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GeneralRamos

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Another set of custom cards
« on: November 30, 2015, 09:14:09 am »
+3

A few more of my custom cards here! (Still not all of them; figure it's better to review a few at a time.) Unlike the last batch, most of these have seen at least moderate amounts of playtesting.


Toll Road: An action or treasure, depending on whether it is played during action or buy phase. Action phase it is a crossroads that gives the +3 actions every time, but has no draw. Buy phase it gives coin for unused actions. The action part ensures it's always on a board where it could be worth more than just a copper. It plays somewhat like a fool's gold, when played for the treasure value, since having multiples in hand increases the value.


Land Surveyor: Came out of the desire to have another variable-price card. It's a decent buy at $4, good at $2, and a steal at $0. It functions as a somewhat improved scout, clearing out greens, but drawing a card so multiples in hand aren't simply wasted. Having one also, like peddler, makes it easier to get subsequent ones, since it brings the price-reducing greens into your hand.


Stockpile: This was a favorite during playtesting. Came out of a desire for another duration-reaction. It sets you up for a better buying round on the subsequent turn. It is a powerful defense against hand-size reduction attacks, as reacting to one allows you to set it and up to two treasures aside, leaving you with a hand of 3. And you still draw another card when you start your own turn.


Drawbridge: A one-shot reaction. One part moat, one part bridge, and it draws you one card. Drawbridge. It was well liked during playtesting.


Suq: certainly a more marginal card, but it worked fairly well, esp. in early game. It might warrant a price reduction to $2. It removes your ability to buy on the current turn (unless other +buy available or a Suq from a previous turn in play) and in exchange improves your chances for a better buy next turn by effectively playing a market. Multiple suqs in hand one is great for hand two. But it's still fairly weak and I welcome suggestions. The idea was to make a duration that killed buy in turn one and enhanced buy in turn two, like a much weaker tactician. So help making it useful to this end would be appreciated.


Price Controls: Not a new concept, but modified a bit from other versions I've seen. It uses the coin tokens to mark the price increase, but doesn't "conflict" with Trade Route's tokens--it just means that in a Trade Route game victories start with the increased price, and buying them takes it off. It potentially ramps up Trade Route's potential buying power. But this is a fringe case anyway. There are also conditions for ending the price increase--the price control pile is depleted. And it doesn't allow you to continually mark up one card--it is limited to one token per pile. Creates interesting cases for cost-for-benefit cards, is a potential tool for disrupting opponents Mines or Rebuilds, or in some cases, for enhancing them.
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Limetime

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 11:40:58 am »
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I like these cards
I think that suq should have a bridge troll clause.
I really like Toll Road because it is an effective way of using the action-treasure type. I think it could cost 1 more to prevent games that one ignores all cards except villages.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 03:35:28 pm »
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I think they are interesting and they look roughly balanced.
The main problem in my opinion is Land Surveyor on 5/2 openings: you can open fiver/land surveyor while the other players have no access to either card, might not be broken but it's certainly annoying and probably quite swingy. Also as a cantrip with +Buy, this has the potential to piledrive itself quite easily, I think it's ok since it's not trivial to nullify its price but I've seen people frown at selfpiling cards before.
I'd add "you may" to "reveal your hand" because people tend to forget this sort of things. Formally, you should probably also add "In games using this...".

Similarly I think Price Controls might need a line and that same clause before the bottom half.

Toll road has these weird interaction with Black Market and Storyteller, I'm no expert but I think it simply gives you Actions in the middle of resolving another card (just like Throne Room can do). It might be worse than that though.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 03:37:26 pm by Accatitippi »
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 04:17:53 pm »
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Yeah, I'm not too worried about its self-piling ability. But I will have to think a bit about the opening issue. I wonder if it's worth making its base value 7 instead of 8, to leave it an open option to both. But I'm not sure yet how much a difference it really makes.
EDIT: I went ahead and changed it to base cost 7, minimum cost 1. This should solve both issues: 1) makes it available to both 5-2 and 4-3 openings, 2) makes it more difficult to spam buy (since it cannot cost nothing).


As to toll road, it'll clearly need a little FAQ accompanying it. But for Black Market, I think there's a clear cut answer: Black Market doesn't introduce a buy phase, it is still the action phase. So yeah, it is giving you actions in the middle of another card, and lets you play toll road for actions without using an action to play it. In that case, it doesn't produce any $ for the black market buy itself. Same goes for Storyteller--gives you the actions without using up an action, but draws you 0 cards because it doesn't produce $ in the action phase.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 06:24:05 pm by GeneralRamos »
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tristan

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 03:45:42 am »
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I like Toll Road. While Fool's Gold gives you you 1/4/9/13 Toll Road gives you (assuming that you do not use the actions for anything else) 1/3/6/10 (as Treasure / one as Action, one as Treasure / one as Action, two as Treasures / two as Actions, two as Treasures) so it is weaker. If you play 3 of them just for the sake of money they are equivalent to Silvers so it is not as crazily overpowed as Fool's Gold and and will mainly be used as degenerate village (that hedges against the risk of not being useful in a hand where you need no further actions via providing some coins)

About Suq, I do not think that it should cost less. It's duration effect is after all pretty strong, a Market plus a Lab.

About Price Controls, why limit its ability to one token? Embargo benefits, i.e. becomes a more interesting card, because of the lack of such a limit. On the other hand the Curses can run out whereas a price increase is permanent.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 09:16:45 am »
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I think Toll Road is a cool way of introducing a Trasure/Action card and it looks balanced as-is.

Land Surveyor needs an "In games using this"-clause. The way it's currently phrased it looks like you need to play a Land Surveyor in order to reduce its cost. I'm not sure why Peddler doesn't need it, though. Maybe it's because Peddler's cost reduction is passive while Land Surveyor requires you to do something you can't normally do in your Buy phase (like gaining a Duchess with a Duchy). In general it's a neat card. A cantrip + buy seems already more useful than Scout even without the Scout part.

Stockpile looks solid. Compared to Gear, it has some upsides and downsides. The reaction is quite strong (too strong maybe? I can't tell without playtesting).

Drawbridge seems okay but not super-interesting. +1 card without +action combined with the reaction makes a Big Money-game more favourable which is a bit lackluster.

Suq is very interesting. I wouldn't reduce the cost due to its considerably strong next-turn effect and self-synergy. Thanks for teaching me a new word :)

Price Controls: The card looks weird enough. You talk about Trade Route confuses me even more. It also didn't help I was thinking about +coin tokens from Adventures the whole time. Could you find some more elegant solution for your idea?
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2015, 09:41:26 am »
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Quote
About Price Controls, why limit its ability to one token? Embargo benefits, i.e. becomes a more interesting card, because of the lack of such a limit. On the other hand the Curses can run out whereas a price increase is permanent.

Yeah, embargo is nulled by the limit on curses. Price Controls is only nulled by depleting Price Controls, which is probably not going to happen often. Multiple price increases is a bigger impediment to buying than curses. Then you might end up with a province costing 12 or some other nonsense. A big shift in prices up would probably break certain cards and boards. But a $1 differential is a reasonable shift.

Quote
Price Controls: The card looks weird enough. You talk about Trade Route confuses me even more. It also didn't help I was thinking about +coin tokens from Adventures the whole time. Could you find some more elegant solution for your idea?
Well, I'd rather not introduce another type of physical token. This calls for using the same tokens as Trade Route and Pirate Ship. Trade Route was mentioned only because it too requires placing these tokens on supply piles so necessarily has some interaction with Price Controls. But the wording allows for their cohabitation, even if having them together changes both cards significantly.
In a game with both, all victory cards start with a token and thus cost one more than normal. Once the token is removed due to buying it (rules of Trade Route), Price Controls can be used to add the coin back. And so on and so on. But again, fringe case--only one pairing, and it doesn't break the game, just provides a different strategy (combo?).
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2015, 09:56:24 am »
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Now I understand. This interaction between Price Controls and Trade Route rubs me the wrong way, though. I think they shouldn't interact because their concepts are entirely different. Nothing wrong with introducing another token if it helps clearness.
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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2015, 11:51:08 am »
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I would change the minimum cost of Land Surveyor back to 0 to clear up interactions with other cost-reducers and reword "reveal your hand" to "reveal up to 3 Victory cards from your hand". This is an interesting card. I have no idea how strong it might be.

GendoIkari

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2015, 11:53:44 am »
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I'm still strongly opposed to an action-treasure unless Donald creates one. Though I admit I have trouble coming up with good arguments to support it at the moment. The only thing I can think of right now is that if you play it as part of playing Black Market or Storyteller, then as worded it will provide the action part of it, though players may expect it to behave like a treasure in that case. Then you have things like playing it during your buy phase but it still counting as an action in play for Peddler... again not unclear as worded, but not what people expect to happen when you play a treasure.
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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2015, 12:33:41 pm »
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Easy fix to Price Controls is, to have it only increase the price of non-Victory cards. Then it doesn't conflict with Trade Route at all.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2015, 12:42:21 pm »
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Now I understand. This interaction between Price Controls and Trade Route rubs me the wrong way, though. I think they shouldn't interact because their concepts are entirely different. Nothing wrong with introducing another token if it helps clearness.

I think the OP is wrong that there would be an interaction. Trade Route's rules say to put a "token" on each Victory card supply pile. Not a "coin token". Due to the components that come with Prosperity, you are likely to use a "coin token" for this purpose, but that's not part of the actual card text. So you could use any token you want. And there's definitely no reason that Trade Route should behave differently if you happen to use coin tokens as your tokens vs using a different token.
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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 03:30:25 pm »
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Compared to Haven, Suq has -1 card and -1 buy this turn, +$1 and +1 buy next turn, and can only save treasures. It could use a boost, maybe another +$1 next turn.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 04:54:25 pm »
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Now I understand. This interaction between Price Controls and Trade Route rubs me the wrong way, though. I think they shouldn't interact because their concepts are entirely different. Nothing wrong with introducing another token if it helps clearness.

I think the OP is wrong that there would be an interaction. Trade Route's rules say to put a "token" on each Victory card supply pile. Not a "coin token". Due to the components that come with Prosperity, you are likely to use a "coin token" for this purpose, but that's not part of the actual card text. So you could use any token you want. And there's definitely no reason that Trade Route should behave differently if you happen to use coin tokens as your tokens vs using a different token.

No, GeneralRamos said this:

Trade Route [...] necessarily has some interaction with Price Controls. But the wording allows for their cohabitation, even if having them together changes both cards significantly. In a game with both, all victory cards start with a token and thus cost one more than normal.

That's the kind of intentional interaction I'm not a fan of :P
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GendoIkari

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 05:00:41 pm »
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Now I understand. This interaction between Price Controls and Trade Route rubs me the wrong way, though. I think they shouldn't interact because their concepts are entirely different. Nothing wrong with introducing another token if it helps clearness.

I think the OP is wrong that there would be an interaction. Trade Route's rules say to put a "token" on each Victory card supply pile. Not a "coin token". Due to the components that come with Prosperity, you are likely to use a "coin token" for this purpose, but that's not part of the actual card text. So you could use any token you want. And there's definitely no reason that Trade Route should behave differently if you happen to use coin tokens as your tokens vs using a different token.

No, GeneralRamos said this:

Trade Route [...] necessarily has some interaction with Price Controls. But the wording allows for their cohabitation, even if having them together changes both cards significantly. In a game with both, all victory cards start with a token and thus cost one more than normal.

That's the kind of intentional interaction I'm not a fan of :P

And I think GeneralRamos is wrong. The card calls to use a "coin token". Trade Route calls to use a "token". There's no reason to think that these 2 would interact in any way. Also, Trade Route calls to move "the token" to the mat when a card is bought, "the token" clearly referring to the specific token that was added by its own setup instructions.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 08:00:11 pm »
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Quote
That's the kind of intentional interaction I'm not a fan of
Well, it wasn't an intentional interaction, just a problem I was aware of and worded so as to accommodate it. But it seems as though GendoIkari is right--the wording on Trade Route allows a distinction, so I needn't worry about that interaction. Shouldn't require any wording changes on Price Controls nonetheless, just easier FAQ.

As for Action-Treasures, it is hard to come up with an idea for one that wouldn't be easier done as an action with choice of +$. Toll Road met that criterion, but I am at pains to come up with another Action-Treasure that makes sense existing.

I have edited Suq to give +$2 on turn two, as recommended, and reset the minimum cost of Land Surveyor to $0. I also added the "in game using this" clause, but won't bother uploading a new image unless others want it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:01:37 pm by GeneralRamos »
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Re: Another set of custom cards
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2015, 11:25:17 pm »
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SCOUT DOESN'T NEED AN IMPROVEMENT!!!!!112/-/
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