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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards  (Read 38645 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2015, 08:12:36 am »
0

Yeah, it's good, but there are two cases. Case 1 is where Border Village isn't the only village. Border Village is nice here. Not nearly nice enough to compete with these cards that are ridiculous. Here, you're overestimating the effect. The other situation is where Border Village is the only village, where its cost of $6 is a huge handicap. Here, you're just severely underestimating the opportunity cost of Border Village.

I don't think I'm overestimating the effect in case 1. It's a Village for $1 and no buy. That is ridiculous.

Yeah, it's a little bit clumsy as the only splitter, but it's still the only splitter so it's strong in those games just for that reason alone.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2015, 08:32:06 am »
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Adam, you say the 6+-cost cards are often game breaking, but there are a bunch of 5-cost cards that are as well. Border Village gets you those cards paired with a village, which is likely to make those 5-costs even more effective when combined with the rest of your deck.

I'm willing to say that almost every card I ranked above Border Village on this list I would prefer to have in my deck over village+fiver. Like, the exceptions are Events because the comparison doesn't make any sense, and Peddler because that comparison doesn't make sense either (she costs $0, not $6+). Of course this vastly depends on your deck and the fiver, but yeah, those cards are that good. They're better than fivers, which is why they cost more. Yeah there are tricks you can play with BV, but there are tricks with all of these other cards too.


I don't feel like we're getting anywhere with this, though. BV has been around for a while, we all know what it can do; but I don't feel like I got this one wrong.


I don't think I'm overestimating the effect in case 1. It's a Village for $1 and no buy. That is ridiculous.

This is, like, exactly the same thing as Port, isn't it? People seem to think Port is better than I do. Hmh.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2015, 09:08:42 am »
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I'm willing to say that almost every card I ranked above Border Village on this list I would prefer to have in my deck over village+fiver.
Border Village + Torturer >> Hunting Grounds
Border Village is great with any Smithy+ card, but is especially great with Torturer.  Kind of like Lost Arts, now that I think on it (no, the comparison isn't perfect).

I don't think I'm overestimating the effect in case 1. It's a Village for $1 and no buy. That is ridiculous.

This is, like, exactly the same thing as Port, isn't it? People seem to think Port is better than I do. Hmh.
Similar, but Border Village has three advantages and one disadvantage over Port.
+ Border Village is flexible.  It can gain (almost) any action card in the game or a Duchy.  Port gains Port=Village.
+ Border Village gains on-gain.  Port gains on-buy.  There are a lot of ways to gain that don't include buying - especially at 4-cost.
+ Border Village costs more: works better with trash for benefit.
- Port costs less: easier to get villages in deck early.  3 -> 4  coins is a smaller jump than 5 -> 6 coins

Both are great cards, but I think Border Village is more powerful - independent of cost.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2015, 09:44:19 am »
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I'm willing to say that almost every card I ranked above Border Village on this list I would prefer to have in my deck over village+fiver.
Border Village + Torturer >> Hunting Grounds
Border Village is great with any Smithy+ card, but is especially great with Torturer.  Kind of like Lost Arts, now that I think on it (no, the comparison isn't perfect).

Come on, man...

Of course this vastly depends on your deck and the fiver

I can think of 55 decks where I would want a HG instead of BV+Torturer, it depends on so much that singular examples are hardly worth talking about, which is why I'm trying not to use them. This whole thing is subjective in nature and yeah there's value in putting everybody's subjective thoughts into one big blob and looking at it -- that's why these card lists are so good. On the other hand, if everyone out there is playing Pirate Ship because it's so OP and DXV is saying "you guys, it's not that good" and winning by not buying Pirate Ship, then maybe people should think about it a little bit. Why is there this fundamental disagreement here? Maybe Pirate Ship is good and we're doing it wrong, who knows?


I don't think I'm overestimating the effect in case 1. It's a Village for $1 and no buy. That is ridiculous.

This is, like, exactly the same thing as Port, isn't it? People seem to think Port is better than I do. Hmh.
Similar, but Border Village has three advantages and one disadvantage over Port.
+ Border Village is flexible.  It can gain (almost) any action card in the game or a Duchy.  Port gains Port=Village.
+ Border Village gains on-gain.  Port gains on-buy.  There are a lot of ways to gain that don't include buying - especially at 4-cost.
+ Border Village costs more: works better with trash for benefit.
- Port costs less: easier to get villages in deck early.  3 -> 4  coins is a smaller jump than 5 -> 6 coins

Both are great cards, but I think Border Village is more powerful - independent of cost.
[/quote]

You've made a very compelling argument for why Border Village is better than Port. And I agree with you, Border Village is totally better than Port. I don't think anyone would disagree with you. I brought this up because I'm trying to think of why people are rating BV so much higher than I think it should be -- what is the disconnect in our thinking that results in such a huge difference?

I should point out that all four of these things are really, really minor. I think in particular the TfB argument is given way too much credence. But none of this really pertains to how good BV is compared to other $6 cards.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2015, 10:03:23 am »
+1

I should point out that all four of these things are really, really minor.

Being able to gain a terminal with your splitter is really, really enormous. Gaining a splitter with your splitter is tårta på tårta.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2015, 10:14:42 am »
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I should point out that all four of these things are really, really minor.

Being able to gain a terminal with your splitter is really, really enormous. Gaining a splitter with your splitter is tårta på tårta.

*looks up saying on Google*

Cake is delicious, man.

Just because you say again that it's "really, really enormous" doesn't mean it is, and that doesn't make me agree with you. I mean, you actually get to choose what else you're buying on your turn so if you need to gain two villages at once you just buy/gain two terminals some other way. If you change absolutely nothing at all about the way you build your deck then this is really good, but that's not practical.

I just think these things that are good about Border Village are "good" and not "game-breaking" or "enormous" like these other cards are. If I make a post saying the same thing again for every post someone else makes that says something different, it makes me more right, doesn't it?
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2015, 11:01:42 am »
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Just because you say again that it's "really, really enormous" doesn't mean it is, and that doesn't make me agree with you. I mean, you actually get to choose what else you're buying on your turn so if you need to gain two villages at once you just buy/gain two terminals some other way. If you change absolutely nothing at all about the way you build your deck then this is really good, but that's not practical.

I just think these things that are good about Border Village are "good" and not "game-breaking" or "enormous" like these other cards are. If I make a post saying the same thing again for every post someone else makes that says something different, it makes me more right, doesn't it?

Border Village automatically maintains a good splitters/terminals ratio in your deck, which is very important in the early game since it means you get to cycle faster. Port doesn't.  Admittedly, I might be underestimating how easy it is to plan your entire shuffle around Port. If that's the case, though, that just means I'm underestimating Port, not that I'm overestimating Border Village.

What other cards? I'm very willing to believe that the Events are better than Border Village, but there aren't a lot of game-breaking $6 non-Adventures cards. There's just Goons and KC, really. And they are higher than Border Village, as they should be. Hunting Grounds and Fairgrounds are strong cards, but Hunting Grounds has a weaker effect than Border Village and contributes towards your current deck composition in a more awkward way, and while Fairgrounds and Border Village both greatly help an engine that has a little bit of trouble being good enough otherwise, Border Village can enable an engine on some boards where Fairgrounds can't (although the argument could be made that Fairgrounds is more often enough to make the engine the best strategy — I don't think that it is, though). Then the rest are high mid-tier, weak or almost entirely useless.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2015, 12:24:32 pm »
+1

Border village is really strong. Games accelerate very quickly with border village on the board and often finish a turn faster than conventional village engines. An early six coin hand for a border village can be a decisive bit of luck in mirror. It supports engines even with limited +buy in the kingdom. The high cost of the border villages themselves are perfect for trash for benefit, with the added advantage that if you don't want to trash them on any particular turn then you can just play them to draw a new card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2015, 04:17:07 pm »
+1

I will say that Lost Arts seems insane from the one game of Adventures I played with it - I managed to play it on the Ranger supply pile and then got a Treasure Trove and gg.  I could very easily see ranking it above King's Court; it makes any terminal draw card ridiculously powerful, esp draw + attack like Torturer or Rabble.  It mitigates a village split in a game with a lot of excellent terminals.  And then there's all the other crazy stuff it makes possible. 
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