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Author Topic: What combos with JoaT?  (Read 11951 times)

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Kuildeous

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2012, 08:04:24 am »
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Yeah, I got that. But it also trashes a card every time you play it, if you choose to use that effect, for a net deck gain of zero.

I've not played with Jack that often, so excuse my ignorance on the matter, but how many cards do you trash with Jack of All Trades? If I recall, you can't trash treasure with it, so it seems to me that you would use it to remove the three initial Estates (in a noncursing game). So you swap out three Estates for three Silvers. Everything beyond that is an extra card in your deck.
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Smartie

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2012, 09:25:28 am »
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I would safely say fishing village for $3 is one of the best! Otherwise usually just treasures, other than fools gold and talisman  :)
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Empathy

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2012, 10:11:49 am »
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Forge.

Obviously, if you have a village, it combos.

But even without the presence of a village, JoaT adds a lot of total value in your deck (read:silvers). This feeds your forge very nicely for non-BM JoaT strategies.

Basically, Forge allows you to open JoaT even if you are going for an engine deck. The JoaT provides the light initial trashing/defense against attacks/value creation, and forge then does the job of cleaning everything up into a neater deck.

This is somewhat of an extreme example: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120118-055013-d6018d4f.html

Extreme because Forge silver+silver => border village+torturer.

But just plain bordervillage+torturer loses against double jack/warehouse (a very strong deck).
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Kahryl

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2012, 11:22:29 am »
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Just played a JoaT game with Loan and Inn and it was crushingly good. Every time I played Inn I ended up getting a province AND two silvers.
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AJD

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2012, 02:15:10 am »
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But just plain bordervillage+torturer loses against double jack/warehouse (a very strong deck).

Oh man, Jack seems like an awesome counter to a Torturer engine. If you've got a Jack in hand you can basically be hit by three Torturers a turn at almost no cost to you.
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Asklepios

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2012, 04:59:43 am »
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I would safely say fishing village for $3 is one of the best! Otherwise usually just treasures, other than fools gold and talisman  :)

I agree with Fishing Village. I find it more often bails me out of drawing two jacks then it clogs me up by being blind drawn with no actions left. Possibly this is to do with the duration effect.

Lighthouse also seems to work well with a two Jack deck, I've found.

Other possible contenders which I am as yet not sure of are Crossroads, Native Village, Inn and Governor

For your consideration: Native Village and Governor with double jack on solo game, 4 provinces by turn 12:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/25/game-20120125-021029-0c6f4527.html

Having said that, on solo games you can of course use Governors alone to get 8 provinces in 11-14 turns...

Mostly this is from solo practice games, but I've found that Jacks + either fishing villages or lighthouses hits four provinces faster than just jacks.

As for Remake, Chapel, Loan, Moneylender or any other means of trashing coppers with a terminal or treasure, I'd agree its just too slow. A single Upgrade, on the other hand, seems to work fine, though there's always the problem of what you trash silver into when you're forced into that corner (as the deck kind of requires you to hit the Upgrade even if its done blindly). The window for me buying upgrade is pretty narrow though (both Jacks already, exactly $5, and too early for duchies), and I'd defy conventional wisdom by saying that you should upgrade estates over coppers preferentially, as that does more for your average$, even if Jack can trash those estates when it can't trash coppers.

A single Lookout, I think is actually pretty solid with Jack. Being a card down hurts less when you draw it with Jack, and between it and Jack you can pretty much guarantee that the first card you draw back is going to be decent.

Oh, and then there's the obvious combo with Jack... Gold!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 05:14:22 am by Asklepios »
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Geronimoo

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2012, 05:22:12 am »
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A lot of this has been worked out in the simulator:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1122.msg18068#msg18068

Basically Fishing Village, Lighthouse are all good, but Lookout and Loan and also Upgrade are just too slow (yes, you should buy a Silver over an Upgrade even if it's very early in the game).
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Asklepios

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2012, 05:57:15 am »
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A lot of this has been worked out in the simulator:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1122.msg18068#msg18068

Basically Fishing Village, Lighthouse are all good, but Lookout and Loan and also Upgrade are just too slow (yes, you should buy a Silver over an Upgrade even if it's very early in the game).

I note the first simulation prioritises copper over estates for Lookout's trashing. How do things look if we reverse that priority?

edit: Ignore this question! I see it was already answered
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Davio

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2012, 10:41:15 am »
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Maybe Bishop?

In that game vs First it looked like it was going to be a simulator game of 2 DoubleJacks going at it.
We both declined Familiar and Saboteur, but I picked up a Bishop.

I just wanted to try something to upset the mirror match and grab just a few extra VPs before we're both at 4 Provinces.

I did get an extra Gold which was why I was able to get an extra Province (5/3 split in my favor) and win the game, but I wonder if Bishop is a nice addition to pick up about midgame...
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Asklepios

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2012, 01:48:34 pm »
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Maybe Bishop?

In that game vs First it looked like it was going to be a simulator game of 2 DoubleJacks going at it.
We both declined Familiar and Saboteur, but I picked up a Bishop.

I just wanted to try something to upset the mirror match and grab just a few extra VPs before we're both at 4 Provinces.

I did get an extra Gold which was why I was able to get an extra Province (5/3 split in my favor) and win the game, but I wonder if Bishop is a nice addition to pick up about midgame...

It strikes me in that game that there was a lot of duchy buying on $6, and that in the final few hands the drawn duchies being gold would have made provinces.

Not saying that duchy was the wrong buy, but I wonder if the player's Doublejack suffered for going Duchy instead of pushing on for the Provinces.
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Davio

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Re: What combos with JoaT?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2012, 03:22:48 am »
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Well, once a few Provinces have gone (4 or so), the Duchy dance normally starts and one player can't give up on buying Duchies and afford to lose the split 5/3 (that's a whole Province!), because that would give the other player too big of an advantage. Sure you can buy a Gold, but once you're going green, there's no guarantee that that Gold will give you a Province over a Duchy and you'd rather have some points.
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