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Author Topic: Waiting for Adventures On-line  (Read 69939 times)

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cactus

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Waiting for Adventures On-line
« on: December 08, 2015, 01:48:24 pm »
+5

This is the latest from Developer Jeff on the MF forums:

"The end of January was our guess two months ago, before we ran into so much trouble releasing the tablet version (getting it working on low-memory devices and redesigning for Apple approval on iOS.) We certainly won't be into testing of Adventures until February. As I've written in another post, our prior focus was the tablet release; the new focus is Adventures. So the good news is that it's our new top priority and we're starting serious work on it."

So we could still be waiting a fair while I'd say ...

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2015, 04:38:10 pm »
0

I do hope they fix up the tablet version to be relatively bug free and provide offline play for bots at some point.

That said, implementing Adventures is bound to bring them some additional revenue. I know I'd be willing to play $15-20 for Adventures online baring some announcement that Dominion Online will close in the near future.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 06:07:36 pm »
0

I do hope they fix up the tablet version to be relatively bug free and provide offline play for bots at some point.

MF CEO quote from BGG (link)

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

Bad news for you and many others. :(
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markusin

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 06:50:00 pm »
0

I do hope they fix up the tablet version to be relatively bug free and provide offline play for bots at some point.

MF CEO quote from BGG (link)

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

Bad news for you and many others. :(

Bad news for me in the sense that this worsens their success on the market. I don't have a tablet, but I don't want them to go bankrupt or anything making us lose Dominion Online.
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Kirian

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 07:35:40 pm »
+5

I do hope they fix up the tablet version to be relatively bug free and provide offline play for bots at some point.

MF CEO quote from BGG (link)

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

Bad news for you and many others. :(

Bad news for me in the sense that this worsens their success on the market. I don't have a tablet, but I don't want them to go bankrupt or anything making us lose Dominion Online.

On the other hand, there are tons of people who would be just fine with them going bankrupt.
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werothegreat

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 07:43:00 pm »
+1

I do hope they fix up the tablet version to be relatively bug free and provide offline play for bots at some point.

MF CEO quote from BGG (link)

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

Bad news for you and many others. :(

Bad news for me in the sense that this worsens their success on the market. I don't have a tablet, but I don't want them to go bankrupt or anything making us lose Dominion Online.

On the other hand, there are tons of people who would be just fine with them going bankrupt.

The company making Dominion already went bankrupt.  We're now on the second company, remember?
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 07:46:44 pm »
+7

Rio Grande went bankrupt!?
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markusin

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 08:57:19 pm »
0

I do hope they fix up the tablet version to be relatively bug free and provide offline play for bots at some point.

MF CEO quote from BGG (link)

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

Bad news for you and many others. :(

Bad news for me in the sense that this worsens their success on the market. I don't have a tablet, but I don't want them to go bankrupt or anything making us lose Dominion Online.

On the other hand, there are tons of people who would be just fine with them going bankrupt.

The company making Dominion already went bankrupt.  We're now on the second company, remember?

Yeah them going bankrupt would just mean the license for Dominion would be in a sort of limbo unless someone picks it up again. I imagine most companies would stay away from it after two companies failed. A company that does pick it up might again be inexperienced and the cycle would continue.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2015, 12:34:47 am »
0

Yeah them going bankrupt would just mean the license for Dominion would be in a sort of limbo unless someone picks it up again. I imagine most companies would stay away from it after two companies failed. A company that does pick it up might again be inexperienced and the cycle would continue.

If Making Fun does somehow fail completely, I hope that Rio Grande is willing to separate the PC version(s) from the mobile version(s). The mobile license can go to some company that is experienced in making mobile adaptations of board games. And either the PC license can go to a similar PC game-making company, or—if nobody wants that license—unofficial versions like isotropic can happen.
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 01:40:16 am »
+9


Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

It's not OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet.  Ascension sucks.
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SCSN

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 01:53:21 am »
+7

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

It's not OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet.  Ascension sucks.

I've never played Ascension, but this is the only proper response of a true Dominion believer. That MF guy is sprouting blasphemic nonsense and should, according to custom, be burned on the stakes.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2015, 01:58:45 am »
+7

Ascension is much better suited to AI play, though.  An AI can make mostly random purchases and still be a formidable opponent.

That doesn't say much for Ascension though.
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2015, 02:05:18 am »
+3

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

It's not OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet.  Ascension sucks.

I've never played Ascension, but this is the only proper response of a true Dominion believer. That MF guy is sprouting blasphemic nonsense and should, according to custom, be burned on the stakes.

Ascension suffers from a common problem with deck-builders, and one which Donald X has stated multiple times he purposely avoided.  Namely, the mechanic is based around a pool of available cards, which are replaced with new cards from the top of a face-down deck when they are bought.  I have rarely known this not to lead to major suck.  (Shadowrun Crossfire gets away with this, because cooperative).

The game has other flaws, and a few charms too, but overall, does not compare to Dominion.  Not even close.

I don't know why I care though.  I usually have internet so offline play is not a priority for me.  That's what books are for.  I guess it just offends me every time I hear someone say Ascension is as good as/better than Dominion.  Yeah, that's definitely it.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2015, 07:56:16 am »
+4

Quote
The architecture was designed with a focus on online play, not offline or pass-n-play. Personally, I'd love offline play. It may happen at some point. But it doesn't make sense right now for the business. [...] So, offline won't happen any time soon. You know what? It is OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet, ...

It's not OK to play Ascension when you don't have internet.  Ascension sucks.

I've never played Ascension, but this is the only proper response of a true Dominion believer. That MF guy is sprouting blasphemic nonsense and should, according to custom, be burned on the stakes.

Yeah seriously though, if there's any one statement that shows how out of touch MF is with the Dominion community, it's definitely "Don't like it? Then maybe you should play Ascension!" Makes my blood boil.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 11:21:40 am »
+6

Ascension suffers from a common problem with deck-builders, and one which Donald X has stated multiple times he purposely avoided.  Namely, the mechanic is based around a pool of available cards, which are replaced with new cards from the top of a face-down deck when they are bought.  I have rarely known this not to lead to major suck.

You know what I just now realized? Splendor, which is a terrific game, has this same mechanic. It's not quite a deck builder, but actually it is in some ways. The cards you buy get added to your collection of cards, which you can then use to buy more stuff. And one of the main tactical elements is knowing when not to buy available cards, because you don't want to flip over a new card for your opponent that might be the one you've both been looking for.

Ascension, which I do not think is a good game, has this same tactical element. There's lots of cards that let you control how many new cards are revealed from the center, and you want to use them wisely to avoid your opponent getting access to the better cards.

So I don't think that mechanic is automatically bad. It's just very different from the idea of Dominion, in which one of the best parts is the equal-access that everyone has.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2015, 12:43:09 pm »
+3

Splendor is an average game, not a terrific game.  You can explain the rules in 2 minutes and you get somewhere better than candyland after you're done explaining which has made Splendor a pretty big deal.  I've played 5000 games of Dominion but after my second game of Splendor I'm not sure I'll remain interested enough for a 5th, and there is surely not enough there for a 50th.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2015, 12:44:15 pm »
+7

This is the latest from Developer Jeff on the MF forums:

"The end of January was our guess two months ago, before we ran into so much trouble releasing the tablet version (getting it working on low-memory devices and redesigning for Apple approval on iOS.) We certainly won't be into testing of Adventures until February. As I've written in another post, our prior focus was the tablet release; the new focus is Adventures. So the good news is that it's our new top priority and we're starting serious work on it."

So we could still be waiting a fair while I'd say ...

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2015, 01:02:45 pm »
+2

Splendor is an average game, not a terrific game.  You can explain the rules in 2 minutes and you get somewhere better than candyland after you're done explaining which has made Splendor a pretty big deal.  I've played 5000 games of Dominion but after my second game of Splendor I'm not sure I'll remain interested enough for a 5th, and there is surely not enough there for a 50th.

Splendor is pretty good. I've played more than 10 games (but probably not 50) and I haven't had too much of it yet.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2015, 01:04:09 pm »
+1

Splendor is an average game, not a terrific game.  You can explain the rules in 2 minutes and you get somewhere better than candyland after you're done explaining which has made Splendor a pretty big deal.  I've played 5000 games of Dominion but after my second game of Splendor I'm not sure I'll remain interested enough for a 5th, and there is surely not enough there for a 50th.

Splendor is pretty good. I've played more than 10 games (but probably not 50) and I haven't had too much of it yet.

I'm also somewhere between 10 and 50. My playgroup is pretty much always up for it.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2015, 02:13:53 pm »
+1

Ascension suffers from a common problem with deck-builders, and one which Donald X has stated multiple times he purposely avoided.  Namely, the mechanic is based around a pool of available cards, which are replaced with new cards from the top of a face-down deck when they are bought.  I have rarely known this not to lead to major suck.

You know what I just now realized? Splendor, which is a terrific game, has this same mechanic. It's not quite a deck builder, but actually it is in some ways. The cards you buy get added to your collection of cards, which you can then use to buy more stuff. And one of the main tactical elements is knowing when not to buy available cards, because you don't want to flip over a new card for your opponent that might be the one you've both been looking for.

Ascension, which I do not think is a good game, has this same tactical element. There's lots of cards that let you control how many new cards are revealed from the center, and you want to use them wisely to avoid your opponent getting access to the better cards.

So I don't think that mechanic is automatically bad. It's just very different from the idea of Dominion, in which one of the best parts is the equal-access that everyone has.

Well, Splendor goes to great lengths to ensure that there are cards of varying values on offer at all times (by essentially having three different markets). Also, Splendor is a somewhat tactical game of point salading (nothing wrong with that), while Ascension (and Dominion) are games of infrastructure building, and there the unfair market hurts a lot, since advantages tend to grow exponentially, and asymmetries are far more prominent.

And thinking about that, there's also the fact that inefficient point sources and engine pieces hurt you much more in a deck builder than in a "regular" scoretrack game.

So yeah, mechanic is not broken (and it's as common as copper), but Ascension implements it badly to say the least.
(another example that makes it work is Power Grid, with the future/current market)
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2015, 02:50:08 pm »
+1

point salading

That's a new one for me.  For anyone in the same boat, it's a (not terribly flattering, hence Accatitippi's disclaimer) term for games in which each turn you have lots of options, but you're going to score points whatever you do.  This means you can have games where people do wildly different things and still you have no real idea of who is winning until you count up.

BGG is unable to agree whether any particular game actually counts as point salad, with the possible exception of Castles of Burgundy and Chess.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2015, 03:29:46 pm »
+2

point salading

That's a new one for me.  For anyone in the same boat, it's a (not terribly flattering, hence Accatitippi's disclaimer) term for games in which each turn you have lots of options, but you're going to score points whatever you do.  This means you can have games where people do wildly different things and still you have no real idea of who is winning until you count up.

BGG is unable to agree whether any particular game actually counts as point salad, with the possible exception of Castles of Burgundy and Chess.

I would not call Splendor a Point Salad in any way. There are only two ways to score points, there are lots of actions you can take that don't score you points, and the game ends as soon as someone crosses a certain VP threshold, so there's no counting up of points after the game ends.

Most (maybe all) games by Stefan Feld are Point Salad games. Perhaps coincidentally, I hate Feld's games.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2015, 03:39:09 pm »
+1

point salading

That's a new one for me.  For anyone in the same boat, it's a (not terribly flattering, hence Accatitippi's disclaimer) term for games in which each turn you have lots of options, but you're going to score points whatever you do.  This means you can have games where people do wildly different things and still you have no real idea of who is winning until you count up.

BGG is unable to agree whether any particular game actually counts as point salad, with the possible exception of Castles of Burgundy and Chess.

Pretty much what I meant, yes. I usually use it to describe tactical games with no infrastructure-building phase, in which from the beginning you're trying to maximize your point revenue and "only" have to choose in what form you would like your points to come (small chunks white, incremental green, leviathan blue, interactive red, boring purple...).
Examples could be Carcassonne or Bohnanza (3rd field is not prominent enough).

I don't know if my definition is in line with BGG's consensus.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2015, 03:45:59 pm »
+2

point salading

That's a new one for me.  For anyone in the same boat, it's a (not terribly flattering, hence Accatitippi's disclaimer) term for games in which each turn you have lots of options, but you're going to score points whatever you do.  This means you can have games where people do wildly different things and still you have no real idea of who is winning until you count up.

BGG is unable to agree whether any particular game actually counts as point salad, with the possible exception of Castles of Burgundy and Chess.

Pretty much what I meant, yes. I usually use it to describe tactical games with no infrastructure-building phase, in which from the beginning you're trying to maximize your point revenue and "only" have to choose in what form you would like your points to come (small chunks white, incremental green, leviathan blue, interactive red, boring purple...).
Examples could be Carcassonne or Bohnanza (3rd field is not prominent enough).

I don't know if my definition is in line with BGG's consensus.

I've always heard it in reference to games with lots of different possible ways to score points, and where many of the actions you take throughout the game will give you small amounts of points here and there. But this is not in contradiction to infrastructure building. Castles of Burgundy has plenty of infrastructure building; between the Knowledge tiles that give you special abilities throughout, and the adjacency requirement of where you can place your tiles.

Macao and Bruges, 2 similar Feld games which I would still call point salad, have huge amounts of infrastructure building, about as much as in a deck builder like Dominion.

I've never heard Splendor called point salad before; that just seems way off to me. In Splendor you spend stuff to buy stuff that makes your collection of cards better so that you can buy more expensive stuff... basically a deck builder except your entire deck is always in your hand.
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Re: Waiting for Adventures On-line
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2015, 03:56:28 pm »
0

point salading

That's a new one for me.  For anyone in the same boat, it's a (not terribly flattering, hence Accatitippi's disclaimer) term for games in which each turn you have lots of options, but you're going to score points whatever you do.  This means you can have games where people do wildly different things and still you have no real idea of who is winning until you count up.

BGG is unable to agree whether any particular game actually counts as point salad, with the possible exception of Castles of Burgundy and Chess.

Pretty much what I meant, yes. I usually use it to describe tactical games with no infrastructure-building phase, in which from the beginning you're trying to maximize your point revenue and "only" have to choose in what form you would like your points to come (small chunks white, incremental green, leviathan blue, interactive red, boring purple...).
Examples could be Carcassonne or Bohnanza (3rd field is not prominent enough).

I don't know if my definition is in line with BGG's consensus.

I've always heard it in reference to games with lots of different possible ways to score points, and where many of the actions you take throughout the game will give you small amounts of points here and there. But this is not in contradiction to infrastructure building. Castles of Burgundy has plenty of infrastructure building; between the Knowledge tiles that give you special abilities throughout, and the adjacency requirement of where you can place your tiles.

Macao and Bruges, 2 similar Feld games which I would still call point salad, have huge amounts of infrastructure building, about as much as in a deck builder like Dominion.

I've never heard Splendor called point salad before; that just seems way off to me. In Splendor you spend stuff to buy stuff that makes your collection of cards better so that you can buy more expensive stuff... basically a deck builder except your entire deck is always in your hand.

It seems I use point salad wrong then.  :) (also, in my haste I glimpsed over the prestige card bonuses which are real infrastructure and very relevant, but overall similar: I get a red one, you get a blue one is much more balanced than I get a Wharf, you get a Cache).
Yet I would definitely not consider it a deckbuilder with a twist. :)
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