursed Idol seems pretty weak; in order to use it, I have to buy what is effectively a Copper, costing myself a VP in the process, and then buy junk cards in order to curse other people.

Collection Plate is similar to Explorer; how often do you buy one of those?

Penance is similar to Distant Lands, which costs $5; is it too cheap?

I'll try to get some thoughts on the other cards in later.
















Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1104
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +849
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2015, 02:58:38 am »
0

Nice set, I think I'll print some of them out and play with them (might be a little while before I actually get around to doing it though). a few comments:

Sinner is missing some wording in the posted image. What is it supposed to say?
I agree with Marcory about Nun.

I don't think Crusade needs the drawback. It'd be good without the below the line part.
Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.
You misunderstand it. It puts all three cards in your hand, not just the victory cards.

Templar is going to be a big pain to resolve with the "Look through each others players' discard piles" part. It'd be simpler to say, "Each other player reveals their discard pile and shuffles up to five victory cards from it into their deck." Even that is going to cause too much reshuffling, and I don't think the attack needs to be up to five. I would do something like this: "Each other player reveals their discard pile and puts two (or 3) non-action victory cards from it on top of their deck."

Collection Plate seems weak, especially since a single Charity isn't really bad.

Marcory has a good point about not wanting to buy Labyrinth because it'd trigger other people's labyrinths.

I use a card almost the same as Synod, except it says "reveal the top 2" instead of 3, and it's still plenty strong for a $4 cost. So I think Synod might be too strong for $4 & too weak for $5 as is.

You nerfed Penance a little too much from it's previous version. Now it's just a Moat that gives you 2VP when you trash it instead of moat's reaction.

Does Holy Vestment count itself when counting holy vestments on the tavern mat? hard to tell.

I think Pardon is too similar to Shanty Town to be worth using. Also, I think Missal is too similar to Expedition.

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 03:07:31 am by LibraryAdventurer »
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3323
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2015, 03:07:37 am »
0

I like Cloister, it's a pretty novel idea to buy a Hovel. :)
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2015, 07:51:06 am »
0

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.

I really like your idea.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2015, 08:55:32 am »
0

How does Templar ever come off your reserve mat? If you intend for it to be a one-shot, wouldn't it be easier just to have it trash itself?
When your shuffle your deck. So not a one-shot. It only gets played once every other shuffle. But of course, an opponent with Templar ramps up the frequency of shuffling.

Your Clergy line really ought to go something along the lines of Deacon-Priest-Monsignor-Bishop-Archbishop. You don't want to have up to 5 Popes floating around, and Cardinal is a different kind of status than Bishop. (Not all Cardinals are Archbishops or even Bishops, and in the Middle Ages, some of them were even laymen.) (Plus, not all Europeans in the Dominion era were Catholic; some were Orthodox and had neither Cardinals nor a Pope).
The existence of Bishop hinders any attempt to make a stepwise or complete hierarchy of church offices. You'll note as well I've got "village priest" as such mostly as a reflection of the village-like nature of its turn two. I don't really care that there might be multiple popes floating around simultaneously (nor is it historically unprecedented). So in all, point taken, but not implemented.

Novice seems like an expensive version of Sage. It might be worth $3; definitely not $5, even given the arbitrariness of Traveller pricing.
Well, the arbitrariness of Traveller pricing makes it a moot point, more or less. But it's better compared to Golem than Sage. It is not concerned with price of cards, and only hits Actions.

Nun can probably just set aside the Victory cards, like Island; it would make the card less wordy. Also, I think your 'Non-kingdom' wording is trying to account for variable-VP cards like Silk Road; setting them aside would avoid this problem, and also the problem of 'Non-Kingdom', which is not a Dominion term.
This wording was suggested in the other thread on this Traveller line. Yes, setting aside a card could handle the other types of VP and it was suggested. I'll consider it further.

Sinner is missing some wording in the posted image. What is it supposed to say?
It's all there, actually. Changing the name to Blasphemer caused too much squeeze on the bottom line, so I needed to move the in to before the ellipses instead on before hand and play respectively. If you have a Confession in play, you may exchange Sinner for Novice; if you have Confession in hand, you may exchange Sinner for Blasphemer. If you have one in play and one in hand, you may choose which way to exchange (but still only one way or the other, as indicated by "exchange").

Cloister seems overpriced; it's similar to Distant Lands but more expensive and less versatile, unless you plan to use a TFB on it.
You might have misread this. Unlike Distant lands, this is not a risky investment. It's the opposite. You get the points when you buy it, and they're (mostly) untouchable. Cloister itself is fairly easy to get rid of thereafter, especially incentivizing buying more cloisters. Cloister is strictly better than Duchy, and not overpriced.

The idea of Excommunication, an untrashable curse, is OK, but the name is odd, thematically. Excommunications can be and frequently are lifted, and are not the result of blackmail. Also, thematically, you ought to get an Excommunication for playing a Heretic or Blasphemer.
Sure, but theme's not everything. I mean, Giant and Torturer are both cursers connected to a witch-themed card. I mostly just wanted another card using Excommunication connected to Heretic. But I would certainly consider changing Excommunication's name. It started elsewhere from where it went in development, the name largely a vestige.

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.
I really like your idea.
I like this as well, except that I fear the effect would just render this a simple curse in games with another curser, once the Curse pile is depleted. It might warrant this change nonetheless if I bumped the VP penalty to -2 on this card.

Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.
Yeah, you did misread that. It's a Smithy that sometimes gives you VP. And I think I will remove the on-buy effect of this.

Holy See looks worth testing, at least (though probably something Diocese would be a better name, as there is only one Holy See); you'll want to see how often people buy this over Duchy.
From the few tests I've played with it, it served especially as a counterpoint to Templar and as a good buy later in the game near the shuffle point to push for major greening to the finish.

Labyrinth is interesting; my instinct is to compare it with Tunnel and Island, other Alt-VP cards that are too weak to be strategies on their own, but are sometimes worth buying for their abilities. However, I'm not sure I'd buy a Labyrinth for its ability, if it will trigger someone else's Labyrinth. Maybe have it trigger on gaining Provinces, or on gaining Treasures?
Good point. I think I could just use the wording "Victory card other than Labyrinth."

Iconoclast seems way too powerful; it's a combination of a slightly-weaker Monument and a slightly-weaker Sea Hag.
It seemed to pass muster after revision when it was posted some time ago. Cursing with it turned out in reality to be quite difficult to effect, unless a player was willfully ignoring the +VP token gainers on the table in favor of a different strategy.

Cursed Idol seems pretty weak; in order to use it, I have to buy what is effectively a Copper, costing myself a VP in the process, and then buy junk cards in order to curse other people.
Yeah, I've been trying and trying to retool this card in a way that toned down its ridiculous ability to dole out curses en masse in previous iterations. I'm not sure it's worth retooling again. I can track down the link for the other thread if you want to review the discussion.

Collection Plate is similar to Explorer; how often do you buy one of those?
Depends on your deck composition. Explorer can't get you alt-Treasures either. Nor does it have the deck-cycling effect. It's also cheaper.

Collection Plate seems weak, especially since a single Charity isn't really bad.
I welcome suggestions on weakening Charity.

Penance is similar to Distant Lands, which costs $5; is it too cheap?
You nerfed Penance a little too much from it's previous version. Now it's just a Moat that gives you 2VP when you trash it instead of moat's reaction.
Two very different views on Penance pricing. I think it's in some ways a riskier investment than Distant Lands, since it gives you negative points if you fail. You essentially go into debt first. You also can't get rid of it if there's a Curse or Hex in hand, which, given the terminal draw of this card, is another potential impediment to the reward after the early game. I think LibraryAdventurer is right that if anything, I nerfed it too much. But +3 cards might be too strong. I welcome suggestions.

Templar is going to be a big pain to resolve with the "Look through each others players' discard piles" part. It'd be simpler to say, "Each other player reveals their discard pile and shuffles up to five victory cards from it into their deck." Even that is going to cause too much reshuffling, and I don't think the attack needs to be up to five. I would do something like this: "Each other player reveals their discard pile and puts two (or 3) non-action victory cards from it on top of their deck."
I'll think about it. Top-decking definitely speeds things up a bit, but it's a much harsher attack. Then again, Templar is player only once every other turn....

I use a card almost the same as Synod, except it says "reveal the top 2" instead of 3, and it's still plenty strong for a $4 cost. So I think Synod might be too strong for $4 & too weak for $5 as is.
I originally priced it at $5, but with +3 Actions. But as posted here, I think it is comparable to Wandering Minstrel and is not necessarily strictly stronger or weaker than it. WM draws you a card no matter what, while Synod sometimes fails. WM sets up subsequent draws to grab Actions, but Synod discards all but the one you choose to put in hand.

Does Holy Vestment count itself when counting holy vestments on the tavern mat? hard to tell.
No, you first call HV and then your count the VMs on the mat. So you need at least two to make the card useful.

I think Pardon is too similar to Shanty Town to be worth using. Also, I think Missal is too similar to Expedition.
Similar. But I think they are sufficiently distinct to make their existence worthwhile. Shanty Town and Pardon play differently; and Missal is a bit more versatile than Expedition.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2015, 11:08:33 am »
0

Indulgence should mention the Curse must come from your hand. Also, it could just be a Victory card worth 2 VP per Curse on your Indulgence Mat.

Personally i think the Curse mechanic seemes squeezed in. A VP card that trashes itself to boost further copies of it is allready complicated enough. Indulgence wants to be that, and also an anti-Curse defense. Or does it? It's hard to tell, because there are two concepts and they are mixed, making neither recognizeable. It's like how Scrying Pool would be a better designed card if it didn't have that Spy mixed in for no reason. Maybe think about splitting the idea into two cards.

Or is it supposed to be a "Makes you want to buy Curses" card? I can't say much about those, except that i never saw one i really liked.

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2015, 07:10:44 pm »
+1

I don't really like the idea of a curse that's completely untrashable (Excommunication). I'd rather just make it harder to trash. Maybe "When you trash this, gain a curse" so you'd basically have to trash it twice.
I really like your idea.
I like this as well, except that I fear the effect would just render this a simple curse in games with another curser, once the Curse pile is depleted. It might warrant this change nonetheless if I bumped the VP penalty to -2 on this card.

How about "When you trash this, gain a Curse from the trash. If you didn't gain a Curse, put this in your discard pile"? This way you can only trash an Excommunication without penalty if there are Cursers but the trashing is weak (or non-existent), in which case your deck would already be full of junk and it would be quite harsh to junk you even further.

Crusade looks really weak; a Scout without the +1 Action. I'd usually rather just have a Duchy.
Yeah, you did misread that. It's a Smithy that sometimes gives you VP. And I think I will remove the on-buy effect of this.

I think a Smithy that sometimes gives you +1VP is too weak for $5. After all, each time you get +1VP at least one of the cards you drew is a dead card. So I would bump it up to 2VP. Because, you know, $5-cards are supposed to be significantly better than $4-cards and all that.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2015, 08:14:33 pm »
0

Inre excommunication: something like that sounds good.
For crusade, the alt version I posted once had one +VP per differently named victory card. Another option.
Logged

Thanar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +136
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2015, 11:22:39 pm »
0

Interesting set of cards. Instead of critiquing the content, I thought I'd focus on typos and wording.

1) Typo corrections:

Village Priest – Change “a Archbishop” to “an Archbishop”
Templar – Change “5 Victory card” to “5 Victory cards
Corvée – Change “6/7/8 Cards” to “6/7/8 cards”
Penance – Change “Trash this from in play” to “Trash this from play”
Iconographer – Change “2 Treasures cards” to “2 Treasure cards”
Charity – In the text under the line, remove the extra space between “costing” and “up”

2) Improved wording to match official cards:

Iconographer – Change “If not trash” to “If you don’t, trash”
Missal – Change “you may draw an extra card for your next hand” to “you may draw an extra card in this turn’s Clean-up phase”
Charity – Change “If this is the first Charity you played this turn” to “If this is the first time you played a Charity this turn”
Confession – Change “If not” to “If you don’t”
Logged

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 637
  • Respect: +1029
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2015, 12:11:53 am »
0

OK, first a few responses, then to the rest of the cards:

Templar: As written, 'you may discard this' implies from your hand; it should specify 'discard this from your Tavern Mat' or 'from your hand or reserve mat' for clarity's sake.

Cloister: Point taken. But there's still an opportunity cost. First you're buying a Duchy's worth of points over Gold or a $5 card; then, once you have the Cloister in hand, you have to either buy a VP Card, or have Cloister continue to clog your deck. If I'm going to spend $6 on a Duchy anyway, fine; but I'm not sure this is as versatile as, say, Farmland, which helps you when you're already greening. But sure, it's an interesting idea, and I look forward to the results of testing it.

Crusade: Mea Culpa; that's what I get for posting at midnight. :)

Holy See: This does have its niche uses, but is mostly valuable when 1) you only have $6 or $7 late, and feel that the extra point from Duchy won't swing the game; 2) Your deck is Treasure-Based, rather than Engine-based (because Engines wouldn't want Treasures clogging up their next hand. So again, a niche card--not necessarily a bad one, but still one with limited overall value except perhaps in a Holy Order-only Kingdom.

Iconoclast: I'll trust the forum's judgment, then.

Penance: I think I probably misread this card. But in any case, would it be better as something along the lines of 'Gain a Copper; if you do, + [3?] Cards'? This would make it a niche card like Beggar that has some useful combos. It would retain the self-penalizing aspect, and you could keep the on-trash bonus if you want.

On to the other cards:

Reliquary: Seems weak; maybe a little better than Trade Route, but it scales well with multiplayer and may be a decent counter to the likes of Cultist.

Black Mass: Superficially similar to Quest. Only problem is that it's completely useless in games without Cursing attacks. Maybe you could have it discard a Curse or Victory card costing $3 or more (so that it doesn't trash Estates or Overgrown Estate)? But I like the concept.

Indulgence: I think this would be weak even if its ability weren't a one-shot. Sure, in some games you'll want one of these for the cantrip +Buy, but it's only better than Market Square in games that have both Cursing and no Trashing. Maybe you could instead have it read, 'You may trash this and another card from your hand; if you do, +2 VP' for a similar but more versatile  effect.

Iconographer I like it, but the text could be improved to
+1 VP
Choose one: Trash two Treasures from your hand; or trash this and gain a silver

Holy Vestment  If I have 3 Holy Vestments on my Tavern mat and decide to call all of them at the start of my turn, do I draw 6 or 9 cards? (If I have to resolve them sequentially, I get 3 from the 1st HV, 2 from the 2nd, 1 from the 3rd; if they resolve simultaneously, then they each draw 3 cards). I don't know of a good reading to distinguish the two possibilities.

Funeral: As a rule, Dominion cards either give +Coin or +Cards but not both at the same time. I think this card would be better off giving +Coin only; there are precedents for one-shot coin producers (Spoils, Death Cart, Pillage), but not one-shots that give +Cards, except for Madman, which is intentionally overpowered. (I suspect that this means that one-shot that gives +Cards has already been tested and found wanting).  Also, you might want to have it cost $3, because Dark Ages introduced a division between 'good trash' that costs $3 or more, and 'Bad Trash' that costs $2 or less.

Pardon and Missal I agree with Library Adventurer

Collection Plate Wouldn't it be better to just deal out Coppers, because 1) a single Charity is not all that bad, as LA said, and 2) Charity seems to weak to use up a card slot, even if it's not in the Supply.

Confession Donald X has already said that he's tried a discarding Lab for $4 and it didn't work (see the Secret History of Adventures, or the Fugitive page on the wiki)

Excommunication--thematically, it would be great if this could only be trashed by a Chapel, Bishop, or other church-type card, but I realize that's not possible to work; otherwise, would it be better to make this 'When you trash this, gain two Coppers'? That way, you could still trash it, but it would be painful.

Overall, you have a good set of ideas, though, with some interesting cards already and some more that have promise.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 12:20:54 am by Marcory »
Logged

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2015, 07:32:08 am »
0

Holy Vestment's lower part should be worded "Once per turn, at the start of your turn, you may call this, to draw a card per Holy Vestment on your Tavern mat." This way it's in line with other Reserve cards and also clearer how many cards you draw.
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2015, 08:18:15 am »
0

Thanks for the typo corrections, Thanar. Note on the wording for Missal: that phrasing comes from Expedition, actually. So there's some variation in the phrasing for this sort of effect it seems.

Thanks again for the detailed commentary, Marcory. My notes follow:
Templar: As written, 'you may discard this' implies from your hand; it should specify 'discard this from your Tavern Mat' or 'from your hand or reserve mat' for clarity's sake.
Noted, will add the wording to clarify!

Quote
Penance: I think I probably misread this card. But in any case, would it be better as something along the lines of 'Gain a Copper; if you do, + [3?] Cards'? This would make it a niche card like Beggar that has some useful combos. It would retain the self-penalizing aspect, and you could keep the on-trash bonus if you want.
I like this. A lot. I think that can be implemented without it needing a line break, but if I can't I'll need to retool the wording overall to implement it.

Quote
Reliquary: Seems weak; maybe a little better than Trade Route, but it scales well with multiplayer and may be a decent counter to the likes of Cultist.
This was built on comparison with Forager rather than Trade Route, actually. I initially wanted to make it dependent on differently named Action cards in the trash, but thought that could get crazy. Then I thought +$1 for every 2 differently named Actions in the trash, but then it gets a little hard to start up. So then I thought of attaching it to Ruins. I wonder if setting it to play off Actions more generally would be worth a revisit.

Quote
Black Mass: Superficially similar to Quest. Only problem is that it's completely useless in games without Cursing attacks. Maybe you could have it discard a Curse or Victory card costing $3 or more (so that it doesn't trash Estates or Overgrown Estate)? But I like the concept.
I wouldn't say useless, though obviously its value is more marginal in games without cursers. In games where it is present, all players will start with 1 curse in their deck anyway. And if there's decent trashing and you have a spare buy, you might grab another curse to speed up the Gold gain. We'll see upon testing.

Quote
Indulgence: I think this would be weak even if its ability weren't a one-shot. Sure, in some games you'll want one of these for the cantrip +Buy, but it's only better than Market Square in games that have both Cursing and no Trashing. Maybe you could instead have it read, 'You may trash this and another card from your hand; if you do, +2 VP' for a similar but more versatile  effect.
As is, it's done pretty well in test games at netting some decent VP in kingdoms with and without cursing, especially when one player goes at it uncontested.

Quote
Iconographer I like it, but the text could be improved to
+1 VP
Choose one: Trash two Treasures from your hand; or trash this and gain a silver
This turns it into a choice, though, which I didn't intend. If you play it and can't succeed in trashing two Treasures, I want you to have to trash it and gain a silver. As a choice, you can always just choose "Trash two Treasures" regardless of whether there are Treasures in hand to trash, and keep the +VP gainer.

Quote
Holy Vestment  If I have 3 Holy Vestments on my Tavern mat and decide to call all of them at the start of my turn, do I draw 6 or 9 cards? (If I have to resolve them sequentially, I get 3 from the 1st HV, 2 from the 2nd, 1 from the 3rd; if they resolve simultaneously, then they each draw 3 cards). I don't know of a good reading to distinguish the two possibilities.
The once per turn is supposed to indicate that you may only call on Holy Vestment once per turn. Perhaps a wording shift from "you may call this" to "you may call a Holy Vestment" would clarify this (though the FAQ will anyway). So the math is unnecessary in that case. I have 6 HVs on the mat, at the start of my turn I call one, and draw 5 cards. I cannot call another HV.

Quote
Funeral: As a rule, Dominion cards either give +Coin or +Cards but not both at the same time. I think this card would be better off giving +Coin only; there are precedents for one-shot coin producers (Spoils, Death Cart, Pillage), but not one-shots that give +Cards, except for Madman, which is intentionally overpowered. (I suspect that this means that one-shot that gives +Cards has already been tested and found wanting).  Also, you might want to have it cost $3, because Dark Ages introduced a division between 'good trash' that costs $3 or more, and 'Bad Trash' that costs $2 or less.
Funeral has seen considerable reworking from the original post, so much of it in this form hasn't been extensively tested yet. The combination of +Card/+Coin for the most powered-up version was mostly out of a desire to do something other than straight card draw for that stage. I don't quite get your initial statement, though. This is effectively what City does at its most powered up. The pricing point is goo to note, though. But I'm not sure its non-one-shot utility is worth bumping it to $3, since--as noted above--the above-the-line text is strictly worse than Squire.

Quote
Collection Plate Wouldn't it be better to just deal out Coppers, because 1) a single Charity is not all that bad, as LA said, and 2) Charity seems to weak to use up a card slot, even if it's not in the Supply.
Good point. I'll probably implement this.

Quote
Confession Donald X has already said that he's tried a discarding Lab for $4 and it didn't work (see the Secret History of Adventures, or the Fugitive page on the wiki)
Yeah, this has been raised above (page 1?). However, this is not a supply card you can just buy, so the pricing on this is nominal only. The pricing issue doesn't necessarily work the same for it. You can only gain it by buying a Duchy, meaning each Confession is also adding a dead card to your deck.
Logged

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2015, 06:29:18 pm »
0

Two Event ideas that came to me.
Excommunication [I've renamed the old Excommunication (see above) to Damnation, though still not settled on that]
Event    - $3
+1 Buy
Put this card on an Action supply pile. While this is on a supply pile, card from that pile cannot be played.

Book of Magic
Event    - $1
Move the Book of Magic token to your Tavern mat. While it is on your Tavern mat, you may play Curses during your Buy phase for $2 per Curse.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2016, 09:10:31 am »
0

Two Event ideas that came to me.
Excommunication [I've renamed the old Excommunication (see above) to Damnation, though still not settled on that]
Event    - $3
+1 Buy
Put this card on an Action supply pile. While this is on a supply pile, card from that pile cannot be played.

Book of Magic
Event    - $1
Move the Book of Magic token to your Tavern mat. While it is on your Tavern mat, you may play Curses during your Buy phase for $2 per Curse.


I don't like Excommunication. It's too much in-your-face and really crippling, especially with Villages, cantrips and Copper.

Copper is especially bad. If you go first, and have $5, you can buy Excommunication and Duchess, put the card on Copper and win by emptying the Estate, Duchess and Copper pile over years of agony. Also works with other openings and cards. You can fix the Copper thing by only putting it on kingdom or action cards, but honestly i think you'd be far better off with REWARDING yourself for other players playing a card. How about something like this:

Absolution, $3
Put your Absolution token on an action supply pile. When another player plays a card from that pile, take a coin token.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2016, 11:18:20 am »
0

Two Event ideas that came to me.
Excommunication [I've renamed the old Excommunication (see above) to Damnation, though still not settled on that]
Event    - $3
+1 Buy
Put this card on an Action supply pile. While this is on a supply pile, card from that pile cannot be played.

Book of Magic
Event    - $1
Move the Book of Magic token to your Tavern mat. While it is on your Tavern mat, you may play Curses during your Buy phase for $2 per Curse.


I don't like Excommunication. It's too much in-your-face and really crippling, especially with Villages, cantrips and Copper.

Copper is especially bad. If you go first, and have $5, you can buy Excommunication and Duchess, put the card on Copper and win by emptying the Estate, Duchess and Copper pile over years of agony. Also works with other openings and cards. You can fix the Copper thing by only putting it on kingdom or action cards, but honestly i think you'd be far better off with REWARDING yourself for other players playing a card. How about something like this:

Absolution, $3
Put your Absolution token on an action supply pile. When another player plays a card from that pile, take a coin token.
Your Copper comment doesn't make any sense. You didn't read the card properly; it is already limited to "Put this on an Action supply pile."
Also note it hurts all players, so choosing a village probably means you are opting for a different strategy altogether. I imagine its effects will be more like Embargo than anything else. Its mere presence discourages a strategy that if overly reliant on any one component. But it's effect on that card does not persist to game's end.

I do, however, like the Absolution idea. Not sure about coin tokens (mostly because I don't own a physical copy of Guilds!), but might consider something like that.

Also, I have no idea how these would be properly priced.

Mock-ups.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 11:19:49 am by GeneralRamos »
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2016, 01:04:39 pm »
0

Oops. Yes, i misread that.

Either way, obviously you don't need to buy Excommunication before somebody sets something up. You can buy it as soon as he has. There are a lot of engines that depend on one key action card to provide money and Excommunication will mean that those engines are unplayable. If you got yourself in a situation where your only source of money suddenly is dead, you can't afford Excommunication to return to normal. I assume it will push players towards just buying treasure cards, as those are unaffected.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2016, 03:18:49 pm »
0

I don't think it would push a Treasure-only strategy. But it would push a diversity-based or resilient strategy. Anyhow, on further reflection, I know you are right about it being too strong in its detrimental power. Here are some alternate versions that are less detrimental:
Version B:

Version C:


And drawing on your absolution idea, Charity (reusing name and art from the dropped Charity non-supply card above):

Price TBD?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 04:08:12 pm by GeneralRamos »
Logged

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2016, 06:00:08 pm »
+1

Another card idea that came to mind recently.

Inspired by Contraband. Instead of declaring what card you cannot buy, however, another player names an Action card and voids its abilities. This doesn't hinder another player from playing it (e.g., for the sake of variety for HoP), but it is only played as a dead card. Unlike contraband, no more than one card can be named per turn, so it can still be played multiple times for more Actions as needed without the fear of impairing the utility of +Action. Ultimately, this card discourages a strategy centered around one or two Action cards.

Aside from the Contraband effect, the first one played on a turn is essentially a Lost City. The draw power of subsequent ones depends of course on what Action cards are played in conjunction. This should maybe cost $5.
Logged

tristan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1138
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2016, 03:14:00 am »
0

Another card idea that came to mind recently.

Inspired by Contraband. Instead of declaring what card you cannot buy, however, another player names an Action card and voids its abilities. This doesn't hinder another player from playing it (e.g., for the sake of variety for HoP), but it is only played as a dead card. Unlike contraband, no more than one card can be named per turn, so it can still be played multiple times for more Actions as needed without the fear of impairing the utility of +Action. Ultimately, this card discourages a strategy centered around one or two Action cards.

Aside from the Contraband effect, the first one played on a turn is essentially a Lost City. The draw power of subsequent ones depends of course on what Action cards are played in conjunction. This should maybe cost $5.
This is a nice variation of Production Village. I'd test is with "if this is the first Monastery you played" as well as without that restriction.
Logged

Co0kieL0rd

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
  • Respect: +839
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2016, 05:53:22 pm »
0

I like the general idea of Monastery but the bottom effect is very, very bad for the player who plays Monastery, even worse than Contraband, I think. So the card should probably be even stronger. Also, there should be no dividing line. Currently, the moment you play your first Monastery, the other player can name Monastery and it immediately has no effect because the naming trigger comes in order before you resolve the Monastery. To prevent this, omit the dividing line so that another player naming a card is actually part of resolving the action (it should be anyway).
Logged
Check out my fan cards!
Dominion: Seasons - a small set Asper and I made that revolves around a unique and original mechanic
Roots and Renewal - this set is about interacting with the Supply and manipulating your opening turns
Flash cards - trying out a new concept

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1104
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +849
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2016, 11:55:09 pm »
0

Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2016, 11:03:11 am »
0

Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.
I have updated the OP, with a few notes. I can provide high-res images for anyone who want to print them out, and the TS template for anyone who wants to play with these cards (without me). Just PM me
Logged

Gubump

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
  • Respect: +178
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2016, 02:41:20 pm »
0

Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.
I have updated the OP, with a few notes. I can provide high-res images for anyone who want to print them out, and the TS template for anyone who wants to play with these cards (without me). Just PM me

Heretic and Blackmail still refer to Excommunication even though you renamed Excommunication to Damnation.
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his/her Dominion Card Image Generator.

GeneralRamos

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +104
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2016, 04:23:14 pm »
0

Could you update the OP with the current versions of the cards?  (or put them in a new post)
After our game, I plan to add several of them to my fan card collection to print and use IRL.
I have updated the OP, with a few notes. I can provide high-res images for anyone who want to print them out, and the TS template for anyone who wants to play with these cards (without me). Just PM me

Heretic and Blackmail still refer to Excommunication even though you renamed Excommunication to Damnation.
Thanks. I did fix that but loaded an old image. I'll try to update it later.
Logged

WQB

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
  • Shuffle iT Username: WQB
  • Respect: +33
    • View Profile
    • WQB Dominion
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2018, 06:35:25 am »
0

Charity costs nothing?
Logged

ThetaSigma12

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1564
  • Shuffle iT Username: ThetaSigma12
  • Respect: +1609
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2018, 08:34:56 am »
0

Charity costs nothing?

The cost was TBD. Seeing how long the thread has been dead, I doubt there will be one officially determined anytime soon.
Logged
If you have a fan card you want to be created, just post about it here! I'd love to take a look at it.

WQB

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
  • Shuffle iT Username: WQB
  • Respect: +33
    • View Profile
    • WQB Dominion
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2018, 01:49:14 pm »
0

Charity costs nothing?

The cost was TBD. Seeing how long the thread has been dead, I doubt there will be one officially determined anytime soon.

What does TBD mean?  :)
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4541
  • Respect: +4884
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2018, 04:49:55 pm »
+1

Charity costs nothing?

The cost was TBD. Seeing how long the thread has been dead, I doubt there will be one officially determined anytime soon.

What does TBD mean?  :)

"To be decided".
Not "To be denounced", as I used to think for some time...  ;D

WQB

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
  • Shuffle iT Username: WQB
  • Respect: +33
    • View Profile
    • WQB Dominion
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2018, 05:03:22 am »
0

Thanks!
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5458
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • luck is a glitch
  • Respect: +3406
    • View Profile
    • The Border Village
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2018, 10:43:03 am »
0

A lot of these cards seem niche and not very strong to me, and some cards just seem pretty darn good.

For example, I think I could consider going for a pure Deacon strategy. Like what's stopping me? I can gain VP forever, I can trash stuff, and I get to slow down my opponent too? Seems pretty busted, although I would want to play with it first to be sure.

Sinner's lines seem so needlessly complex, and honestly I would split it into two different cards for simplicity. Nun is stupid strong but having to buy a Province to get Nun when there's no alt-VP on the board seems like an exercise in futility. On the other hand, Heretic seems pretty bad.

Tithe is more interesting than on first glance, since it has sort of the opposite of the Raider effect, but if you ever have a Copper in play you're never afraid to play it.

Cloister seems rather high of a price point and I get it's like an eventually better than Duchy deal but I am prepared to say this card is mostly bad.

Holy See is something I would never buy except maybe in some end of shuffle niche case with a money board, in which case it is busted since it both scores and lets you province next turn.

I am not about to get Confessions by buying Duchies prematurely, so really Inquisition is a stupid strong Curser.

Blackmail is weird because it is so slow, I will basically never use the gain Treasure function except in a slog, and the attack only hits once every two shuffles so really this card is bad.

Crusade is really really really good.

Corvee is weird and weakish the longer the game goes on. Yeah, it has that duration function but they're essentially delayed draw and usually just worse than a Haunted Woods?

Scary pins are possible with Templar, but it will mostly not do much and with the guaranteed shuffle missing it's weak, although the plus buy tacked onto it forces people to play with it. I dunno, it's an interesting enough card but I can see it being really oppressive even with the "nerf". I mean think about this. Assume mega engine, you're happy to trigger the shuffle, and then boom all your templars are back. It's a scary oppressive card and I think I would ax it.

Synod is a busted Village. It can trigger some annoying shuffles but that's worth the damn consistency. You'll just never dud with this thing.

Yeah, still going to drive the Wedding pile into the ground despite the Lost City nerf.

I don't get Collection Plate. It seems really really bad.

Iconoclast seems like an exercise in futility, where people struggle to not get Cursed, and nothing about it seems simple or fun. Woohoo, a way to remove VP tokens, nobody is happy and it's a bad card to boot so you're not happy playing it.

Labyrinth is really niche, I would probably never buy it.

Monastery is an Action contraband, probably just as bad if not worse? Not sure on this card.

Indulgence is a weird way to score. If you get all 10 Indulgences you can tuck away 5 Curses and get 25 points, after which you start losing points. You might get it if there's Cursing on the board, but otherwise going for this alone is going to just get crushed against any normal engine? It has +buy, which will be the most important thing on it easily.

Black Mass is slow and bad. The Gold gain is sad and if the Black Mass misses the shuffle or you draw the Curse before Black Mass, tough luck. Assuming I even want to just get a Gold.

Iconographer seems really good. I would probably just open it every time I could.

Reliquary is a cute trasher and ends up being Forager but slightly worse.

Penance is cute if your engine has an extra buy, since you're just going to blow it up for points, but yeah this one doesn't excite me much at all, scoring points while trying to build is bad and keeping it around is even worse.

Sacrament is a crazy nice way to get to $6 or higher, way busted in the opening. Totally open this every time Inheritance is on the board.

Pardon is cute, I like it, mainly because it's a mostly bad Village but it cycles and stuff. Maybe the coolest card I've seen so far?

With Funeral, you play Funeral games where nobody wants to be the first guy to trash Funeral since there's no benefit. And it's a village to boot, so. Yeah, not too hot on this one, given nobody will want to blow them up ever.

Not sure what to think of Holy Vestment. It's really bad for a long time, and then if you get like 6 of them down it's fantastic, but hey, you spent tons of turns buying Copper and it's slowed your shuffles down. This card is really hard to gauge.

Widows and Orphans is busted in any decent engine.

Missal is interesting, might be cool.

Yeah, I understand Donald said the Confession type card is great but I'm not about to buy a Duchy just to have it. It's just a nice opener/Forum variant.

Damnation is an interesting card, I think I like the idea of a Super Curse.

Excommunication is going to lead to some degenerate games since it's Embargo+, and given Donald didn't make it already, it's probably incredibly oppressive. Not to say I hate the idea though, it would be interesting to try out.

Book of Spells is niche as all heck.

Charity is really really really good, you could price that sucker at $6 just to start off. Interesting idea too.
Logged
WOWIE I GUESS I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AROUND HERE
Join Dominion Discord

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1104
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +849
    • View Profile
Re: Holy Order
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2018, 08:09:15 pm »
+1

The ones of these I've used and liked are: Missal, Synod, Labyrinth, Wedding, Holy See (at $3 cost), and Cloister.

Synod is strong, but not quite as strong as Wandering Minstrel.

Cloister is great with trash for benefit.

Other cards from here that we tried out:
Black Mass: We didn't like it.
Accuser/Confession: I like my version of it, but I changed it significantly (including how to get Confessions).
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]
 

Page created in 0.261 seconds with 21 queries.