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Author Topic: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?  (Read 13563 times)

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Yariv

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delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« on: January 13, 2012, 07:13:24 pm »
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It is the first time I encountered this as a problem, but it can be quite annoying and maybe something can be done (although I don't see what). In a game I played with JLock he announced on his 15th turn that he will deliberately play slowly because "I could and the game and I have a huge lead". Now, he was right that I could do it in my last two turns up to this moment (despite what I said in chat, I was mistaken), and I would have done so if I knew him to wish the game to end without resigning (though I see no reason not to resign). This was our conversation around this point:
Quote
yariv: hey, you there?
JLock: yep
yariv: ok
JLock: i'm just going to take 2 minutes between moves because
yariv: because?
JLock: you could have ended the game at any point in the last 10 minutes and didn't
yariv: how?
JLock: even though you had a huge lead
JLock: three tunnels
yariv: I didn't have the buys
JLock: you could have you had at least three buys each of the last two turns
yariv: well, enjoy
JLock: or could have easily
yariv: or resign, if you prefer
yariv: but in the future I recommend to suggest such a move to your opponent if you wish him to take it
yariv: and now I'm going to the forums, see if something can be done regarding such behaviour
Now, of course I waited and played when my turn arrived, then won as he resigned, but this can be extremely time consuming if he had an engine going, and during this time I can't even open another game on a different tab (unless doing something special), so it is quite annoying.

so, what can be done, if anything, regarding such behaviour? I would definitely try to remember not to play against him, but I might forget. will it be possible to implement an ignore-list in isotropic? do you find it reasonable?
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sjelkjd

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 08:28:47 pm »
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That's pretty annoying but unfortunately it's going to be hard to do much about.  You could imagine some kind of system where you flag people for objectionable behavior, and the log is stored and reviewed by a moderator, and violations would result in warnings/temporary bans/permanent bans.  The enforcement would be linked by account, so if you're unregistered it would be easy to circumvent(but may also increase the likelihood of registered only play).  But, this is a free system supported by Doug's free time, with an expiration date; and that's a lot to ask.

That said, I have been on the receiving end of a losing match against someone who built a scrying pool or spy deck, and takes 10 seconds per click and 5+ minutes per turn(no joke), and it is definitely rage inducing.  I play fast and would prefer to play against people who play fast as well.  I'm not saying that was the case here, but there is definitely a spectrum and getting paired with someone who's play speed doesn't match your own is annoying.
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barsooma

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 08:38:17 pm »
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I've actually thought about how to build a Chrome extension to provide personal or community driven ratings of player douchebaggery. It's a pretty simple project - I hacked together a script to annotate peoples usernames with their leaderboard # in a couple of days with no previous extension programming experience, back in the olden days before iso showed ranks. The only complication is that usernames are not unique identifiers - however the gravitar which is shown when someone proposes a game is (it's linked to the email address they sign in with).

I'd suggest pitching the idea to the point counter author, for someone with his skills it would be pretty trivial and he already has the backend running. Or browse his code and do it yourself.
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Fuu

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 10:03:28 pm »
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I had a similar experience yesterday. I played against someone (don't know if it is appropriate to name them) who would simply type "faster" during my turns, in an attempt to get me to hurry up. After a few turns this person simply typed "ok", and proceeded to play each of their turns with about 30 seconds between playing each card, and treasures individually. I didn't want to resign because this guy was about 3 levels below me, and I had a good chance of winning (and did win). The game went on for about 30 minutes, during which time I applied for a credit card.

There is a feature to force an opponent to resign if they are taking too long on an individual action, e.g. if they have just disappeared. But there is nothing in place to prevent this system being abused by players who are happy to deliberately drag their turns on one click at a time. You could even imagine that, because of the levelling system, you could increase your level artificially if you pulled this stunt on higher level players repeatedly and got them to resign out of frustration.

One solution would be a time limit that wasn't for a single action, as it is now, but instead a time limit per turn, or a time limit within which you have to play all your turns (I think there is a chess system like this...). A time limit per turn could still be abused, but if you only had say 10 minutes to play all your turns, then there is no chance that you could just drag it out almost indefinitely. Ultimately, it would still be down to your opponent if they want to make you resign at that stage.
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Kahryl

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 10:06:48 pm »
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Never encountered this.  The very occasional dick I've run into just resigned in a huff.  I'll avoid this guy!
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ftl

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 10:59:30 pm »
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Time limit for a turn is a bad idea, because it discriminates between strategies - someone playing Hamlet-Spy-Library might very legitimately and with no stalling take far longer than someone playing BM-Library.

I don't see a good solution besides just making yourself a text file with a list of players to avoid...
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buggibum

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 04:53:24 am »
+1

The problem mentioned wasnt about someone playing big chaining actions. It's about social behaviour.

Maybe there is some "Integrity-Button" like the "Like-Button" on Facebook, Ebay or Respect-Button here. So after each match, everyone can give the other player +1 for a good game, if they like to. Therefore some people don't make stupid things.

So there is no "Idiot"-Status for the players, just a "Integrity"-Status.
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Anon79

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 05:03:47 am »
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Yariv: apologising for not seeing it (being able to end the game) might have been the best way to get your opponent to speed up.
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Octo

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 06:00:51 am »
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To be play devil's advocate, perhaps the other guy thinks the same thing about you (the OP) - it sounds like he could be thinking "sheesh, what a douche, why didn't he just end it?" A more typical example is if you're goons-ing the living daylights out of someone and aren't really fussed about ending.
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Yariv

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2012, 06:58:32 am »
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This wasn't the point of the thread, but since two people suggested that I was somehow to blame (or should apologise, which is similar) I would like to point out that unless you force the opponent to have 0 cards hands he can resign on any turn, and that some players (me included) don't actively look for a way to end the game on each round that we lead.


Anyway, I guess I'll just go and write me an extension that will automatically reject games against a players from a given list. It would have been better (for me) integrated into the site, so I will get it even if I'm playing on some machine without the extension and won't have to install it on all the machines I play on, but since Iso has an expiration date (when?) I guess new features are not going to be implemented.
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Octo

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2012, 07:15:45 am »
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I wasn't having a go at you in particular, I just felt the other side of the story was a little under-represented is all.

Quote
some players (me included) don't actively look for a way to end the game on each round that we lead.
Why not?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 08:43:12 am »
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I do think you should end it when you can for everyone's sake. I think that stalling is a much greater offense. And I don't think you should have to go particularly out of your way to figure out when you can end it or face the scorn of your opponent - sometimes it's tricky and unclear.
Furthermore, I don't know what the case is in the games here, but in those goons games, I pretty fully endorse 'running up the score' so long as there isn't a way to end the game in a win this very turn. Because you never know what your opponent is going to do...

tl;dr I can understand why he was upset, but he reacted very poorly.

WanderingWinder

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2012, 08:44:21 am »
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I would like to point out that unless you force the opponent to have 0 cards hands he can resign on any turn

Actually, iirc, I believe it's any hand he has no actions or money in, not necessarily no cards.

Octo

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2012, 08:55:23 am »
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RE: goons, oh yeah, sure, you don't know what's going happen, been even a really mediocre player like myself has been in a situation where my mate was saying "just end it already dude!" because I was so far ahead and just killing them, and it's just those times that I was referring to. If there's still strategic doubt then, yeah, it's still no holds barred for sure.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2012, 09:01:47 am »
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Back on the time limit thing, maybe the only thing that would work in that regard would be a total-idle-time limit per turn. So if you take 30 seconds between each click, it adds up, but it doesn't discourage mega-engine decks.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2012, 09:08:30 am »
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Back on the time limit thing, maybe the only thing that would work in that regard would be a total-idle-time limit per turn. So if you take 30 seconds between each click, it adds up, but it doesn't discourage mega-engine decks.
Thing I'm worried about here is that if it takes me two seconds to move my mouse to make the next action (okay, maybe this is even a little long, but let's say half a second), if I play 50 cards, that's going to take me a lot longer than if I play only 3. Also, there are some decks where you need a long time to make your decisions, because they're close ones.

Octo

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2012, 09:36:50 am »
+1

Indeed, having more than one buy with a few Hinterlands on-gain cards on the table can cause some real tough choices in certain circumstances.

However, overall, one of the weird things about Dominion is that it makes me (and clearly others) so impatient. Waiting just two minutes for a turn is frustrating in Dominion all of a sudden and can result in much eye-rolling etc., but compare it to Scrabble where you can wait bloody 20 minutes for someone to come out with 'cat' or something pathetic!! 'Cat!??! Is that IT? Three sodding letters? We waited 20 minutes for THAT??!?!" :) Perhaps we should all just relax and consider quite how quick Dominion already is, and if we're really bothered then, hell, just open up your browser or read a book while it's going on.

Enforcing polite behaviour is, in my opinion, a bad way to go. Only rules should be enforced, along with the odd praciticality (eg the X min kick option is fine given that it's long enough, as they can lose connection/leave etc and you need to be able to end it properly - a situation not envisaged in the rules).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 09:43:47 am by Octo »
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barsooma

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 09:44:54 am »
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Ok, how about this idea (in the hypothetical dreamworld where improvements to iso will be made):

After 5 seconds of waiting for action, a button labelled "I'm thinking!" appears. If you don't click and hold down this button, after another 5 seconds your opponent can force-resign you. This wouldn't eliminate the problem, but it wouldn't hinder actual play much, and it would make it a lot more boring to delay the game, since they can't even tab away.
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buggibum

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2012, 09:55:45 am »
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We are talking about 2 things now:

1. thing is social behaviour: You can't stop ppl being shitty with those time functions because ppl learn how to abuse it.
2. thing is downtime while others make their moves: Players have different opinions how to play the game: slow or fast. If one player likes to play slowly while watching tv or having a phone call and the other one wants a fast game, there is a collusion in interest. There must be some kind of indication of slow or fast game like now. If someone has "fast game" in their info, you should play fast, otherwise take some patience with you and don't hurry other people. That's simply said, but hard to managed, i know.
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Yariv

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2012, 11:26:45 am »
+1

I don't think there is a practical way to handle stalling beyond what is already implemented and that won't punish some types of play over others. I was only looking for a personal ignore-list...

Regarding the problem of ending the game, I agree that ending when possible is the proper action, and usually try to do so. However, if I feel that my strategy works well I'm not going to search for ways to finish the game, I'll continue buying my colonies (and buying multiple colonies every turn is hardly stalling the game). If you wish the game to end, and you see a way for this to happen, and you don't want to resign for some reason, it's up to you to ask your opponent to do so. If the opponent clearly saw the game ending and still didn't go for it (stopped gaining cards of a type he gained many before, so as not to empty the pile), only then you might have a reason to be offended.
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timchen

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2012, 06:05:34 pm »
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I think the problem is pretty simple. I have mentioned somewhere before; in principle one can have a total amount of "thinking time", say 10 minutes. Between each action play one has, for example, a 3 second countdown. (for action with choices, add some time for each choice.) After the three second, the thinking time starts to decrease. One loses if one uses up all his thinking time.

If one needs some longer time to think and does not prefer a time-limited game, there can be an option in game that he can ask permission from his opponent to "pause" to think. For sure, that time ends when he plays his next action, and he will still be prompted to resign if he takes too long.

Actually I feel no obligation to end the game as quick as possible, even though I will try my best to do so. I do expect my opponent to behave similarly; but if they didn't I would just resign next turn. The bigger problem for me is sometimes that when the match is boring and lopsided (due to whatever uninteresting reason) and your opponent just refuses to resign (and sometimes plays so slowly.)
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Octo

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2012, 09:54:54 pm »
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Two things come to mind:

1. If a game is annoying you because you think they're behaving like an ass - regardless of whether you are winning or losing - just quit. It's just a random game with a random guy/gal on isotropic.

2. Why should I forcibly lose the game over some arbitrary time limit set by people with little or no patience? That's not in the rules of the game.

Note: I'm not a slow player, I'm often the one waiting for others (though not always).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 09:58:28 pm by Octo »
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barsooma

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 10:19:23 pm »
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Two things come to mind:

1. If a game is annoying you because you think they're behaving like an ass - regardless of whether you are winning or losing - just quit. It's just a random game with a random guy/gal on isotropic.

2. Why should I forcibly lose the game over some arbitrary time limit set by people with little or no patience? That's not in the rules of the game.

Note: I'm not a slow player, I'm often the one waiting for others (though not always).

Did you somehow miss the point of this thread?
It's about people who are purposely abusing the extensive time limit in order to punish their opponents or make the game so unenjoyable that they quit.
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Octo

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2012, 07:11:17 am »
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No I didn't miss that. My point is what is there to be gained in sitting there and taking the other guy's "punishment"? It's not fun or enjoyable, so stop doing it. If you're sticking in there because you're worried about your stats (one game in hundreds) then sorry, I have no sympathy for you.

Note that the other guy only did it because, rightly or wrongly, he thought the OP was doing something similar to him (by not finishing when he could) - my advice to him would be the same also. There's no winner here, both have coming away thinking the other person is an ass and now there's a whole thread about it. What a fuss over childish nonsense. Just quit, forget about it and move on if it's bothering you that much.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 07:17:33 am by Octo »
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def

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Re: delaying games on purpose, how to handle?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 10:45:12 am »
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No. If it was common behaviour to just quit, letting the opponent grab a win he shouldn't get, the best strategy (in terms of winning games, not anything else) would be to do so every game, going for many cantrips and taking up to 3 minutes for every played card. Even more, this wouldn't lead to winning only, but be much more efficient, since the other player would resign pretty soon if he follows your advice, thus letting the douchebag get faster to another game where he can proceed to do the same.
This would result into many more douchebags doing this. You make them notice "hey, it works, so why not do it every time I'm losing?". Note that I'm not talking about the OP's special case, but about douchebag who do it regularly when losing.
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