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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards  (Read 23111 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2015, 03:25:48 pm »
0

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2015, 03:41:58 pm »
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Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

Ambassador's attack is so powerful because you play it more often than any other junking attack (except sometimes Cultist).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2015, 03:51:13 pm »
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But shouldn't
Adam
outclass those other cursors.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2015, 04:01:22 pm »
+2

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

The cost matters because you can play it earlier, junking attacks in particular are more potent the earlier they are played.


But shouldn't
Adam
outclass those other cursors.

I don't swear on my YouTube channel :P
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Deadlock39

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2015, 05:13:21 pm »
+2

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

The cost matters because you can play it earlier, junking attacks in particular are more potent the earlier they are played.


But shouldn't
Adam
outclass those other cursors.

I don't swear on my YouTube channel :P

Which is exactly why you are more classy.

AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2015, 08:22:40 pm »
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Here is some useful data compiled by TheExpressicist from about a year ago on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

A related thread is here. Of note to the present discussion, Chapel is gained in 88% of games, and Ambassador is gained in 85% of games.

Finally on a computer where I can really view this data. I'm trying to find anything statistically significant here but what I get from this data is that both Ambassador and Chapel are good cards. There's a 7% difference in win rate, where you can ignore Chapel 7% more of the time than Ambassador? I dunno, I don't think there's any super-great conclusions one can make from this.

But I <3 numbers anyways :P
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2015, 08:39:44 pm »
0

Here is some useful data compiled by TheExpressicist from about a year ago on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

A related thread is here. Of note to the present discussion, Chapel is gained in 88% of games, and Ambassador is gained in 85% of games.

Finally on a computer where I can really view this data. I'm trying to find anything statistically significant here but what I get from this data is that both Ambassador and Chapel are good cards. There's a 7% difference in win rate, where you can ignore Chapel 7% more of the time than Ambassador? I dunno, I don't think there's any super-great conclusions one can make from this.

But I <3 numbers anyways :P

Last time I checked, "less than" was not a verb.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2015, 09:16:10 pm »
+5

It has to be a verb, otherwise "2<3" wouldn't be a complete clause. (this would mean you couldn't say "I know that 2<3")
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2015, 12:43:04 pm »
0

Look at the top ten:
Quote
1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake
There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2015, 04:15:43 pm »
0

"Thinning is winning" :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2015, 05:14:23 pm »
0

Look at the top ten:
Quote
1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake
There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.
Look at the top 7. There are 4 cards that are primarily used for attacking..
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2015, 05:19:19 pm »
0

Look at the top ten:
Quote
1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake
There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.
Look at the top 7. There are 4 cards that are primarily used for attacking..
3 of which make it harder for the receiving end to thin2win.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2015, 12:44:29 pm »
0

Look at the top ten:
Quote
1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake
There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.
Look at the top 7. There are 4 cards that are primarily used for attacking..
3 of which make it harder for the receiving end to thin2win.
And the 4th would probably fare (almost?) just as well if you removed the attack part and kept selling it at the same price.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2015, 12:56:42 pm »
+1

It was a joke, people!

Thinning being very strong is not exactly a modern 2015 advance in dominion strategy no one knew about earlier.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2015, 01:07:34 pm »
+2

It was a joke, people!

Thinning being very strong is not exactly a modern 2015 advance in dominion strategy no one knew about earlier.

I think it has still been underrated, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2015, 02:29:42 pm »
+2

It was a joke, people!

Thinning being very strong is not exactly a modern 2015 advance in dominion strategy no one knew about earlier.

I think it has still been underrated, though.

And it will continue to be underrated until every game begins with both players rushing to trash down to a deck of just island/chapel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2015, 08:01:00 pm »
+2

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2015, 08:24:52 pm »
+1

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

That's because Loan and Trade Route are, like, terrible cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2015, 09:03:13 pm »
+2

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

This is really hard, my advice here is that these things can be very draw-dependent and luck-dependent. If you feel like you trashed the wrong amount, play that same board a few more times and learn how the deck feels each time when you go for varying levels of trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2015, 01:19:54 am »
+1

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

That's because Loan and Trade Route are, like, terrible cards.

Loan is actually a pretty powerful card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2015, 11:49:57 am »
0

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

It's often a good idea to forego slow trashing on a Wharf board (or a Governor board). Getting a Wharf on Shuffle 2 is more important than trashing a card on Shuffle 2; same with Governor. You can get a loan on an unfortunate <5 hand during the 2nd shuffle if you feel like it.

King's Court, on the other hand, it's less common that you want to forego trashing, even slow trashing, although this one is difficult. The key question is really: how important is snagging an early KC? This tends to be highly board-dependent and also highly luck-dependent. If your KC hits your bridge in Shuffle 4, you are really glad you didn't buy that loan; if you draw it dead, you are super sad.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2015, 12:04:36 pm »
0

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

It's often a good idea to forego slow trashing on a Wharf board (or a Governor board). Getting a Wharf on Shuffle 2 is more important than trashing a card on Shuffle 2; same with Governor. You can get a loan on an unfortunate <5 hand during the 2nd shuffle if you feel like it.

King's Court, on the other hand, it's less common that you want to forego trashing, even slow trashing, although this one is difficult. The key question is really: how important is snagging an early KC? This tends to be highly board-dependent and also highly luck-dependent. If your KC hits your bridge in Shuffle 4, you are really glad you didn't buy that loan; if you draw it dead, you are super sad.

I agree with this a lot, except for the bolded part. Governor with trashing is so good, you get to play a lot of your Governors for other things besides draw.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2015, 03:10:28 pm »
0

i think part of my problem with governor might be that i use its own trashing too much early - i just can't pass up the chance to turn an estate into a cantrip! i like never gain gold until i have a few governors and maybe that's dumb as heck???

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2015, 03:17:15 pm »
+1

i think part of my problem with governor might be that i use its own trashing too much early - i just can't pass up the chance to turn an estate into a cantrip! i like never gain gold until i have a few governors and maybe that's dumb as heck???

If you're using Governor to remodel a card early on, you're helping your opponent pretty much as much as you're helping yourself, since they can almost always just thin a Copper. Drawing is the strongest Governor ability early on most of the time.

The big exception to this is when you're remodeling a Silver (or something else) into MOAR GOVVIES. In this case your opponent will usually have a tough time getting even close to the value you're getting.

As for gaining Gold, it depends very much on the other support the board has to offer. Many times it's best to spend one turn gaining and drawing Golds and buying like two Provinces or so with it (this number depends vastly on what your opponent's deck is capable of) and then the next turn remodeling a ton of those Golds into Provinces. Usually before this I try not to gain Golds unless I'm drawing a lot and that Gold is legit going to help me get more Governors. Giving your opponent a Silver to remodel into a Governor can be much more helpful than an early Gold to you.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: All cards
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2015, 08:49:58 pm »
0

i mainly run into this problem when i play some governors and reach the end of a shuffle with more left - drawing seems ridiculously bad there, so i tend to thin my deck rather than add another stop card that won't help me a ton early.  maybe gold is still better more often than not since it helps avoid turns below $5 and you need it for the endgame anyway...
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