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[majiponi]

Band of Misfits text:
Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.
This is that card until it leaves play.

Treasure Map text:
Trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand.
If you do trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck.


Do I gain 4 Golds playing BoM as TM?
(BoM is TM when in play. It is not TM when in trash.)

[AdamH]

Yes, as long as the T-Map you reveal from your hand is a real T-Map, and not a BoM-as-T-Map.

[Davio]

This doesn't work the other way around obviously; when you play an actual TM, you have to reveal another actual TM, you can't at that point reveal BoM and suddenly call it a TM.

[GendoIkari]

Note that this does NOT work with Inherited Estates as Treasure Maps, because the Estates do not get the name "Treasure Map".

[majiponi]

The point is, when I ended the command of the first sentence, BoM and TM are in trash.
Did I actually trash "two TM"?

[Chris is me]

The point is, when I ended the command of the first sentence, BoM and TM are in trash.
Did I actually trash "two TM"?

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

[AdamH]

The point is, when I ended the command of the first sentence, BoM and TM are in trash.
Did I actually trash "two TM"?

Yes.

[chipperMDW]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Which, you must admit, is pretty weird, because other things in the game that check properties of trashed cards look at cards as they exist at the time the instruction is evaluated (which usually means as they exist in the trash).

E.g. Procession a BoM as a $2 card. Doesn't matter what it cost when you trashed it; you gain a $6 card because it's a $5 BoM in the trash. According to the Dark Ages rulebook.

I think the Treasure Map way (note what the card is at the moment of trashing) makes more sense, but it's not consistent with the way other things work, so it's understandable why there'd be questions.

[markusin]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Which, you must admit, is pretty weird, because other things in the game that check properties of trashed cards look at cards as they exist at the time the instruction is evaluated (which usually means as they exist in the trash).

E.g. Procession a BoM as a $2 card. Doesn't matter what it cost when you trashed it; you gain a $6 card because it's a $5 BoM in the trash. According to the Dark Ages rulebook.

I think the Treasure Map way (note what the card is at the moment of trashing) makes more sense, but it's not consistent with the way other things work, so it's understandable why there'd be questions.

Similarly, playing BoM as Fortress with Procession makes the BoM go to your hand, and you still gain a $6-cost action. Procession refers to "it" when checking for the card cost, so I agree that it comes off as unclear and inconsistent depending on the interpretation.

[GendoIkari]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Which, you must admit, is pretty weird, because other things in the game that check properties of trashed cards look at cards as they exist at the time the instruction is evaluated (which usually means as they exist in the trash).

E.g. Procession a BoM as a $2 card. Doesn't matter what it cost when you trashed it; you gain a $6 card because it's a $5 BoM in the trash. According to the Dark Ages rulebook.

I think the Treasure Map way (note what the card is at the moment of trashing) makes more sense, but it's not consistent with the way other things work, so it's understandable why there'd be questions.

I think it's consistent. One is asking "did you trash X". The other is asking "Is the trashed card X".

If Treasure Map said "If you did trash 2 cards, and they are both Treasure Maps" instead if "If you did trash 2 Treasure Maps", then it would fail.

Similarly, if Procession said "if you trash a card costing , gain a card costing . If you trash a card costing , gain a card costing , ..." then you would gain a card costing 1 more than the card BoM was at the time."

[Kirian]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Which, you must admit, is pretty weird, because other things in the game that check properties of trashed cards look at cards as they exist at the time the instruction is evaluated (which usually means as they exist in the trash).

E.g. Procession a BoM as a $2 card. Doesn't matter what it cost when you trashed it; you gain a $6 card because it's a $5 BoM in the trash. According to the Dark Ages rulebook.

I think the Treasure Map way (note what the card is at the moment of trashing) makes more sense, but it's not consistent with the way other things work, so it's understandable why there'd be questions.

It's definitely a blue dog problem.

[majiponi]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Where is the difference from? Do/did?
What is trashing? Removing from play to send trash, or the all process of sending?

[Davio]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Which, you must admit, is pretty weird, because other things in the game that check properties of trashed cards look at cards as they exist at the time the instruction is evaluated (which usually means as they exist in the trash).

E.g. Procession a BoM as a $2 card. Doesn't matter what it cost when you trashed it; you gain a $6 card because it's a $5 BoM in the trash. According to the Dark Ages rulebook.

I think the Treasure Map way (note what the card is at the moment of trashing) makes more sense, but it's not consistent with the way other things work, so it's understandable why there'd be questions.

It's definitely a blue dog problem.

No, it's quite obvious, Procession closes the loop at the end.

1. You may play an Action card from your hand twice -> BoM
1b. BoM = Hamlet
2. Trash it (the Hamlet)
2b. BoM has left play, is now BoM again
3. Gain an action card costing exactly $1 more than it (which is now BoM again)

So the it at #2 refers to Hamlet, but the it at #3 refers to BoM.

That's why you can play BoM as Mining Village, get $2 from trashing it and still get a $6 card.

[Asper]

The card doesn't check what cards are in the trash, it cares what the cards you trashed were. When you trashed BoM, it was a Treasure Map, so it counts.

Which, you must admit, is pretty weird, because other things in the game that check properties of trashed cards look at cards as they exist at the time the instruction is evaluated (which usually means as they exist in the trash).

E.g. Procession a BoM as a $2 card. Doesn't matter what it cost when you trashed it; you gain a $6 card because it's a $5 BoM in the trash. According to the Dark Ages rulebook.

I think the Treasure Map way (note what the card is at the moment of trashing) makes more sense, but it's not consistent with the way other things work, so it's understandable why there'd be questions.

I think it's consistent. One is asking "did you trash X". The other is asking "Is the trashed card X".

If Treasure Map said "If you did trash 2 cards, and they are both Treasure Maps" instead if "If you did trash 2 Treasure Maps", then it would fail.

Similarly, if Procession said "if you trash a card costing , gain a card costing . If you trash a card costing , gain a card costing , ..." then you would gain a card costing 1 more than the card BoM was at the time."

Seriously? "The trashed card" can easily refer to the card you did the trashing to. So can "it" on Procession. It's not like if i tell you about the cake i ate, i am necessarily talking about the half-digested mass inside my stomach, you know. Donald just decided he wanted this meaning, but there's absolutely no forcing reason why it couldn't mean the exact opposite. And the exact opposite makes a lot more sense in my opinion, as it is not only consistent with BM/Treasure Map, but also avoids the weird "Lose track applies to moving but not to looking" thing and feels far more natural with things like Transmute/Estate.

[Davio]

It depends on whether you actually ate cake, or something that looked like cake until you were done eating it.

[Accatitippi]

It depends on whether you actually ate cake, or something that looked like cake until you were done eating it.

That's usually how cake behaves, though.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think Asper's point is that if I ask "What did you eat?", the answer is clearly "cake"; but if I ask "What is the thing that you ate?", well, most normal people would answer "cake" still, but a logician might answer "a half-digested mass" (because the question is asking about the current state of the thing that you ate).  That being said, Dominion tends to follow a strictly literal reading of the words whenever something is questionable, so if a Dominion card depended on your answer to that question, you would probably have to answer "a half-digested mass".  So I think Gendo's explanation is correct, but I can understand why it wouldn't be obvious.

[Asper]

I think Asper's point is that if I ask "What did you eat?", the answer is clearly "cake"; but if I ask "What is the thing that you ate?", well, most normal people would answer "cake" still, but a logician might answer "a half-digested mass" (because the question is asking about the current state of the thing that you ate).  That being said, Dominion tends to follow a strictly literal reading of the words whenever something is questionable, so if a Dominion card depended on your answer to that question, you would probably have to answer "a half-digested mass".  So I think Gendo's explanation is correct, but I can understand why it wouldn't be obvious.

As somebody who studies logic (as part of something else), i would argue that standard language cannot as used in Dominion does not make the difference clear. A sentence like "Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card." does not make clear what exactly "the trashed card" is. Is it "the card that the card that WAS trashed IS now"? Or is it "the card that was trashed"? For cards like Fortress for example, there is no card in the trash. The card that was trashed costed $4, but the card that is in the trash now doesn't exist. If we accept that for "the trashed card", "trashed" is not a qualifier, but an expression of a past event, we are spared of all cases where cards just morph on their way to the trash, and are still consistent. Actually, i think it's inconsistent the other way. Treasure Map is just an example where this inconsistency shows.

[Donald X.]

Treasure Map should say "did" to be clearer that it wants to look at the past.

Other cards look at the current state of a card to avoid tracking.

[majiponi]

Treasure Map should say "did" to be clearer that it wants to look at the past.

Other cards look at the current state of a card to avoid tracking.

Thanks for your explanation.