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Author Topic: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands  (Read 18822 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« on: November 26, 2015, 08:57:44 pm »
+1

I am a huge advocate for identical starting hands. I feel that as it is Dominion already has a ton of variance as it is. There are few ways to control this, but identical starting hands is one option we have. I know there are people against it, but I don't feel I have heard a compelling argument as to why we should not have the option available for those who want it. The main argument it is that identical starting hands is a variant. Okay, that's true, but below I will list my reasons as to why we should have it as a option.

1. For Tournaments, it makes the tournament more balanced
2. Makes Pro Games more balanced (also alternating starts between who wins and loses would help)
3. With Adventures it is possible to get even swinger openings that just outright win than even before
    Examples: Mint/Alms, Inheritance/, Goons/ (hey, I've done this before with Baker, not nice at all), Doctor Overpay of 5 or greater (7 would just be insane), etc. And, that's not counting openings that already are unfair like Mint/FG, Mountebank/Chapel or even Mountebank in general.
4. Eliminate swingy openings as mentioned above
5. Reduces luck

Now, I know some people really like the luck-base of Dominion, but it really sucks when you play against someone who plays sub-optimally and just kicks your ass because they got a God opening and there is nothing you can do to make a comeback.

So, anyway, please vote and explain your reasoning for your vote. If this poll is positive towards identical starting hands, I will pass it on to MF. If not and if I'm in a minority, I will just let it die.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 09:21:34 pm »
+1

I voted no. I feel like it would just make mirror matches more common, and those are my least favorite games. Ironically, they're my least favorite games because they feel way more luck-based; we pursued the same strategy, but you got luckier, so you won. Yay.
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Infthitbox

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 09:22:41 pm »
+1

I would rather an option for board review and deck stacking if both opted in.
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jsh357

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 09:28:37 pm »
+11

I think as long as both players agree with it, it should be allowed. Like anything else.
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blueblimp

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 09:29:41 pm »
+1

You can't ever go too wrong by copying whatever isotropic did, and in this case, I think it offered identical starting hands as an option, but only for non-automatch games. I assume that's what you meant by "yes, but for unranked and Tournament only", so that's what I voted.

Although I don't really care about identical starting hands, I have sympathy because I'm also a fan of a variant that hasn't been supported post-isotropic.
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werothegreat

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 09:48:01 pm »
+1

I'd like there to be an option to select.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 11:18:46 pm »
+1

If it's an option for automatched games, people will whine about sometimes getting matched with players who don't have it selected.
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Kirian

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 11:36:58 pm »
0

If it's an option for automatched games, people will whine about sometimes getting matched with players who don't have it selected.

Only if there is no "only play with this on" option.
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blueblimp

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 11:48:00 pm »
+4

If it's an option for automatched games, people will whine about sometimes getting matched with players who don't have it selected.
Good thing you're here to whine about their complaints without them even needing to exist.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 12:03:59 am »
0

If it's an option for automatched games, people will whine about sometimes getting matched with players who don't have it selected.
Good thing you're here to whine about their complaints without them even needing to exist.

Happy to help.

If it's an option for automatched games, people will whine about sometimes getting matched with players who don't have it selected.

Only if there is no "only play with this on" option.

Yes, otherwise it further fractures the player base.
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yed

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 12:45:01 am »
0

No, it means more mirrors.
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Donald X.

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 01:06:59 am »
+25

Now, I know some people really like the luck-base of Dominion, but it really sucks when you play against someone who plays sub-optimally and just kicks your ass because they got a God opening and there is nothing you can do to make a comeback.
I feel like you're only considering half the people involved in that game! As the worse player, it's fantastic to know that you at least have some chance of winning, yes even if it just means you got lucky. As the better player, you win so much anyway, you can afford to give up a win here and there to the worse player. Also it can be good times for the better player to try to overcome difficulties to win, at least if they don't hate their opponent. If you hate your opponent, okay, it sucks if they get lucky and win. Friend/enemy lists should help some there.

As usual I prefer the game the way I made it, and I think online it's important to present the best possible game, i.e. the one with varying openings. Despite that I don't mind if tournament games have an option that people running in and playing in tournaments may prefer. In a tournament you may want to determine the better player even at the expense of making the game worse. If I were running an online tournament myself, I wouldn't use it though. The players would play Real Dominion, and I would even out luck some by having several games per round.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 01:18:30 am »
+2

No. It's gotta be random. What's next, 'should each person have to have the same shuffle luck?'

YMYOSL. This includes your starting hand.
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Awaclus

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 03:12:49 am »
+2

YMYOSL. This includes your starting hand.

Well, that's exactly what this is trying to accomplish.
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ehunt

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 03:53:55 am »
+2

I don't see anything wrong with having an option for people that mutually want it. That said, I don't like identical starting hands, and would really hate it if it became a de facto default. For example, the community norm, which used to be firmly anti-point-counter, has shifted so far toward point counter that there are even tournaments where you have to play with the point counter, and I wouldn't want to see something like that happen again.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 04:08:51 am »
+1

Why only identical starting hands? I have more suggestions:

  • On turn 3 or 4, before you play your Swindler, your opponents must put a Copper from their decks on top of it.
  • If you open Chapel your turn 3 hand automatically becomes Ch E E E C.
  • After buying a Province in a Tournament game you immediately shuffle the deck and draw your Tournament with a Province on the next turn.
  • If you finish your action phase with playing a terminal draw card it can't draw any Action cards for you.
  • In a game with no KC and +buy your deck can't produce exactly 7 coins.
  • Black Market deck always consists of 5x Chapel, 5x Fishing Village, 5x Witch, 5x Hunting Grounds, 5x Markets.

On a more serious note, I thinks it is a bad idea. That element of randomness is a big part of what makes Dominion such a unique and addictive game. It suggest the diversity of strategies, it sometimes leaves the bitter aftertaste of undeserved victory, it allows you to learn a whole lot of new coarse words, it even opens the possibilities for rookies who open Chapel/Scout ( ;) ) to still win their games. Take that randomness away and we might as well play Monopoly.

Awaclus

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 04:15:00 am »
+1

On a more serious note, I thinks it is a bad idea. That element of randomness is a big part of what makes Dominion such a unique and addictive game. It suggest the diversity of strategies, it sometimes leaves the bitter aftertaste of undeserved victory, it allows you to learn a whole lot of new coarse words, it even opens the possibilities for rookies who open Chapel/Scout ( ;) ) to still win their games. Take that randomness away and we might as well play Monopoly.

Identical starting hands doesn't really take away any randomness, all it takes away is asymmetry.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 05:00:46 am »
0

I think it should definitely be allowed in unranked games, and then each tournament can have its own rules.
On a somewhat related note, it would be cool to be able to specify starting hands when setting up an unranked game. Lately I wanted to replay a board against a bot where the bot opened Mint/Chapel and beat me (oh the shame!) but I couldn't reproduce it since I had to restart the game again and again, and when the bot eventually opened 5/2, it didn't buy mint. Then I gave up.
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MdLC

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 10:28:35 am »
+3

Balance is boring! As both a spectator and player, I like the occasional drama of the different starting hands. It is the only element of luck that cannot be influenced by the players. And yes, it can decide a few games, but only a few. Overall, I wouldn't want to see identical starting hands be a commonly played variant of Dominion.

If I put aside my disagreement, I also think the proposal for identical starting hands suffers from being a halfway measure on the way toward choosing your own starting hand. Identical starting hands reduces luck without comparatively increasing the skill involved. A chosen starting hand both reduces luck and increases the skill involved, especially in kingdoms where the best opening hand is debatable.

markusin

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 11:27:27 am »
+1

Balance is boring! As both a spectator and player, I like the occasional drama of the different starting hands. It is the only element of luck that cannot be influenced by the players. And yes, it can decide a few games, but only a few. Overall, I wouldn't want to see identical starting hands be a commonly played variant of Dominion.

If I put aside my disagreement, I also think the proposal for identical starting hands suffers from being a halfway measure on the way toward choosing your own starting hand. Identical starting hands reduces luck without comparatively increasing the skill involved. A chosen starting hand both reduces luck and increases the skill involved, especially in kingdoms where the best opening hand is debatable.

I remember hearing about some tournaments that let you choose your starting hand. That seems ideal to me as it allows you to have the fun opening whatever that may be.

I wouldn't want that to be standard in pro-mode play though. In tournament settings there aren't enough games played for balance through many games played to take effect, but that isn't the case online.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:31:21 am by markusin »
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Kirian

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 11:44:40 am »
+4

In the end, pro or con, I don't trust MF to add 3 and 3 and not get "A suffusion of yellow," so I suspect the point is moot.
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popsofctown

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2015, 01:31:36 pm »
+2

Automatch doesn't work well enough for me to use the product, so I don't know why features like this even matter
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popsofctown

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2015, 01:34:03 pm »
+1

Actually, if anything, the failings of automatch indicate this should not be allowed until automatch is fixed.  Randomness makes more of the awfully matched games actually close, kinda what Donald was talking about.

That said my last game I drew 3/4 and my 5/2 opponent bought Witch during her third shuffle.

But I mean, that 5/2 gave me a chance that she might decide Witch feels like a better idea than Council Room because it's Friday or something.

Whatever, Hearthstone time.
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liopoil

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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2015, 01:36:04 pm »
+1

After playing in the Uconn tournament, I love the idea of stacking your starting deck and would not mind playing every single game of Dominion from now on like that.
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Re: Should Dominion Online Have Identical Starting Hands
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2015, 02:19:08 pm »
+5

To me, being able to stack your starting deck removes a very important part of the game. "Cultist/Rebuild/Mountebank are out? Guess I'm getting 5/2!" You're reducing the space of possible Dominion games you'll play.
If an option like this were to be made available, I would be strongly in favor of a starting deck arrangement being randomly chosen, and then everybody gets that same one.
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