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Author Topic: What combos with JoaT?  (Read 11760 times)

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philosophyguy

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What combos with JoaT?
« on: January 13, 2012, 05:47:08 pm »
+1

I've had JoaT in a number of games recently and haven't had much luck in finding cards that work well with Jack. What cards make Jack stronger than just a straight-up double Jack strategy?

Cards that haven't worked (or if they do, I'm misplaying them):
* Lab. I thought the non-terminal draw would be useful, but apparently not. Maybe the fact that Jack loses his drawing power after a Lab is played is enough to make Jack not useful?
* Loan. Since Jack draws, getting rid of Coppers should improve the money density of the cards Jack is drawing. Apparently not.
* Expand. This might have just been bad draws, but I thought picking up an Expand with $7 would be useful in gaining a tiebreaker victory card towards the end. It turned out that I was never in a position to Expand something without compromising my ability to purchase a Duchy/Province, so I got no benefit from having the Expand instead of a Gold.
* Upgrade. Same logic as Loan.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 05:52:01 pm »
+1

Ok. Well... Any non-terminal, Non-drawer, particularly a village (fishing village, native village possibly, festival, to a lesser extent lighthouse....). Sifters, most prominently warehouse, but also inn (which sorta fits both these categories) and cellar. Hamlet is pretty big-time good. Lookout maybe.
I'm sure there's more stuff too.....

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 06:02:19 pm »
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I don't think lookout will do it (much like upgrade). Jack gives you all the estate trashing ability you need, so these cards just become copper trashers, which doesn't help than much. I think lab should actually work, if you stick to one jack, since once you start drawing with the labs, the jack loses its ability to replace itself. Most any reasonably good 5 should work, as long as you stay on one jack for the handsize-increasing ones. Among the cheap cards, stick with handsize decreasing stuff.
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Copernicus

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 06:05:49 pm »
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Ok. Well... Any non-terminal, Non-drawer, particularly a village (fishing village, native village possibly, festival, to a lesser extent lighthouse....). Sifters, most prominently warehouse, but also inn (which sorta fits both these categories) and cellar. Hamlet is pretty big-time good. Lookout maybe.
I'm sure there's more stuff too.....

Oasis also works well.  Native Village is effective with a +buy.  I've tried Lookout, it just didn't work that well.  All it does is get rid of copper, and it requires a Jack in hand in order to power up.  Most of the time that could have been a Silver and used to get a Gold instead.

I've never had Jack/Nobles, that might be a useful option after the first Gold.

Jack also works well with the not-Cache $5 money, just because it's slightly more powerful than more Silver.

----

Bad cards with Jack are +hand cards (Wharf might be the exception) and other terminals.  It just plays poorly with actions in general, because the sifting ability of Jack is actually part of its power.

I also have no idea how Jack does in Colony games.
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Kahryl

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 06:09:33 pm »
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JoaT/Shanty Town works great. With JoaT, Shanty Town is either a village or a lab.. whichever helps you!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 06:13:22 pm »
+1

Ok. Well... Any non-terminal, Non-drawer, particularly a village (fishing village, native village possibly, festival, to a lesser extent lighthouse....). Sifters, most prominently warehouse, but also inn (which sorta fits both these categories) and cellar. Hamlet is pretty big-time good. Lookout maybe.
I'm sure there's more stuff too.....

Oasis also works well.  Native Village is effective with a +buy.  I've tried Lookout, it just didn't work that well.  All it does is get rid of copper, and it requires a Jack in hand in order to power up.  Most of the time that could have been a Silver and used to get a Gold instead.

I've never had Jack/Nobles, that might be a useful option after the first Gold.

Jack also works well with the not-Cache $5 money, just because it's slightly more powerful than more Silver.

----

Bad cards with Jack are +hand cards (Wharf might be the exception) and other terminals.  It just plays poorly with actions in general, because the sifting ability of Jack is actually part of its power.

I also have no idea how Jack does in Colony games.
Wharf is the exception because it's just even better for money than Jack is.
Not sure about how Jack plays with contraband. Probably a bit better than most cards do - very early, it's very plausible to get provinces, and then later double duchy isn't too bad to roll with. But also probably not THAT great - block provinces a lot, which isn't what you want.
In colony games, I expect single jack gets a leg up on most boards. Silver is still generally good, just not AS good, and there's often other stuff that, hey, is nice, but maybe not nice enough in province games. But is nice enough in colony games.

chwhite

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 06:15:26 pm »
+1

Along the same line of thinking as WW, Oasis is also good with JoaT.  A lot of cantrips in the $3 to $5 range are worth adding even if they don't shrink your hand, if they don't actively synergize with JoaT as much.  Tournament is still great in Jack games, just buy only one Jack instead of two.  Actually "just one Jack" is very frequently the better play, especially if you're adding other stuff.

Other approaches: Stuff with treasure: an opportunistic Mint is killer if you get a 5-copper hand on say Turns 3 or 4.  Or you could embrace the Silver flood and get value out of Bank or Stables (though Stables probably needs +Buy somewhere to really be worth it).  A lot of the more powerful attacks are worth getting alongside JoaT, despite JoaT's defensive abilities.  Maybe not Sea Hag and YW, but you definitely want Mountebank and Witch in your deck for instance. 

If there's a possibility for a more complex engine, with other trashing on the board, then you're probably at the point where skipping Jack is the better play.  And it is more often than you think!   But there's probably room for an early Jack for the money boost in a tiny percentage of engine games, along the lines of the Bureaucrat/Chapel opening.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 06:22:31 pm by chwhite »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 06:16:55 pm »
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JoaT/Shanty Town works great. With JoaT, Shanty Town is either a village or a lab.. whichever helps you!
It's okay, but... neither of those things is actually all that great in a jack deck. I mean, sure, you can play a second action if you use it as a village, but that's probably not much, if any benefit. And Labs drawing into Jack are not good, other labs are sorta nice, but... I'm not sure how much better than silver it is...

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 06:41:45 pm »
+2

I guess there are 2 ways of looking at Jack. There are "Jack decks" where Jack is your main action, and you get 2 along with support cards, and there are other "decks that open Jack", which actually includes a lot of stuff -- even stuff like lab or Rabble or things for colony games. A single Jack as an opening lets you trash your estates pretty reliably, and even though it may add a couple silvers more than you'd like, it's often better to have a couple extra silvers rather than a couple extra estates. So as long as your deck isn't going to be silver-averse, a single Jack can be a pretty good opening. Then the question is no longer "What combos with Jack?" but rather, "what strategies can use a Jack opening?"
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Forge!!!

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 07:40:30 pm »
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Does Spice Merchant? It would certainly seem to.
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DG

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 08:59:37 pm »
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Festival, market, lighthouse, fishing village, minion, and similar cards. Anything that adds as much value as silver and lets the jack look at the top of the deck then draw up to 5 cards. A scheme with a jack is better than two jacks. Venture, bank, royal seal, stash probably work really well. The simulator also seems to prefer a variety of Jack + other over two jacks, with a variety of other such as council room, monument, rabble, harvest, witch, merchant ship, even oracle. 

Most trashers probably aren't needed and offer minimal benefit if any.
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jomini

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 12:45:28 am »
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Combos well with JOAT?

Venture; average treasure will be a silver quick, this makes venture better than gold in most all respects.

Forge; +3 coin in deck value per turn is not to be overlooked; two silvers crunch to a gold and 3 to a pla. And don't be afraid to crunch a jack to  make a province/plat/colony, you can always buy another one later or swap to a new strategy with the high value card density that jack built.

Farmland; Jack can buy 6 coin hands almost from the start. These can be chained to form provinces and late game allow for the odd buy a farmland & turn a jack into a farmland. As jack has a spy function, this allows you to run greener with less trouble.

Chapel; Chapel/Jack is phenomaly good. Trash everything worth less than 3 coin (including the chapel) & cruise to victory. Better is a card that can use the silver as it is gained (e.g. having a 5 card hand of  village/silver/silver/jack/upgrade can buy two islands a turn & play one of them THIS turn.

Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.

Dukes; Jack can pile duchies & dukes pretty fast and not lose too much steam thanks to silver gains.

Upgrade; as previously mentioned, upgrade can like silver. Is there a nice self-replacing card for 4? Then upgrade loves jack.
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dondon151

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2012, 12:50:12 am »
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Chapel; Chapel/Jack is phenomaly good. Trash everything worth less than 3 coin (including the chapel) & cruise to victory. Better is a card that can use the silver as it is gained (e.g. having a 5 card hand of  village/silver/silver/jack/upgrade can buy two islands a turn & play one of them THIS turn.

Chapel / Jack is brutal with the right shuffle luck, but I'm pretty sure it gets beaten by DoubleJack.
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brokoli

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2012, 07:48:24 am »
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I agree with Jomini, about farmland. Farmland can Remodel Golds/Farmlands into provinces and silvers into duchies (in the late game). Very, very good combo.
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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2012, 08:44:55 am »
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Quote
Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.
What do you mean by this line? You can't play a Gardens... =\
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2012, 08:48:27 am »
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Quote
Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.
What do you mean by this line? You can't play a Gardens... =\
He means JoaT is 'a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it,' and you're virtually always able to afford a gardens in a JoaT deck.
I'm not sure that it combos any better than BM does though - probably worse...

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2012, 08:50:49 am »
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Quote
Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.
What do you mean by this line? You can't play a Gardens... =\
He means JoaT is 'a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it,' and you're virtually always able to afford a gardens in a JoaT deck.
I'm not sure that it combos any better than BM does though - probably worse...
Ahh ok. I almost thought I had been reading the card all wrong this whole time O.O I agree though, probably worse.
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jomini

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 11:07:11 am »
0

Quote
Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.
What do you mean by this line? You can't play a Gardens... =\
He means JoaT is 'a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it,' and you're virtually always able to afford a gardens in a JoaT deck.
I'm not sure that it combos any better than BM does though - probably worse...

The only time I've played it was against jester/cellar, so it was pretty much no-brainer there. I ran piles on duchies, gardens & curses.

Quote
Chapel / Jack is brutal with the right shuffle luck, but I'm pretty sure it gets beaten by DoubleJack.

Why do you say that? If your chapel & jack don't collide in the first three turns (a slightly better than even bet), then you buy a silver, jack a silver, and trash 4 or 5 cards. Worst case non-collision scenarios are - jack a silver, trash an estate, and trash 4 coppers. Alternatively, jack a silver, trash 3 copper & estate. If they do collide, you just trash 3 cards. Once you hit 4 coin in hand, buy a second jack, and eventually trash the chapel.
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jotheonah

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2012, 11:13:12 am »
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Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.

It only gains a card whenever you play it if you opt out of the trashing effect. Otherwise it leaves you with the same net number of cards.
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dondon151

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2012, 01:49:46 am »
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Why do you say that? If your chapel & jack don't collide in the first three turns (a slightly better than even bet), then you buy a silver, jack a silver, and trash 4 or 5 cards. Worst case non-collision scenarios are - jack a silver, trash an estate, and trash 4 coppers. Alternatively, jack a silver, trash 3 copper & estate. If they do collide, you just trash 3 cards. Once you hit 4 coin in hand, buy a second jack, and eventually trash the chapel.

I say it because it's a simulation that's been tested before; it was speculated that Jack wasn't trashing Chapel correctly (Chapel / Jack lost to DoubleJack 40-56), which may have accounted for its performance, but given this evidence I wouldn't conclusively assert that Chapel / Jack is a significant improvement on DoubleJack unless you're building an engine.
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jonts26

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2012, 02:07:48 am »
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Chapel/Jack loses to Double Jack because basically, you lose at least 2 turns in the chapel/jack game. One buying the chapel, and one trashing 3-4 cards. 2 Turns in a 13 turn game is hard to make up for in points.
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rinkworks

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2012, 11:45:20 am »
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Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.

It only gains a card whenever you play it if you opt out of the trashing effect. Otherwise it leaves you with the same net number of cards.

Gains, meaning, Jack gains a Silver every time you play it, thereby powering up any Gardens you have.
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rrenaud

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2012, 12:00:56 pm »
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I've tried to find synergistic cards with Jack of all Trades on the http://councilroom.com/supply_win page.  Maybe I should work on making the data easier to copy to the forum?  But JoaT seems pretty damn resistant to helping anything.

Maybe Inn is the card that gains the most?  +3% chance of buying, win stats basically the same, an extra .07 inns bought per game.

Maybe JoaT tends to shorten games, most cards are purchased less often when its available.

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jotheonah

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2012, 05:17:45 pm »
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Gardens; a reasonably cheap card that gains a card whenever you play it. Virtually always able to afford a garden.

It only gains a card whenever you play it if you opt out of the trashing effect. Otherwise it leaves you with the same net number of cards.

Gains, meaning, Jack gains a Silver every time you play it, thereby powering up any Gardens you have.

Yeah, I got that. But it also trashes a card every time you play it, if you choose to use that effect, for a net deck gain of zero. So If you use Jack in a Gardens deck, it's necessarily either not as good a card (since you can't use it's trashing effect) or it's not a Gardens enabler (since it doesn't affect a net gain in deck size).  So it's not as good as it looks on first glance (which is only as good as Bureaucrat more or less).
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jimjam

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2012, 02:38:53 am »
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Yeah, you wouldn't trash in a Gardens strategy (except possibly a couple curses). I'd say it's fairly close to Bureaucrat in this capacity, since the weak attack and top-decking vs filtered draw seems about even. But there are several situations where you'd much rather have JoaT, for example when getting plus buy with hamlet(!) and pawn, or when your opponent is going with Ghost Ship, Militia, or Minion, which can be quite damaging otherwise.
Head to head I'd imagine JoaT Garden would outdo Bureaucrat Garden, since the extra draw->faster cycling mitigates the top-decking, and the filtered draw to 5 makes Bureaucrat's attack actually a benefit.
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