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[Qvist]

1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake
11. Governor
12. Witch
13. Tournament
14. Scrying Pool
15. Junk Dealer
16. Steward
17. Page
18. Urchin
19. Hunting Party
20. Fishing Village
21. Grand Market
22. Ironmonger
23. Jack of all Trades
24. Torturer
25. Wandering Minstrel
26. Magpie
27. Lost Arts
28. Minion
29. Upgrade
30. Counterfeit
31. Swindler
32. Menagerie
33. Herald
34. Peasant
35. Forager
36. Ferry
37. Bridge
38. Butcher
39. Familiar
40. Margrave
41. Haunted Woods
42. Ghost Ship
43. Sea Hag
44. Stonemason
45. Tactician
46. Swamp Hag
47. Young Witch
48. Lost City
49. Bridge Troll
50. Border Village
51. Highway
52. Amulet
53. Pathfinding
54. Militia
55. Count
56. Haggler
57. Apprentice
58. Throne Room
59. Fool's Gold
60. Marauder
61. Knights
62. Spice Merchant
63. Watchtower
64. Hermit
65. Laboratory
66. Courtyard
67. Horn of Plenty
68. Hamlet
69. Royal Carriage
70. Vineyard
71. Stables
72. Hunting Grounds
73. Inheritance
74. Black Market
75. Hireling
76. Ill-Gotten Gains
77. Port
78. Caravan
79. Bishop
80. Lighthouse
81. Soothsayer
82. Altar
83. Monument
84. Worker's Village
85. Summon
86. Smithy
87. Apothecary
88. Gear
89. Plaza
90. Embassy
91. Bandit Camp
92. Bazaar
93. Alchemist
94. Conspirator
95. Squire
96. Rabble
97. Quarry
98. Catacombs
99. Warehouse
100. City
101. Vault
102. Baker
103. Peddler
104. Duke
105. Ratcatcher
106. Salvager
107. Procession
108. Journeyman
109. Nobles
110. Distant Lands
111. Guide
112. Jester
113. Envoy
114. Transmogrify
115. Duplicate
116. Moneylender
117. Training
118. Dungeon
119. Ironworks
120. Scheme
121. Merchant Guild
122. Fortress
123. Cartographer
124. Storyteller
125. Festival
126. Artificer
127. Horse Traders
128. Candlestick Maker
129. University
130. Village
131. Council Room
132. Advisor
133. Crossroads
134. Alms
135. Fairgrounds
136. Market
137. Market Square
138. Possession
139. Bonfire
140. Coin of the Realm
141. Inn
142. Giant
143. Band of Misfits
144. Ranger
145. Farming Village
146. Golem
147. Expedition
148. Mission
149. Scavenger
150. Mining Village
151. Raze
152. Remodel
153. Library
154. Relic
155. Borrow
156. Ball
157. Cutpurse
158. Gardens
159. Lookout
160. Doctor
161. Forge
162. Wishing Well
163. Save
164. Hoard
165. Prince
166. Native Village
167. Pilgrimage
168. Mystic
169. Treasure Trove
170. Trading Post
171. Storeroom
172. Graverobber
173. Oasis
174. Travelling Fair
175. Plan
176. Oracle
177. Seaway
178. Treasury
179. Shanty Town
180. Baron
181. Silk Road
182. Bank
183. Miser
184. Venture
185. Smugglers
186. Expand
187. Outpost
188. Mint
189. Wine Merchant
190. Island
191. Armory
192. Pawn
193. Walled Village
194. Cellar
195. Merchant Ship
196. Tunnel
197. Trader
198. Trade
199. Haven
200. Death Cart
201. Pillage
202. Messenger
203. Caravan Guard
204. Moat
205. Vagrant
206. Workshop
207. Rogue
208. Loan
209. Develop
210. Sage
211. Feodum
212. Poor House
213. Masterpiece
214. Raid
215. Scouting Party
216. Nomad Camp
217. Quest
218. Rats
219. Noble Brigand
220. Harem
221. Embargo
222. Trade Route
223. Talisman
224. Tribute
225. Taxman
226. Philosopher's Stone
227. Mine
228. Farmland
229. Explorer
230. Royal Seal
231. Beggar
232. Coppersmith
233. Fortune Teller
234. Spy
235. Mandarin
236. Contraband
237. Bureaucrat
238. Woodcutter
239. Great Hall
240. Pirate Ship
241. Pearl Diver
242. Treasure Map
243. Stash
244. Feast
245. Herbalist
246. Navigator
247. Saboteur
248. Cache
249. Harvest
250. Transmute
251. Counting House
252. Chancellor
253. Secret Chamber
254. Duchess
255. Adventurer
256. Thief
257. Scout

[Limetime]

How is rebuild<kc I ignore rebuild more than Kc and KC beats rebuild any day.

[LaLight]

Lost arts is waaaay underrated IMO.

[Roadrunner7671]

Are you kidding? People need to get educated! Worst overall? Man, that's bull.

[LastFootnote]

Are you kidding? People need to get educated! Worst overall? Man, that's bull.

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

[Roadrunner7671]

Are you kidding? People need to get educated! Worst overall? Man, that's bull.

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

+4

[liopoil]

Okay, Watchtower is not better than hermit.

[werothegreat]

Are you kidding? People need to get educated! Worst overall? Man, that's bull.

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

Really?  I would put Chancellor over all of these.  I mean, it at least has the bare minimum going for it - it's a terminal Silver, which is more than can be said for the others in most conditions.

[markusin]

Woah, too many cards to parse right now.

Skimming through, I noticed Black Market at 74, which should be higher right. I predict some of the Adventures rankings are way off.

Also, Feast Y U No bottom 10.

[Dingan]

I'll do what most people probably do -- focus on the top 10 and bottom 10.

KC > Rebuild
My gut still says Cultist > Monty, but really unsure
Ambassador should be higher
Goons is super awesome but should be a bit lower, because it's nothing more than a Militia or Monument in some circumstances, and is ignorable more often than, say, Masq
Scrying Pool should be way higher
I would put Masq > Wharf, but would not fight over it (my main problem with Wharf is that it needs Throne Rooms or villages to really make it powerful, whereas Masq does it's magic just by itself, but I digress)

I would put Transmute and Adventurer as the bottom 2 cards.  I never buy those.  Like ever.  Like, I have played thousands of games since Goko, and have probably bought each maaaaaybe 1 time.  I know I've bought Scout at least a handful of times.
Secret Chamber should be higher, as in above Feast and Stash etc.  It (kind of) shines in several scenarios -- Scrying Pool, Knights, Swindler.  (I know, all cards can shine given the right circumstances; it just seems like SC shines in more oddball situations than it would appear to at first glance.)

As for the other 250 cards... ya they look about right.

EDIT:
I'm somewhat digressing here, but I guess I feel that cards that need other cards to truly be powerful/activated, are overrated.  Take Torturer for example.  1 Torturer is not going to do much.  It's when you can play 3 or 4 per turn when it truly gets powerful.  But in order to do that, you need other village support.  I could make a similar statement about Goons or Wharf.  Don't get me wrong -- these are all wonderful cards.  They just need other things to make them truly shine.  By contrast, Chapel, Masq, Governor, etc. don't need much else to "maximize" their effect, and for that reason, I tend to regard these as probably better than they actually are.  My 2 cents.  Carry on.

[Awaclus]

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

I don't think you should. Thief is good when your opponent is relying on good Treasures, Adventurer is good when you need more draw for your engine that already has other good draw but the pile ran out, Chancellor is good with Stash, and Secret Chamber is good with Tactician, Counting House and Scrying Pool. Sometimes, there are edge cases where Scout hurts you less than it usually does, but I can't remember playing a single game where I think Scout was actually worth getting and I've tried to design kingdoms around it.

[Roadrunner7671]

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

and I've tried to design kingdoms around it.

Try harder.

[managore]

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

I don't think you should. Thief is good when your opponent is relying on good Treasures, Adventurer is good when you need more draw for your engine that already has other good draw but the pile ran out, Chancellor is good with Stash, and Secret Chamber is good with Tactician, Counting House and Scrying Pool. Sometimes, there are edge cases where Scout hurts you less than it usually does, but I can't remember playing a single game where I think Scout was actually worth getting and I've tried to design kingdoms around it.

Scout, Harem, Great Hall, Fishing Village, Woodcutter, Militia, Navigator, Baron, Scavenger, Nomad Camp.

Would that do?

[trivialknot]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

[Awaclus]

Scout, Harem, Great Hall, Fishing Village, Woodcutter, Militia, Navigator, Baron, Scavenger, Nomad Camp.

Would that do?

I don't think so.

[ehunt]

Adventurer is crazy overpriced but has its niches; the times to pick it up are:
-an all base game with chapel and no draw
-a boring colony game
But still, if it were priced at 3, it would be worse than Oracle.

Thief is an OK way to punish an opponent in a KC game for not building a KC engine, and is an actively good card on a Fool's Gold board, but is usually horrible.

Noble Brigand is better than Thief in four ways:
1. Attacks on buy.
2. +1coin when you play.
3. Does something if it doesn't hit treasure.
4. Doesn't trash your opponent's coppers for them,
and yet it is still an awful card. In fact, the one way in which thief is better (hits treasures other than silver and gold) is sufficiently important that for some non-trivial proportion of the rare boards in which you want one of them, Thief is the one that you want.

[Qvist]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

[schadd]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

a couple of people, like, two people? who was the other guy?

[AJD]

Adventurer is crazy overpriced but has its niches; the times to pick it up are:
-an all base game with chapel and no draw
-a boring colony game
But still, if it were priced at 3, it would be worse than Oracle

The last time I bought Adventurer (or at least, the last time I bought Adventurer and it was a good idea) was a game with Scrying Pool, Bishop, and no villages. So I bought Adventurer just because it was a $6 Action (i.e., because I could draw it with Scrying Pool and Bishop it for 4 VP), rather than to actually use it.

[werothegreat]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

a couple of people, like, two people? who was the other guy?

Me.

[markusin]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

a couple of people, like, two people? who was the other guy?

Me.

And me. So that's more than two. I'm not personally a fan of "a couple" automatically implying two. It's more like 2 + (0 to 3 ) others.

[schadd]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

also, that's a lil bit unfair maybe, if it's, like, a ranking of percent scores then chapel gets an advantage because it happens to be so clearly better than all of the other $2s, whereas with the threes or something it's more up in the air.

[Aleimon Thimble]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

a couple of people, like, two people? who was the other guy?

Me.

And me. So that's more than two. I'm not personally a fan of "a couple" automatically implying two. It's more like 2 + (0 to 3 ) others.

Number 4 reporting!

[Accatitippi]

Are you kidding? People need to get educated! Worst overall? Man, that's bull.

I think I get Scout more often than Thief, Adventurer, Chancellor, or Secret Chamber, so I guess I'd have to agree with you.

Really?  I would put Chancellor over all of these.  I mean, it at least has the bare minimum going for it - it's a terminal Silver, which is more than can be said for the others in most conditions.

Secret Chamber's abuse potential makes it much better than Scout too, in my opinion. It's occasionally a decent card and once in a while an awesome card. I'd put it above Chancellor (ok card most of the time), Transmute and Harvest, definitely. (Counting house being a bit further up the list).

[Limetime]

How are the cards ranked?  Did people actually vote on a complete ranking of all cards, or they just ordered by the percentage points from the other lists?

A couple of people actually ordered all cards. For the rest I took all individual lists and spread the cards out equally.

a couple of people, like, two people? who was the other guy?

Me.

And me. So that's more than two. I'm not personally a fan of "a couple" automatically implying two. It's more like 2 + (0 to 3 ) others.

Number 4 reporting!

Number 5 is here! Anyway I think that people that took the time to rate ~all of the cards should be weighted because that way we can see how cads of different prices matchup.
Transmute can be a solid consolation prize in a familiar game(to a lesser extent scrying pool)

[Beyond Awesome]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

[Dingan]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

Does anybody NOT think Chapel is #1?

[aku_chi]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

I think Ambassador deserves the top spot.  Ambassador is so rarely ignorable and it has a such a major impact on the game.  Okay, the same can be said for Chapel.  But I think there are more boards where it is only slightly disadvantageous to ignore Chapel.  On most boards, if you ignore Ambassador, you get wrecked.  I wonder, are there statistics for how often 5/2 openings lose on an Ambassador board?

[Roadrunner7671]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

Does anybody NOT think Chapel is #1?

Me! Pick me!

[Aleimon Thimble]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

Does anybody NOT think Chapel is #1?

I had Chapel around #10 or so. It's incredibly strong, but there are several cards that are even more game-breaking, including Page, Ambassador, Cultist, Goons, King's Court and Scrying Pool.

[Awaclus]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

Does anybody NOT think Chapel is #1?

I don't think it's #1. It's worse than Ambassador for sure. Comparisons between Chapel and cards like King's Court are a lot more difficult because they have very little in common, but I'd still say KC is stronger than Chapel too.

[AdamH]

Rebuild and Cultist should certainly be higher than Chapel. Masquerade, Urchin, and Ambassador should probably be higher than Chapel. Lost Arts for sure, Goons for sure.

There are arguments to be made for even more cards -- so it's pretty clear-cut for me that Chapel isn't the strongest card in Dominion. Sometimes getting rid of your cards as quickly as possible isn't the best thing ever, but the games where those other cards don't fit into the best strategy possible AND change the landscape of the game because of their presence are very rare.

[markusin]

At least Chapel is number 1, as it should be.

Does anybody NOT think Chapel is #1?

I had Chapel around #10 or so. It's incredibly strong, but there are several cards that are even more game-breaking, including Page, Ambassador, Cultist, Goons, King's Court and Scrying Pool.

I also had Chapel around #10, but I can't deny that it's low cost contributes makes it hard to compare to other elite cards. I had Ambassador, Masquerade, and Rebuild in my top 3.

[ehunt]

Part of it depends on how seriously you take price into account: Chapel is clearly the best deal in Dominion, and Adventurer the worst. This in turn makes Chapel a really good card, and Adventurer a really bad card, but to me it's not quite enough to make them the best/worst cards.

What price do you have to put on Chapel for it to become a bad card? It's a fine 5 but not overpowered; probably worse than Count but not definitely so. At 6 it's too expensive and undoubtedly one of the worst, but still not a total dud.

[Awaclus]

Part of it depends on how seriously you take price into account: Chapel is clearly the best deal in Dominion, and Adventurer the worst. This in turn makes Chapel a really good card, and Adventurer a really bad card, but to me it's not quite enough to make them the best/worst cards.

What price do you have to put on Chapel for it to become a bad card? It's a fine 5 but not overpowered; probably worse than Count but not definitely so. At 6 it's too expensive and undoubtedly one of the worst, but still not a total dud.

Forge costs $7, it's only slightly better than Chapel, and it's a decently powerful card.

[ehunt]

Forge costs $7, it's only slightly better than Chapel, and it's a decently powerful card.

I don't agree that it's only slightly better than a Chapel (that is to say, a hypothetical Chapel that's costed at 7). The "trash only 4" restriction would hurt a lot on the types of boards where you want a Forge, and the gaining from Forge (and in particular the endgame tempo control) is very important. But I do agree with the larger point which is Chapel at 7 would certainly not be awful.

[Awaclus]

Forge costs $7, it's only slightly better than Chapel, and it's a decently powerful card.

I don't agree that it's only slightly better than a Chapel (that is to say, a hypothetical Chapel that's costed at 7). The "trash only 4" restriction would hurt a lot on the types of boards where you want a Forge, and the gaining from Forge (and in particular the endgame tempo control) is very important. But I do agree with the larger point which is Chapel at 7 would certainly not be awful.

Well, at least you get to actually trash 4 with Chapel. With Forge, you essentially only trash 3 cards because you also have to gain one, and you don't always get to gain a good card.

[Limetime]

Sometimes you can ignore rebuild which is pretty sad for a card this high in the ranks. It is harder but is still possible to ignore cultist and mountebank. Chapel, king's court, urchin, masquerade, liopoil, hermit help you ignore these. Lost arts is sometimes better than page. I put Chapel at #2 and hold by that decision. The thing about ambassador is it is way slow compared to chapel limited to 2 trashes per play you will not be able to trash estates for awhile unless if you forgo trashing two coppers. The reason I put KC above chapel is there are so many trashers these days but there is still nothing quite like KC(Except disciple). Peasant is really good becuz of disciple.

[wachsmuth]

Ambassador is clearly worse than every other top tier trasher with Shelters, which is also a knock against it.

[teamrocketgrunt]

so it's pretty clear-cut for me that Chapel isn't the strongest card in Dominion.

I don't think it is, either. I have very little experience and I hope, I understood the ranking method concerning all cards correctly, but as of now - with only a handful of people having submitted a ranked list of all the cards - all this ranking says is: "Chapel is the best card in Dominion, if a card's absolute value was only determined by how it compares to all cards costing the same." But - and I say this not, because I think I know what I'm talking about Dominion-wise, but because it seems logical - that can't be the case, since that would split up the effect of a card and its cost in a way that cannot portray the actual strength of a card accurately.

I'm not sure how you would have to go about this (in fact, all my ideas here might be older than the sun and have been put forth before, I just didn't know about the rankings then, or Dominion, for that matter), but you could either try an intuitive approach (just what the above mentioned handful have been doing presumably) to rank all cards or you could try one that tries to separate effect and cost carefully before combining them again.

First, rankings of all the cards, based solely on the value of the card effect without considering cost, would have to be submitted (super difficult and also highly intuitive). Second, you would have to determine how well you expect a card costing "X" to perform compared to a card costing "Y". If you take $2 cards as a baseline, you probably wouldn't just assume $3 cards to be "1.5 times (3/2) better" on a regular basis, nor would you even automatically assume that a $5 cost card is 2.5 times (5/2) better than an average $2 cost card. I have to admit, I'm at a loss determining how well cards are supposed to perform compared to their cost, though. Plus, you cannot just multiply effect rating by cost factor to determine a card's true value. You would also need to take into account that card effect and cost might have to be weighted differently in different "cost categories". $ 5 cards are often crucial. Their effects are so good on an absolute basis that this justifies having a lower card effect to cost ratio.

The more I write about it, the more I think I'm starting to ramble, though. Anyways I'd be curious to see everyone ranking all cards and compare the results with the list that Qvist offered. I'd contribute myself and I'd try to help out Scout. Poor guy.

[AdamH]

Ambassador is clearly worse than every other top tier trasher with Shelters, which is also a knock against it.

Ambassador is worse at getting the number of cards in your deck as low as possible as quickly as possible, yes. There's no denying that Chapel is the best card for doing that and it always will be*.

But it's so rare that this is what you want, yeah it's close a lot of the time but mansies, it's a pretty severe oversimplification that you just want to trash your ten starting cards as quickly as possible 100% of the time in order to maximize your win rate.

Not to mention the attack part of Ambassador is devastating. With Shelters and no other support whatsoever, I can build a deck that gives you two junks per turn, which can be difficult to deal with sustainably, even with Chapel.


I think it's tough to say precisely what these rankings measure, mostly because the only criteria we were given are "vote for the best card" without any context. Granted, I think that's appropriate, but when you read these rankings you have to keep in mind that lots of people voted with lots of different criteria in mind. What this means (IMHO) is that differences between cards that are close to each other can't really be taken with very high importance. I put Cultist on top of the $5 list but that doesn't mean I will be getting Cultist in every game I play and it doesn't mean it will always be the first fiver I buy -- it just means that it's a good card and you should give it more weight when assessing a kingdom.

These cards lists are super-great, but you're only going to get maximum value out of them if you know exactly what kind of data to get out of them and don't draw false conclusions from them.

[Deadlock39]

But it's so rare that this is what you want, yeah it's close a lot of the time but mansies, it's a pretty severe oversimplification that you just want to trash your ten starting cards as quickly as possible 100% of the time in order to maximize your win rate.

Adam's point here is highlighted well by this classic Dominion video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weO-3cWqV0A&t=348

[Limetime]

Ambassador can be countered by Moat and liopoil and hermit and spice merchant/moneylender and ratcatcher and raze and chapel and junk dealer and count and counterfeit . Maybe I am biased because I hate junkers.

[AdamH]

It's not countered by any of those things -- those things can provide defense that is mostly inconsequential unless you're going to have some way to guarantee they're in every single hand you draw, since the attack of Ambassador makes it less and less likely that you'll be able to defend effectively.

Trashing often fits into your strategy when you're going for Ambassador, but if you aren't junking your opponent with Ambassador along with that other stuff, you're going to lose over 99% of the time to the guy who does.

Yes, I said over 99% of the time and I'm not exaggerating. Ambassador's attack is really that powerful.

[GendoIkari]

It's not countered by any of those things -- those things can provide defense that is mostly inconsequential unless you're going to have some way to guarantee they're in every single hand you draw, since the attack of Ambassador makes it less and less likely that you'll be able to defend effectively.

Trashing often fits into your strategy when you're going for Ambassador, but if you aren't junking your opponent with Ambassador along with that other stuff, you're going to lose over 99% of the time to the guy who does.

Yes, I said over 99% of the time and I'm not exaggerating. Ambassador's attack is really that powerful.

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

[Awaclus]

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

[markusin]

It's not countered by any of those things -- those things can provide defense that is mostly inconsequential unless you're going to have some way to guarantee they're in every single hand you draw, since the attack of Ambassador makes it less and less likely that you'll be able to defend effectively.

Trashing often fits into your strategy when you're going for Ambassador, but if you aren't junking your opponent with Ambassador along with that other stuff, you're going to lose over 99% of the time to the guy who does.

Yes, I said over 99% of the time and I'm not exaggerating. Ambassador's attack is really that powerful.

It's sort of like Ambassador is negating the benefit you would get from those trashers, except the Ambassador is thinning it's owner deck while yours isn't getting thinned as quickly. That is unless.you buy more trashers to compensate, but those are buys (and possibly actions) not going towards your payload cards. And the Ambassador player will just start junking faster and faster due to having a smaller deck if you don't retaliate.

I'd say you can still get away with ignoring Ambassador if you have good trashers while you don't want a particularly small deck, say because there's no real engine on the board that benefits from a small deck. The Ambassador player wastes a terminal slot and will have fewer cards helpful in other ways while you have a nice balance of treasures and actions and are just better equipped to resist the greening phase.

If you're looking for a thin deck against Ambassador, you won't get it easily without getting Chapel or Ambassador yourself.

[AdamH]

It's not countered by any of those things -- those things can provide defense that is mostly inconsequential unless you're going to have some way to guarantee they're in every single hand you draw, since the attack of Ambassador makes it less and less likely that you'll be able to defend effectively.

Trashing often fits into your strategy when you're going for Ambassador, but if you aren't junking your opponent with Ambassador along with that other stuff, you're going to lose over 99% of the time to the guy who does.

Yes, I said over 99% of the time and I'm not exaggerating. Ambassador's attack is really that powerful.

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Awaclus already mentioned cost, which is a huge deal. I think Amb is the only card that costs less than 4 that can hand out Curses, right? Even junks of any kind. Well there's Swindler, ehh, probably not a valid comparison. Costing $3 is a big deal.

This is actually a really big deal, that the piles of junk don't run out (60 Coppers is basically infinite in a 2P game). When the purples are gone you can just go ahead and build whatever deck you were going to build without worrying a constant influx of junk. Man, just try building an engine with Treasure Trove as the payload, you'll quickly see what I mean. This means that building a deck that can dish out two, three, or let's-not-even-get-into-the-obscene-numbers-when-King's-Court-gets-involved junks per turn can actually have the junking effect magnified where when you're just dealing with Purples there's an end to the misery.

If I play you on 55 boards where we force both Ambassador and Chapel into the kingdom, I'm not allowed to buy Chapel and you're not allowed to buy Ambassador, I'm willing to be money that I will win at least 35 of those games convincingly, and the rest of them I'll probably win like 50%? Maybe more? Maybe this doesn't mean anything, I haven't really thought it through (just because one card is better to get than another card when both are on the board doesn't mean it's a better card in general -- I'm thinking of Counting House and Mountebank here).

I know that in all of the games of Dominion I've played (that weren't specifically designed kingdoms), I'm pretty sure more than 100 have been with Ambassador and I only know of one of them where Ambassador didn't seem like part of the best strategy at the end of it all (neither I nor my opponent bought Ambassador that game). There's another one where I thought it might have been close but I don't remember it very well. OTOH, I've lost count of the number of games where I ignore Chapel because I want to go with other options for trashing that are better for my building. This goes back to the idea that purging all starting cards as quickly as possible is not always best.

[JW]

Here is some useful data compiled by TheExpressicist from about a year ago on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

A related thread is here. Of note to the present discussion, Chapel is gained in 88% of games, and Ambassador is gained in 85% of games.

[Marcory]

Just to be pedantic, Adam, Masquerade, Swindler, and Embargo can also curse opponents and cost less than $4, but, of course, they can seldom do so as effectively as Ambassador.

[GendoIkari]

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

[Awaclus]

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

Ambassador's attack is so powerful because you play it more often than any other junking attack (except sometimes Cultist).

[Limetime]

But shouldn't

Adam

outclass those other cursors.

[AdamH]

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

The cost matters because you can play it earlier, junking attacks in particular are more potent the earlier they are played.

But shouldn't

Adam

outclass those other cursors.

I don't swear on my YouTube channel

[Deadlock39]

I don't see how. Ambassador's attack is worse than Witch's or any other Cursor's... unless you're including the fact that curses run out. So any board where Chapel would win out against Witch should be a board where Chapel would win out against Ambassador also...

Witch doesn't thin your own deck and you can't open with two of them (edge cases aside).

Yes but he was talking specifically about how powerful Ambassador's attack is.

The cost matters because you can play it earlier, junking attacks in particular are more potent the earlier they are played.

But shouldn't

Adam

outclass those other cursors.

I don't swear on my YouTube channel

Which is exactly why you are more classy.

[AdamH]

Here is some useful data compiled by TheExpressicist from about a year ago on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

A related thread is here. Of note to the present discussion, Chapel is gained in 88% of games, and Ambassador is gained in 85% of games.

Finally on a computer where I can really view this data. I'm trying to find anything statistically significant here but what I get from this data is that both Ambassador and Chapel are good cards. There's a 7% difference in win rate, where you can ignore Chapel 7% more of the time than Ambassador? I dunno, I don't think there's any super-great conclusions one can make from this.

But I <3 numbers anyways

[werothegreat]

Here is some useful data compiled by TheExpressicist from about a year ago on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

A related thread is here. Of note to the present discussion, Chapel is gained in 88% of games, and Ambassador is gained in 85% of games.

Finally on a computer where I can really view this data. I'm trying to find anything statistically significant here but what I get from this data is that both Ambassador and Chapel are good cards. There's a 7% difference in win rate, where you can ignore Chapel 7% more of the time than Ambassador? I dunno, I don't think there's any super-great conclusions one can make from this.

But I <3 numbers anyways

Last time I checked, "less than" was not a verb.

[XerxesPraelor]

It has to be a verb, otherwise "2<3" wouldn't be a complete clause. (this would mean you couldn't say "I know that 2<3")

[Limetime]

Look at the top ten:

1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake

There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.

[AdamH]

"Thinning is winning"

[Eevee]

Look at the top ten:

1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake

There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.

Look at the top 7. There are 4 cards that are primarily used for attacking..

[markusin]

Look at the top ten:

1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake

There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.

Look at the top 7. There are 4 cards that are primarily used for attacking..

3 of which make it harder for the receiving end to thin2win.

[Accatitippi]

Look at the top ten:

1. Chapel
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. King's Court
5. Cultist
6. Goons
7. Wharf
8. Ambassador
9. Masquerade
10. Remake

There are 4 cards that are primarily used for thinning. There are 4 attacks with 3 of them being junkers. There is one card used primarily for draw. There is one village and there is one rebuild. The community has realized thinning is the best way and is usually important.

Look at the top 7. There are 4 cards that are primarily used for attacking..

3 of which make it harder for the receiving end to thin2win.

And the 4th would probably fare (almost?) just as well if you removed the attack part and kept selling it at the same price.

[Eevee]

It was a joke, people!

Thinning being very strong is not exactly a modern 2015 advance in dominion strategy no one knew about earlier.

[Awaclus]

It was a joke, people!

Thinning being very strong is not exactly a modern 2015 advance in dominion strategy no one knew about earlier.

I think it has still been underrated, though.

[iguanaiguana]

It was a joke, people!

Thinning being very strong is not exactly a modern 2015 advance in dominion strategy no one knew about earlier.

I think it has still been underrated, though.

And it will continue to be underrated until every game begins with both players rushing to trash down to a deck of just island/chapel.

[funkdoc]

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

[werothegreat]

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

That's because Loan and Trade Route are, like, terrible cards.

[AdamH]

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

This is really hard, my advice here is that these things can be very draw-dependent and luck-dependent. If you feel like you trashed the wrong amount, play that same board a few more times and learn how the deck feels each time when you go for varying levels of trashing.

[Awaclus]

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

That's because Loan and Trade Route are, like, terrible cards.

Loan is actually a pretty powerful card.

[ehunt]

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

It's often a good idea to forego slow trashing on a Wharf board (or a Governor board). Getting a Wharf on Shuffle 2 is more important than trashing a card on Shuffle 2; same with Governor. You can get a loan on an unfortunate <5 hand during the 2nd shuffle if you feel like it.

King's Court, on the other hand, it's less common that you want to forego trashing, even slow trashing, although this one is difficult. The key question is really: how important is snagging an early KC? This tends to be highly board-dependent and also highly luck-dependent. If your KC hits your bridge in Shuffle 4, you are really glad you didn't buy that loan; if you draw it dead, you are super sad.

[AdamH]

i think for someone like me who just started playing this game this year, the pendulum may have swung too far in the other direction.  i'm scared of games with wharf or king's court or governor because they create a much faster game where it's harder to determine just how much time you have to trash.  every time i go for something like loan or trade route on one of these boards, i get killed, and i don't know how to cope when i can't play the way i learned from watching yall.

It's often a good idea to forego slow trashing on a Wharf board (or a Governor board). Getting a Wharf on Shuffle 2 is more important than trashing a card on Shuffle 2; same with Governor. You can get a loan on an unfortunate <5 hand during the 2nd shuffle if you feel like it.

King's Court, on the other hand, it's less common that you want to forego trashing, even slow trashing, although this one is difficult. The key question is really: how important is snagging an early KC? This tends to be highly board-dependent and also highly luck-dependent. If your KC hits your bridge in Shuffle 4, you are really glad you didn't buy that loan; if you draw it dead, you are super sad.

I agree with this a lot, except for the bolded part. Governor with trashing is so good, you get to play a lot of your Governors for other things besides draw.

[funkdoc]

i think part of my problem with governor might be that i use its own trashing too much early - i just can't pass up the chance to turn an estate into a cantrip! i like never gain gold until i have a few governors and maybe that's dumb as heck???

[AdamH]

i think part of my problem with governor might be that i use its own trashing too much early - i just can't pass up the chance to turn an estate into a cantrip! i like never gain gold until i have a few governors and maybe that's dumb as heck???

If you're using Governor to remodel a card early on, you're helping your opponent pretty much as much as you're helping yourself, since they can almost always just thin a Copper. Drawing is the strongest Governor ability early on most of the time.

The big exception to this is when you're remodeling a Silver (or something else) into MOAR GOVVIES. In this case your opponent will usually have a tough time getting even close to the value you're getting.

As for gaining Gold, it depends very much on the other support the board has to offer. Many times it's best to spend one turn gaining and drawing Golds and buying like two Provinces or so with it (this number depends vastly on what your opponent's deck is capable of) and then the next turn remodeling a ton of those Golds into Provinces. Usually before this I try not to gain Golds unless I'm drawing a lot and that Gold is legit going to help me get more Governors. Giving your opponent a Silver to remodel into a Governor can be much more helpful than an early Gold to you.

[funkdoc]

i mainly run into this problem when i play some governors and reach the end of a shuffle with more left - drawing seems ridiculously bad there, so i tend to thin my deck rather than add another stop card that won't help me a ton early.  maybe gold is still better more often than not since it helps avoid turns below $5 and you need it for the endgame anyway...