Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Alchemist Distraction  (Read 3514 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1276
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1308
    • View Profile
Alchemist Distraction
« on: December 13, 2015, 05:18:42 pm »
+1



Code: [Select]
Native Village, Masquerade, Alchemist, Conspirator, Ironmonger, Island, Scout, Bazaar, Mystic, Tribute
Some great cards on this board.  Alchemist, Masquerade, Ironmonger, Conspirator, Scout.  Err....not Scout.  Anyway, what is the best strategy here?  When Adam does his videos he always goes through and talks about all the various aspects of the game.  You know, actions, draw, trashing, buys.  This board has great actions, great draw, great trashing, but no buys. 

So what does this mean?  It means you have to start greening at a point where you can consistently get provinces and you don't stall out.  Consistency is key.  So you go for Alchemist because you can draw your deck consistently, right?  Wrong.  I mean, it is usually right, and it is the gut instinct to do that, but look at what else you have.  Masquerade.  Bazaar.  Ironmonger.  Without that plus buy, taking the extra time to buy the potion just delays you too much.  Also, potions and alchemists don't give you any economy. 

That is exactly what played out in the game I just played.  My opponent went for alchemist almost automatically.  He began to build his deck and even got the first province before I did (probably because he saw what was coming).  But his deck lacked economy.  He was able to get 3 alchemists before greening, but only had coppers and didn't have the buying power necessary.  My deck had two golds, two masquerades, 2 bazaars, and an ironmonger.  Not the incredible engine, but enough to consistently (ok, I had to buy one island on T12) buy provinces to finish the game piling provinces on T13.

game log
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +2702
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2015, 05:27:41 pm »
0

I'm definitely guilty of going for Alchemist almost automatically. I used to see it as very strong, then as a trap card because it takes a while to build to critical mass, then back around to very strong because a Lab you can sometimes topdeck is still really good.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about early Island here? On $5 Bazaar is probably better, so you never have a good turn for it, but it feels like picking up an Island early could be good here. It's not a Silver or Ironmonger, but it is pseudo-trashing that's worth points, and Ironmonger revealing Island can make it hurt less. (I like 1 early Island on money-ish boards, but I'm not sure if this is actually good play or not. It's hard to see how much that Island helps.)

The only part that gives me pause is Masquerade, with Masq trashing it may not be worth the detour.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4071
  • Respect: +2611
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2015, 05:47:05 pm »
0

The only part that gives me pause is Masquerade, with Masq trashing it may not be worth the detour.

Exactly.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2476
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2015, 10:31:49 pm »
+1

Masquerade is also a nice soft-counter to Alchemist in general. If they are topdecking 3+ of them a turn, eventually they will have to pass you one.
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1340
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2015, 11:48:18 pm »
0

WTF!!! 'Erm...not Scout?' You can use Scout to draw Islands, and there is SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION. I know 2.7 is supposed to be really good at Dominion, but I feel like he really misplayed this board.
You can also use Scout to reorganize your cards to decide what Ironmonger hits! This is some real bull! 10/10 would not read again. Now I feel like I have to take action. It's time for a movement. People are auto-ignoring Scout? This is crazy. Who does that??

And, if you really don't like Scout here, buy it to pass to your opponent. They'll be forced to resign. I think saying things like this is why I get put on people's 'ignore' list.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 11:56:10 pm by Roadrunner7671 »
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1276
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1308
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2015, 12:16:30 am »
+1

WTF!!! 'Erm...not Scout?'

1) "Err..." not "Erm...."
2) yes, I added that bit for your benefit
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2015, 03:07:02 am »
+1

My gut instinct is never Alchemist, I generally only like it with +Buy or in slogs.

Here my gut instinct would be Masquerade, Ironmonger, Conspirator.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11235
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11901
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2015, 05:03:50 am »
0

SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

iguanaiguana

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • Respect: +1042
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2015, 09:35:46 am »
+1

SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
Logged
You are my favorite reptile.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.
All iguanas are equal. But some iguanas are more equal than others.

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1340
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2015, 11:55:35 am »
0

SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
We can do this again. I'm okay with that.
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7092
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9371
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2015, 12:25:56 pm »
0

My gut instinct is never Alchemist, I generally only like it with +Buy or in slogs.

Here my gut instinct would be Masquerade, Ironmonger, Conspirator.

Right.  Without +Buy, Alchemist is a bit of a dud.  Once you have a couple, you end up spending $6P buying more, and then you're still only buying one card per turn later.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1712
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2015, 02:17:10 pm »
0

Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Herald, and Fool's Gold (and there's probably more that I'm forgetting) are cards that I used to instantly think "OMG HOW CAN I GRAB AS MANY OF THOSE AS POSSIBLE??"  But I've since trained myself to take a step back and ask if that's really right or not.  In the case of this board, I definitely think Alchemist is wrong.  I see Masq / BM.  Bazaar on 5, maybe, so that you could potentially play 2 Masqs per turn.  But in all honesty, it's probably just Masq, Golds, Silvers, and maybe an Island or 2 throughout the course of the game (similar to what you did).
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3796
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2347
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2015, 02:24:53 pm »
+2

SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
We can do this again. I'm okay with that.

Scout + Mystic can be quite fine depending on the board, but without +buy it just looks too slow here. At best you can only buy one Province a turn, and Masquerade-centric strategies are just going to outrace Scout + Mystic, similar to how it Outraces Alchemist here.
Logged

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2573
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3543
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2015, 07:14:00 pm »
0

SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

While this is misrepresenting the power of Scout/Mystic (it's not great, but it can work), Ironmonger definitely beats the hell out of Scout as a Mystic enabler here. And Conspirator>Mystic for the most part. Though all that cutesy stuff will not do much here without +buy.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1340
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2015, 07:22:58 pm »
0

Is there some AI machine that tells you how many Provinces you can get in how many turns for different things? Like Thief BM vs. Moat BM?
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2476
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2015, 09:04:06 pm »
0

Alchemist, Scrying Pool, Herald, and Fool's Gold (and there's probably more that I'm forgetting) are cards that I used to instantly think "OMG HOW CAN I GRAB AS MANY OF THOSE AS POSSIBLE??"  But I've since trained myself to take a step back and ask if that's really right or not.
Your attitude was pretty much right for Scrying Pool.
Logged

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1687
  • Respect: +1152
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 01:40:31 am »
0

SCOUT MYSTIC! THAT'S THE SECOND STRONGEST COMBO IN DOMINION.

Oh yeah, if you have 4 Mystics in your hand, Scout is very slightly better than nothing. With 3 Mystics, it's roughly as good as nothing. With less than 3 Mystics, it's worse than nothing. A great combo indeed.

Let's not have this conversation for a third time in as many months.
We can do this again. I'm okay with that.
To be fair, I have been pretty busy since June so I missed all that...

Also, looking at this board, I would be tempted to use Masquerade and Tribute to mess with my opponent.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:44:12 am by enfynet »
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11235
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11901
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2015, 08:33:15 am »
0

While this is misrepresenting the power of Scout/Mystic (it's not great, but it can work), Ironmonger definitely beats the hell out of Scout as a Mystic enabler here. And Conspirator>Mystic for the most part. Though all that cutesy stuff will not do much here without +buy.

Well, sure, it can work if your Scout enables 4 Mystics every time you play it. Otherwise it really doesn't work.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2015, 09:48:00 am »
0

Your Scout can also reveal 4 Mystics with none in your hand.  ::)
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3796
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2347
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2015, 10:15:46 am »
+2

Your Scout can also reveal 4 Mystics with none in your hand.  ::)

But if it does that when you have just one Mystic in hand then boom, that's +$10 right there.
Logged

Infthitbox

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • Respect: +439
    • View Profile
Re: Alchemist Distraction
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2015, 10:38:21 am »
0


That is exactly what played out in the game I just played.  My opponent went for alchemist almost automatically.  He began to build his deck and even got the first province before I did (probably because he saw what was coming).  But his deck lacked economy.  He was able to get 3 alchemists before greening, but only had coppers and didn't have the buying power necessary.  My deck had two golds, two masquerades, 2 bazaars, and an ironmonger.  Not the incredible engine, but enough to consistently (ok, I had to buy one island on T12) buy provinces to finish the game piling provinces on T13.

I'm curious as to how this game might play out if your opponent doesn't trash those coppers on his turns 8,9,10. He (wlog?) had the economy to buy provinces, and then deliberately loses the ability to do that by trashing the coppers. Admittedly, he would need to be very fortunate to continue to draw his deck once he started greening, but to start greening, and then remove his own ability to do so, is quite bizarre. If he had picked up an Island with the plan of opportunistically getting those Provinces out of his deck while keeping his economy intact, he might have had more of a chance.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.098 seconds with 21 queries.