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[Davio]

I don't know, I watched a lot of Doctor Who and it's messing with my brain.

[teamrocketgrunt]

+ 1 for tying it to the butterfly again. In style. The OP will be so happy!

[Haddock]

Thief of Time.  That's the one.

[markusin]

And here's the kicker: You could also be the sole reason that everything ended up the way it did. Maybe you were planning to kill Hitler, but missed and instead killed an assassin trying to kill Hitler, making you the reason the Holocaust happened?

This is this:

Well, actually, just the fact that you were able to time-travel proves he could not have been related to you OR (and that is way more likely) you were only conceived because you bumped your own great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and thusly triggered the exact genetic chain that allowed you to time-travel in the first place.

Time-traveller rule #1 (revised): Bump whoever you like. It's only time travel.

The philosophy I subscribe to is this exact one.  Otherwise put:  If you try to change history through time travel, you will inevitable fail - you already have failed.

Donald explained why "Back to the Future"-esque time travel would have everything changed just by stepping foot in the past for a brief moment to divert wins currents and such. Butterfly effect and whatnot (hah, connected this with the OP).

What you're talking about is " Harry Potter 3"-esque time travel, which is sort of a paradox. I don't like that interpretation of time travel either.

Maybe you can time travel to an alternate timeline (or instantly create an alternate timeline) where your existence is not at all tied to the events of the timeline you've travelled to.

[AdamH]

I wonder how Adam feels right now...

Thanks for asking! <3

I've been really congested this past week, this kind of weather where the barometer doesn't want to make up its mind is kind of rough on my allergies. On the other hand, I worked a bunch of overtime recently at work and now I get to have a three-day weekend. I've caught up on a lot of sleep debt and I'm looking forward to getting more.

Also I got this weird loaf of bread from the reduced bakery at Jungle Jim's, it's got like a billion different types of grains in it. I just tried it for the first time and it was delicious.

Oh yeah, and I'm somehow on a group text for a game of Twilight Imperium 3 (or Starcraft, depending on how many people show up). While I appreciate the thought, it is a group text, and these people aren't shy about texting at 2AM on a group text. That was fun. Also, I'd rather die than play either of those games.

I'm also quite amused at all of this speculation about time travel -- so many people seem so sure of their opinions when really nobody has any idea whatsoever what would actually happen and probably nobody ever will <3

[pacovf]

Well, as far as I know, there are only two types of time travel that are self-consistent: alternate timelines, and closed timeloops. I find the former unsatisfying, because you aren't really travelling to your past (and because, functionally, it leads to your disappearance from the original timeline), and most stories with the latter are poorly executed. If anybody knows of anything else, I am all ears!

...I once tried to write down the rules for some sort of quantum superposition of timelines that would allow an approximation of Back-to-the-Future-style time travel that was still self-consistent, but never quite managed to finish.

Yes I am a nerd.

[Haddock]

Butterfly effect and whatnot (hah, connected this with the OP).

I ninja'd that on page 1, I'm afraid, no credit to you.

Oh go on then, +1.

[teamrocketgrunt]

I'm also quite amused at all of this speculation about time travel -- so many people seem so sure of their opinions when really nobody has any idea whatsoever what would actually happen and probably nobody ever will <3

I think you missed circling back to your original post, wrapping up this discussion about time-travel and putting a bow on it. It's the "Summon" question, isn't it? Is the lady summoning the butterfly or is it the other way around? I feel very content knowing that it's possible to qualify this whole spiralling thread as somewhat thematic on a very meta-level.

[Kirian]

My favorite time travel universe is the Fire Watch universe of Connie Willis.  That one is self-consistent; not only can you not change the past, you can't get near places where you might be able to change the past.  Try to visit Hitler in 1939, and you end up in Siberia in 1942.  Try to get near Waterloo, and you end up visiting with Chief Seattle.

You also can't bring anything back with you.  The one time someone does, the entire universe warps itself in tiny ways to reset things.

Now, you can say that predestination makes free will an illusion, but since you don't know your own future, what's the difference?  Are you going to sit on your ass and do nothing because you have 9nly illusory free will?  Sounds pretty boring.

[jamfamsam]

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the best proof that time travel isn't possible is that nobody from the future has ever shown up.

[eHalcyon]

This new line of discussion is making a pretty big assumption about how time travel works.  Who's to say your set timeline is how it actually works? Sci-fi is full of different self-consistent time travel ideas.

Bringing the thread full circle -- you take for granted that the lady is summoning a butterfly, but you don't know for sure.  Maybe it's a magical, colourful moth summoning a woman.  Maybe the summoner is not actually depicted at all and both woman and bug are the summoned!

[enfynet]

Well, eventually I will Summon my card from BGG. In that case, I can buy Summon for $3 and gain a card that costs $5.

[DoomYoshi]

This seems like a great place to post my personal ad:

There's a cafe a few towns over that plays diddily-dee Irish music on every other Wednesday. I will drink espresso, you can have local craft beers. Afterwards, we will go to a hockey game. I claim it's important, since you are visiting Canada. You say "we aren't in Canada, we are in Siberia". I realize you are right. This has been a dream all along. Now, quick, we must escape the beet army. Except you aren't you anymore, but a parallel timeline version of me. It seems I was at the wellspring of my life. The Butterfly Effect was a lie all along! Time travel is permissive, the great man theory of history holds. As long as you don't kill Napoleon or someone, you can do whatever you want. While at the wellspring, I made every mother and grandmother in my family tree a bit more ... eager. I ended up being born 130 years earlier. Now our date is impossible, as I am stuck at the Industrial Revolution and you are stuck at the Global Civil War. I leave this message in a bottle, hoping you will find it. Then you wake up... I am the man of your dreams.

[Davio]

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the best proof that time travel isn't possible is that nobody from the future has ever shown up.

We obviously don't know for sure.

There could be many time refugees living among us, having jumped back right at the moment the apocalypse began and it may be that they know they should not reveal themselves.
Let's say there was a modern day Pompeii (and even though we have time travel, we can't predict when a volcano will explode) and the entire population just jumped to a random destination to escape.

The census in a lot of countries isn't really accurate, so I'm pretty sure no-one would notice if 10,000 extra people were suddenly added to the Chinese population, that's only a 0.0007% increase for them. They could go live off in some remote village, plow fields, keep some cattle and just live out their lives. It becomes more interesting when they start reproducing...

[pacovf]

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said that the best proof that time travel isn't possible is that nobody from the future has ever shown up.

We could have a type of time travel that doesn't allow time travel to a time before the invention of time travel / construction of the device / etc.

This new line of discussion is making a pretty big assumption about how time travel works.  Who's to say your set timeline is how it actually works? Sci-fi is full of different self-consistent time travel ideas.

Do you have any examples of self-consistent time travel that doesn't boil down to either alternate timelines or closed time-loops? I'm interested!

[eHalcyon]

This new line of discussion is making a pretty big assumption about how time travel works.  Who's to say your set timeline is how it actually works? Sci-fi is full of different self-consistent time travel ideas.

Do you have any examples of self-consistent time travel that doesn't boil down to either alternate timelines or closed time-loops? I'm interested!

Nothing specific.  Maybe it does all boil down to those two.  I'm just saying that the closed time-loop isn't the only possibility.

[iguanaiguana]

Guys, I just looked at the news and Hitler never existed! Someone did it!

Do you think it was one of us?

[eHalcyon]

Guys, I just looked at the news and Hitler never existed! Someone did it!

Do you think it was one of us?

Who's that now?

What kind of news do you read or watch that reports on something not having happened?

[Kirian]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

[Roadrunner7671]

What kind of news do you read or watch that reports on something not having happened?

The Onion!

[Donald X.]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

http://www.viruscomix.com/page382.html

[Donald X.]

My favorite time travel universe is the Fire Watch universe of Connie Willis.  That one is self-consistent; not only can you not change the past, you can't get near places where you might be able to change the past.  Try to visit Hitler in 1939, and you end up in Siberia in 1942.  Try to get near Waterloo, and you end up visiting with Chief Seattle.

I in turn will recommend The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers. It does have some poems that no-one wrote, but that's just because that's cool.

[markusin]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2920

http://www.viruscomix.com/page382.html

And back go SMBC:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3266

[AdamH]

Well, as far as I know, there are only two types of time travel that are self-consistent: alternate timelines, and closed timeloops. I find the former unsatisfying, because you aren't really travelling to your past (and because, functionally, it leads to your disappearance from the original timeline), and most stories with the latter are poorly executed. If anybody knows of anything else, I am all ears!

You should watch the movie "Los Cronocrimenes". It's a Spanish film and it is excellent with the internally consistent closed time loop.

*This post brought to you by not-Adam.

[LastFootnote]

You should watch the movie "Los Cronocrimenes". It's a Spanish film and it is excellent with the internally consistent closed time loop.

*This post brought to you by not-Adam.

I second this. Great movie. It's English name is "Timecrimes".