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Author Topic: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands  (Read 18810 times)

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2015, 02:20:11 pm »
+2

YMYOSL. This includes your starting hand.

Well, that's exactly what this is trying to accomplish.
No, this is trying to substitute shuffle luck with symmetry.
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Nyarpy

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2015, 04:58:39 pm »
+1

Since having played in a tournament where everyone stacked their starting deck how they wanted it, I've played all my IRL games that way and definitely prefer that.
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markusin

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2015, 05:03:04 pm »
0

To me, being able to stack your starting deck removes a very important part of the game. "Cultist/Rebuild/Mountebank are out? Guess I'm getting 5/2!" You're reducing the space of possible Dominion games you'll play.
If an option like this were to be made available, I would be strongly in favor of a starting deck arrangement being randomly chosen, and then everybody gets that same one.
Hrm good point.
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liopoil

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2015, 06:50:01 pm »
0

To me, being able to stack your starting deck removes a very important part of the game. "Cultist/Rebuild/Mountebank are out? Guess I'm getting 5/2!" You're reducing the space of possible Dominion games you'll play.
Why is this a bad thing?
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Awaclus

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2015, 09:23:22 pm »
+1

YMYOSL. This includes your starting hand.

Well, that's exactly what this is trying to accomplish.
No, this is trying to substitute shuffle luck with symmetry.

YMYOSL means eliminating shuffle luck (by playing well). This is exactly that.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2015, 10:40:04 pm »
+2

On a more serious note, I thinks it is a bad idea. That element of randomness is a big part of what makes Dominion such a unique and addictive game. It suggest the diversity of strategies, it sometimes leaves the bitter aftertaste of undeserved victory, it allows you to learn a whole lot of new coarse words, it even opens the possibilities for rookies who open Chapel/Scout ( ;) ) to still win their games. Take that randomness away and we might as well play Monopoly.

Identical starting hands doesn't really take away any randomness, all it takes away is asymmetry.

Since the possibility of asymmetrical starting hands in Dominion is up to random chance, enforcing identical starting hands really does take away randomness.
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Awaclus

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2015, 04:22:41 am »
0

Since the possibility of asymmetrical starting hands in Dominion is up to random chance, enforcing identical starting hands really does take away randomness.

Well, technically that's true, but it doesn't take away any randomness that you can plan for or try to mitigate.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2015, 06:17:26 am »
+2

Since the possibility of asymmetrical starting hands in Dominion is up to random chance, enforcing identical starting hands really does take away randomness.

Well, technically that's true, but it doesn't take away any randomness that you can plan for or try to mitigate.

You absolutely have to play to mitigate the effect of your opponent opening 5/2 with Witch/Cultist/Mountebank on the board or you having 5/2 when there is Familiar.  It's mitigation after the fact rather than trying to juggle something like terminal density in advance, but you do the same thing when you draw all of your Gold in the first hand of a reshuffle and have to play around your next few terrible hands.
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Awaclus

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2015, 09:14:31 am »
0

You absolutely have to play to mitigate the effect of your opponent opening 5/2 with Witch/Cultist/Mountebank on the board or you having 5/2 when there is Familiar.  It's mitigation after the fact rather than trying to juggle something like terminal density in advance, but you do the same thing when you draw all of your Gold in the first hand of a reshuffle and have to play around your next few terrible hands.

No matter how much you mitigate the effect of your opponent getting a better opening split, you can't change the fact that the odds were stacked against you before the game even began and there was nothing you could have done about it. When you draw all of your Gold in the first hand, you can only blame yourself for building your deck that way.
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theJester

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2015, 09:19:46 am »
0

I think it should definitely be an option, both for unrated and rated games. I know I would often play with it - playing a game where one player has much more favourable opening split is like watching a 100m race where one racer starts on 30m mark. If I'm on a winning side - my victory his somehow marred by the fact I had important starting advantage; if I'm on a losing side - it's frustrating to play catch-up with your opponent, just hoping he errs somewhere, but generally losing without being able to do much about it.

And it shouldn't be that hard to implement. Much like how there are three options now on MF's starting panel (play with AI, play with humans, play with either), they could easily make one more such triplet (play with identical starting hands, play with random starting hands, both are fine). If big majority of community are opposed to it - problem would solve itself: identical-starters would be too few in numbers, wouldn't be able to find enough similar-minded opponents and would have to switch to random-starters.
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qmech

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2015, 01:38:56 pm »
0

You absolutely have to play to mitigate the effect of your opponent opening 5/2 with Witch/Cultist/Mountebank on the board or you having 5/2 when there is Familiar.  It's mitigation after the fact rather than trying to juggle something like terminal density in advance, but you do the same thing when you draw all of your Gold in the first hand of a reshuffle and have to play around your next few terrible hands.

No matter how much you mitigate the effect of your opponent getting a better opening split, you can't change the fact that the odds were stacked against you before the game even began and there was nothing you could have done about it. When you draw all of your Gold in the first hand, you can only blame yourself for building your deck that way.

It's a difference in degree rather than kind.  You do not in fact make your own shuffle luck, and sometimes you get screwed over.
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schadd

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2015, 11:00:01 pm »
+10

one time my brother and i were playing chessmaster over LAN, i was in the basement and he was on the first floor. both computers were running windows XP, but the computer i was using was dubbed the 'old XP' because we got it sooner. the biggest attraction of playing over LAN was really, chess on the computer, different floors, what even is this century.
 
i wasn't old enough to have a playstyle for chess. at some point, you accumulate that sort of charm that comes with interacting with people over 20 and not having the immediate repulsive effect of, this person doesn't even have that nebulous additional syllable in his age, and thus you necessarily devise ways of describing yourself that inflate your intrigue; "i am a rather organized chess player." this described my brother, he likes to describe the way he does things, and he liked to be established on the board, have a layout of his pieces that he liked to look at and that he felt would consistently lead to success. i didn't have anything like that.

being 5 years older, at a point where that is a huge chunk of your life, is enough to be the favorite in a chess game. at some point, he had four queens, and was making the most out of his second estate, just clearing a massive portion of the board to house his queens, maybe escort his remaining pawns to the end. i saw an opportunity, his king was sort of nestled in some place that he wasn't paying mind to. i could mate it if a pawn was there, protected by my rook. there was one of his pawns, in the way, though. if i took the 5ish turns to advance it, not even considering that he might send a queen over to clean that whole situation up, he would still take it with that g'd pawn. so i had to take another 5ish turns yet to send a decoy pawn that he would take and clear a path for the real assassin.

i spent 10 turns after noticing the situation to just, move up a pawn. he didn't care, it was just a pawn, he had like 6 queens by now. i wasn't even paying attention to his festivities, just staring at the pawn, making sure that it would indeed be the mate that i thought it was. i was on the edge of my seat, probably, it was kind of a crummy seat; i was in the basement after all.

checkmate. he was dumbfounded. no takesies backsies, it was computerized, nothing he could do, other than try not to laugh amid his own distress and deny that it could even be possible.

that became my chess style. sneak up on you, be an opportunist, have no trouble playing from behind.

i voted no, unqualified.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2015, 11:02:10 pm »
0

YMYOSL. This includes your starting hand.

Well, that's exactly what this is trying to accomplish.
No, this is trying to substitute shuffle luck with symmetry.

YMYOSL means eliminating shuffle luck (by playing well). This is exactly that.
YMYOSL is defined as 'you make your own shuffle luck.'
By magically deciding whether or not you have a 5/2, you are making your own shuffle luck.

Why doesn't Adam come down and enlighten us?
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Awaclus

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2015, 11:26:38 pm »
0

It's a difference in degree rather than kind.  You do not in fact make your own shuffle luck, and sometimes you get screwed over.

Usually when you do get screwed over during the game, you could have done something differently to make it less likely or make it less bad if it does happen (it might or might not have been a good play to do so). When you get screwed over before the game, there's nothing you could have done about it. If it's a difference in degree, the degrees to which you have control over the situation are "not nothing" and "nothing", which pretty much does make it a difference in kind rather than degree.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2015, 11:41:47 pm »
+2

Removing asymmetric starting hands removes some space of all possible Dominion games and all possible strategic considerations from the game.

However, refusing to implement any given shitty fan card I come up with ALSO removes some space of all possible Dominion games and all possible strategic considerations from the game.  The same argument applies to, should we have an option to allow the 4$ lab with a discard, which Donald removed for poor balance in testing, to the game.

In both cases, Dominion is not starving for possible scenarios and variety - if you owned nothing but base Dominion, 4$ sifty lab might be a positive addition if you were going to play 300 games of base Dominion, and so would randomizing starting hands.

If you take out a large number of possible scenarios, but a large proportion of them are unfun unwanted scenarios, you get a net positive supposing the game is big enough to take the hit.

But, people who don't take Rebuild out of the randomizer deck when they play at home probably are going to want to play with randomized starting hands, naturally, if varied possible outcomes is important to them.

Donald's point about giving the underdog a shot is true and that's important for games with players of different skill level, but supposedly we're supposed to get similar skill levels using automatch, and if that hypothetically happened, that particular line of reasoning is weakened.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2015, 12:12:02 am »
0

Looking back at the poll, the wording isn't clear whether "yes" means "yes identical starting hands should be an available option" or "yes I personally prefer to play with identical starting hands" (or even "yes identical starting hands should be the only way to play", although I assume that's not what was meant).
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 12:13:05 am by blueblimp »
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2015, 08:55:23 am »
+1

Looking back at the poll, the wording isn't clear whether "yes" means "yes identical starting hands should be an available option" or "yes I personally prefer to play with identical starting hands" (or even "yes identical starting hands should be the only way to play", although I assume that's not what was meant).

Yes means that we should have the option of identical starting hands including pro games.

Anyway, as pops says two posts above, when playing against players of the same skill, getting a different hand can often be the difference of life or death for that game.

Also, someone mentioned something about mirrors. However, in many cases going the mirror is the correct move. For instance if Mountebank is on the board, I still want to get it even if my opponent opens it. But, as is too often the case, him getting to get a couple of plays off it before I even get to buy my first MB can have a serious impact on the game.

Some extreme openings are often game over such as MB/Chapel or any 5-cost junker with Chapel, probably Mint/Alms, 3/4 on a board with weak $5s, and I could go on.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2015, 12:06:31 pm »
0

When playing for fun I think everything should be random, kingdom selection and starting hands.

For tournaments though I think a lucky or unlucky 5/2 opening can make too much difference. I would advocate players being able to choose their starting hand. Analysing the board and deciding whether a 4/3 or 5/2 opening is preferable is adding some skill. I do not agree with forcing the same hands. If someone wants to open 4/3 and their opponent would rather start 5/2, why shouldn't they be able to start that way?

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2015, 02:17:01 pm »
+4

Having identical starting decks actually increases first player advantage. Normally the second player can tailor his buys in response to the first players' openings. But with identical starting decks, Player 1 gets part of that advantage, since they know what Player 2 can afford ahead of time (on top of the first-player advantages they already enjoy).
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Donald X.

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2015, 03:59:31 pm »
+9

Some extreme openings are often game over such as MB/Chapel or any 5-cost junker with Chapel, probably Mint/Alms, 3/4 on a board with weak $5s, and I could go on.
It turns out that there continues to be luck after the opening. Sometimes they open Mountebank / Chapel and then shuffle them to the bottom. The game snowballs, but they aren't just guaranteed everything they want because they got the first thing they wanted.

I have to feel that identical starting hands just shifts the moaning a step down to the first shuffle. It's a better target anyway; it matters a lot whether or not there's an exciting $5 or whatever. It's a little less visible to normal players but looms so large.

Any particular element of randomness in a game with randomness might be one we were better off without. Man the idea isn't to have randomness that makes the game suck. And as noted the game has plenty of ways to give the worse player a lucky edge. Having a variety of openings should be justified.

And it is! The intention was in fact to have a variety of openings. It's just hugely positive. We start with different cards more often, which makes the game more interesting. I make decisions without knowing what you would have done, because I got 4/3 and you got 3/4.

I think you could make a case for forcing non-identical hands. Let's always have that good thing! You could have an app generate the starting hands for you; otherwise it's a little awkward IRL. Obv. it only works for 2-4 players, with a mild exception for Shelters. And then you'd have extra information when making your opening buy. And you'd see 2/5 and 5/2 hands way more often. Still it has a certain something. Some games just start with different positions, bam, and the potential for heavy mirroring gets cited by some as an issue they have with Dominion. With Cosmic Powers or whatever, the best move for me is no longer necessarily the best move for you. Of course the natural progress of the game normally gets us some of that, hooray.

I have to think that your problem is just, who is this 13-year-old I'm playing against, oh man he's going to act like he's better than me because he got lucky. Try playing against friends! People win Dominion games due to luck sometimes; it's something to come to terms with, and once you have, you don't need to come to terms with it an extra time specifically for the luck of the opening split.

Or maybe your problem is just that certain openings are extra strong. It's possible that at some point we will have tiny "do not want" lists online and you can put Mountebank on yours. IRL, just don't play with it. Me, I've beaten turn one Mountebank, but maybe I just got lucky.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2015, 07:24:24 pm »
0

Some extreme openings are often game over such as MB/Chapel or any 5-cost junker with Chapel, probably Mint/Alms, 3/4 on a board with weak $5s, and I could go on.
It turns out that there continues to be luck after the opening. Sometimes they open Mountebank / Chapel and then shuffle them to the bottom. The game snowballs, but they aren't just guaranteed everything they want because they got the first thing they wanted.

I have to feel that identical starting hands just shifts the moaning a step down to the first shuffle. It's a better target anyway; it matters a lot whether or not there's an exciting $5 or whatever. It's a little less visible to normal players but looms so large.

YES! I have always felt like the variance in the first shuffle trumps the opening split, and certainly it would be ridiculous to "de-randomize" that first shuffle.

But now I'm curious: has anyone attempted to quantify the size of these effects using log data?

Me, I've beaten turn one Mountebank, but maybe I just got lucky.

This was brilliant.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2015, 08:08:33 pm »
+2

Some extreme openings are often game over such as MB/Chapel or any 5-cost junker with Chapel, probably Mint/Alms, 3/4 on a board with weak $5s, and I could go on.
It turns out that there continues to be luck after the opening. Sometimes they open Mountebank / Chapel and then shuffle them to the bottom. The game snowballs, but they aren't just guaranteed everything they want because they got the first thing they wanted.

I have to feel that identical starting hands just shifts the moaning a step down to the first shuffle. It's a better target anyway; it matters a lot whether or not there's an exciting $5 or whatever. It's a little less visible to normal players but looms so large.

Any particular element of randomness in a game with randomness might be one we were better off without. Man the idea isn't to have randomness that makes the game suck. And as noted the game has plenty of ways to give the worse player a lucky edge. Having a variety of openings should be justified.

And it is! The intention was in fact to have a variety of openings. It's just hugely positive. We start with different cards more often, which makes the game more interesting. I make decisions without knowing what you would have done, because I got 4/3 and you got 3/4.

I think you could make a case for forcing non-identical hands. Let's always have that good thing! You could have an app generate the starting hands for you; otherwise it's a little awkward IRL. Obv. it only works for 2-4 players, with a mild exception for Shelters. And then you'd have extra information when making your opening buy. And you'd see 2/5 and 5/2 hands way more often. Still it has a certain something. Some games just start with different positions, bam, and the potential for heavy mirroring gets cited by some as an issue they have with Dominion. With Cosmic Powers or whatever, the best move for me is no longer necessarily the best move for you. Of course the natural progress of the game normally gets us some of that, hooray.

I have to think that your problem is just, who is this 13-year-old I'm playing against, oh man he's going to act like he's better than me because he got lucky. Try playing against friends! People win Dominion games due to luck sometimes; it's something to come to terms with, and once you have, you don't need to come to terms with it an extra time specifically for the luck of the opening split.

Or maybe your problem is just that certain openings are extra strong. It's possible that at some point we will have tiny "do not want" lists online and you can put Mountebank on yours. IRL, just don't play with it. Me, I've beaten turn one Mountebank, but maybe I just got lucky.

First, I don't have a problem if a 13-year old opens 5/2 and beats me and thinks he's better than me. Good for him. My main point I am raising here is that while I understand random luck is an element of Dominion, I would rather mitigate as much of that luck as possible and make it more skill intensive.

Sure irl I can play however I want. However, online, I have played thousands of games. At this point, for me, it is not about putting Mountebank on a 'do not list' online. I actually like the card.  Now, if I had only played a few hundred games, I probably would not care, but more often than not, you start a game, and its gg whether you realize it or not. Almost always, I play through a game out of a stubbornness despite having a huge disadvantage. Sure, sometimes I beat a turn 1 MB opening. But, usually that's because of my opponent getting bad shuffle luck or not playing well. Assuming the opponent is of similar skill to me, pretty much they would have to get bad shuffle luck.

Now, nothing can really change MB and Chapel both missing the shuffle. However, the game can be changed in such a way that the opening hands can be changed whether it be through having identical hands or allowing players to choose what starting hands to start with.

I love your game, by the way. Otherwise, I wouldn't have even started this poll. I'm not trying to ruin or change your game, but make it more enjoyable for those who feel the same way about starting hands as I do. I know that you play Magic but remember, as well, that EDH/Commander was created by fans of the game that wanted to create their own variant. Now, EDH is insanely popular and makes a ton of money for Wizards of the Coast. Obviously, players  having whatever hands they want to start won't make more money for you, but it isn't as big of a change as creating EDH either.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2015, 08:27:03 pm »
+4

My main point I am raising here is that while I understand random luck is an element of Dominion, I would rather mitigate as much of that luck as possible and make it more skill intensive.

New variant for you then: every time you would shuffle the deck, instead you get to decide the order exactly.  (Bring on the Chancellor master decks.)

You probably don't actually want to mitigate as much of the luck as possible, because it's possible to mitigate pretty much all of it.  It just wouldn't make a good game.  You can have a variant to choose your starting hand.  OK, cool, but why stop there?  After your first reshuffle, maybe you get to peek at your bottom two cards (or have a third party do it or whatever) and if both of your opening buys are there, you get to mulligan!  But actually, just one opening buy on the bottom would still be a distinct disadvantage then, so maybe mulligan that too.  And so on.

The opening split probably doesn't matter as much as luck of the first shuffle, or other shuffle luck that accumulates as you go.  However, it's one of the most visible pieces of luck in the game, which is why it gets more complaints than it really warrants.

I'd like to add that merely mitigating luck doesn't make a game more skill intensive.  They're not mutually exclusive like that.  A luckless game isn't necessarily high skill, and a highly luck-driven game can still be skill intensive.  I once again link to this excellent talk by Richard Garfield:

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2015, 08:50:11 pm »
+1

My main point I am raising here is that while I understand random luck is an element of Dominion, I would rather mitigate as much of that luck as possible and make it more skill intensive.

Please keep your Smogon out of my Dominion. I really don't want to have to find another favorite game.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2015, 09:22:09 pm »
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My main point I am raising here is that while I understand random luck is an element of Dominion, I would rather mitigate as much of that luck as possible and make it more skill intensive.

Please keep your Smogon out of my Dominion. I really don't want to have to find another favorite game.

Genuinely curious, what did Smogon do to mitigate luck in Pokιmon? Was it when they banned stuff like those 1-hit KO moves and attacks like Swagger?
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