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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards  (Read 88692 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #175 on: November 23, 2015, 07:47:39 pm »
0

Soothsayer is not always awful in BM and usually pretty good in slogs, but here it's higher than some way better BM cards such as Vault and Embassy, a lot higher than Duke which is usually the main card your slog is based around (Soothsayer isn't a slog on its own), and higher than some very good engine components whose presence usually means that any kind of a BM strategy won't be viable anyway. If it's not too high, then almost everything from parts 4 and 5 are too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #176 on: November 23, 2015, 07:52:03 pm »
+3

Also, on a Witch/Soothsayer board, the optimal play is to pick up one of each - when I ran simulations a few months ago, it beat both DoubleWitch and DoubleSoothsayer.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #177 on: November 23, 2015, 07:56:11 pm »
+3

Also, on a Witch/Soothsayer board, the optimal play is to pick up one of each - when I ran simulations a few months ago, it beat both DoubleWitch and DoubleSoothsayer.

How often do you play boards with no cards other than Witch and Soothsayer on them?
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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #178 on: November 24, 2015, 09:51:21 am »
0

Also, on a Witch/Soothsayer board, the optimal play is to pick up one of each - when I ran simulations a few months ago, it beat both DoubleWitch and DoubleSoothsayer.

that's really interesting, I don't have a good mental model for why that should be.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #179 on: November 24, 2015, 10:20:52 am »
+2

Also, on a Witch/Soothsayer board, the optimal play is to pick up one of each - when I ran simulations a few months ago, it beat both DoubleWitch and DoubleSoothsayer.

that's really interesting, I don't have a good mental model for why that should be.

Presumably Soothsayer is better early since getting early Gold is really good in BM, and Witch is better late once you have some Gold and +2 cards can be worth a lot.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #180 on: November 24, 2015, 01:59:59 pm »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #181 on: November 24, 2015, 02:11:22 pm »
+3

Nice. If you switch Margrave and Minion, I had basically the same top 10.

The huge disparity between Weighted and Unweighted on Butcher is pretty telling, I think. I see players ignoring it often on boards where it's great.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #182 on: November 24, 2015, 02:24:00 pm »
0

Nice. If you switch Margrave and Minion, I had basically the same top 10.

The huge disparity between Weighted and Unweighted on Butcher is pretty telling, I think. I see players ignoring it often on boards where it's great.

I was just about to make the same comment about Butcher. It looks like a glorified Remodel, but it's so much more. You want it in big money, and it's really handy in engines.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #183 on: November 24, 2015, 02:26:32 pm »
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I had the same top 10, except I had Count at #5 and Governor at #16. I had Ghost Ship a lot lower; I think I just hate it for causing AP and slowing the game in general.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #184 on: November 24, 2015, 02:30:21 pm »
0

My top 10 is the same except I have Summon and IGG in there instead of Torturer and Minion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #185 on: November 24, 2015, 03:14:05 pm »
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I would put Ghost Ship way higher.  Specifically, it should be above Margrave.  Yes, there are certain defenses against it that can't be used against Margrave (Herald, Vagrant, Wishing Well, Scout, ...).  But it gets better in slogs.  Margrave gets worse in slogs (lets your opponent sift junk).

I would put Butcher above Upgrade.  Butcher is arguably just as effective as Upgrade early (turns Estates into stuff), and it is similar to Expand in that is has great end-game heroics.  Upgrade doesn't have much end-game heroics other than maybe turning $4s into Duchies.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #186 on: November 24, 2015, 03:28:09 pm »
0

I would put Ghost Ship way higher.  Specifically, it should be above Margrave.  Yes, there are certain defenses against it that can't be used against Margrave (Herald, Vagrant, Wishing Well, Scout, ...).  But it gets better in slogs.  Margrave gets worse in slogs (lets your opponent sift junk).

I would put Butcher above Upgrade.  Butcher is arguably just as effective as Upgrade early (turns Estates into stuff), and it is similar to Expand in that is has great end-game heroics.  Upgrade doesn't have much end-game heroics other than maybe turning $4s into Duchies.

Agree on Ghost Ship. I'm not sure if it should be a lot higher, but I like it over Margrave.

Disagree on Butcher > Upgrade. Butcher is really good, but Upgrade is better. The strength of Upgrade isn't turning Estate into Silver, it's the flexibility of choosing to either trash Copper or do Estate -> Silver or card 1 -> card 2, all on a non-terminal action.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #187 on: November 24, 2015, 03:54:38 pm »
0

I would put Ghost Ship way higher.  Specifically, it should be above Margrave.  Yes, there are certain defenses against it that can't be used against Margrave (Herald, Vagrant, Wishing Well, Scout, ...).  But it gets better in slogs.  Margrave gets worse in slogs (lets your opponent sift junk).

I would put Butcher above Upgrade.  Butcher is arguably just as effective as Upgrade early (turns Estates into stuff), and it is similar to Expand in that is has great end-game heroics.  Upgrade doesn't have much end-game heroics other than maybe turning $4s into Duchies.

Agree on Ghost Ship. I'm not sure if it should be a lot higher, but I like it over Margrave.

Disagree on Butcher > Upgrade. Butcher is really good, but Upgrade is better. The strength of Upgrade isn't turning Estate into Silver, it's the flexibility of choosing to either trash Copper or do Estate -> Silver or card 1 -> card 2, all on a non-terminal action.

I think I'd put Butcher over Upgrade. Butcher is terminal, but just infinitely more flexible. It's may not be as good as Upgrade in an engine, but its mere presence makes non-engine strategies more viable since it can essentially be, "Trash a Province from the Supply; take 2 Coin tokens." Or it can just be "Take 2 Coin tokens."
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #188 on: November 24, 2015, 04:11:12 pm »
+1

Hunted Woods> Ghost ship for sure. THe attack is devastating against draw engines without discarders. The rest of the card is only slightly worse than wharf.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 05:40:37 pm by Limetime »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #189 on: November 24, 2015, 04:31:04 pm »
+20

Hey y'all. These posts seem to be well-received, so here I go. It's time to see how many of my upvotes were due to my hilarious Young Witch pun last time and how many of them are from actual Dominion content.

Full disclosure, I didn't rank Knights so I've adjusted some of my rankings by one to account for that. This time I sorted the cards by the difference between my ranking and the community's ranking, then made a cutoff point based on what I thought was worth talking about, which turns out to be 14 ranks. This ends up being roughly the same percentage-points value as the other costs, which is kind of neat (and expected). So this list is sorted in increasing order by how much I disagree with the community's ranking; let's get to it.

I ranked Royal Carriage 15th, here it's 29th.
I ranked Throne Room higher than most did on the $4 list, but it wasn't enough to show up. If Throne Room cost $5, I would probably put it above quite a few entries on this list and a lot of people would disagree with me. I often joke that the text on Throne Room reads "take the best card on the board, +1 Action and then that" and though that's a slight exaggeration, it really isn't for Royal Carriage. Royal Carriage is a really, really, really good card and I expect it to be ranked much higher on the next cards list.

I ranked Duke 27th, here it's 41st.
Hey guess what, I still like green cards more than the general consensus! Wheee!

I ranked Inn 39th, here it's 53rd.
Here's my theory: Develop is underrated because a lot of people just don't know how to use it to its best potential. So is Procession, and so is Inn. How do you play it better? Well that's a really difficult question to answer and I don't think I can answer it very well so I will just let my bold statement stand as slightly speculative.

I ranked Swamp Hag 34th, here it's 19th.
19th, eh? I like Swampy right where I put her. Gaining a Curse on your own terms is not nearly as painful as having it force-fed into your discard pile. Sure, it's close and it's an Adventures card so there's not as much collective experience with it.

I ranked Giant 68th, here it's 51st.
I like Giant where he is too, maybe this is a case of people underestimating his cost -- it really takes two cards and two actions to get that effect, and while it's good, it's really slow. The biggest thing Giant has going for him is the fact that he's an attack, which means there will always be boards where he's going to be relevant.

I ranked Trade 52nd, here it's 69th.
All right, here's one I can finally speak a little more strongly about: Trade is a lot better than 69th on this list for sure. Silver is a good card, and it's way better than the junk you're going to trash to it. Trade is a hard counter to junking attacks, which means that because Trade exists, your opponent can be better off because you junked them than they would be if you hadn't. Yellow=Purple is an exaggeration 99% of the time and just plain silly over 50% of the time (that's a big statement and I'm prepared to back it up), and Silver is one of the best yellows around. I actually think I've underrated Trade now that I think about it again.

I ranked Band of Misfits 36th, here it's 54th.
Hmm, this one I might have overrated, but I wouldn't put it all the way down at rank 54. Eh, this one is probably closer than it seems but BoM can be quite good a lot of the time, I'd say it's closer to 36 than it is to 54.

I ranked Vault 58th, here it's 39th.
Whoa, I really don't see what's so good about Vault, like what am I missing here? I like where I put it and I really don't see why Vault+Gold=Province puts it above so many other cards. This one really baffles me...

I ranked Artificer 64th, here it's 45th.
Once again, it's an Adventures card and I like where I put it. There are some cool combos and broken things you can do with Artificer, but barring that it's just a Peddler and that happens so often that it's ignored a lot of the time. To really get mileage out of Artificer's ability you either need to have cost reduction to use with it or MASSIVE draw, and with that kind of draw, chances are you'll be able to do better than Artificer -- I used all caps there so like drawing 8 Silvers can get you two Provinces not on top of your deck and I feel like this is a pretty valid comparison.

I ranked Baker 21st, here it's 40th.
I think I'm willing to say I have Baker overrated a bit, to the point where 40th is probably close enough.


...this is where it starts to get juicy, where the differences are really big, like more than 20 ranks.

I ranked Torturer 30th, here it's 10+.
Torturer is a good card. I mean, it's a lot better than a lot of other fivers, I'll give you that for sure. But top ten? Really? There are easily 20 cards better than Torturer for sure. If there's a halfway decent village around then sure Village/Torturer will be very significant, but you certainly can't say it dominates every such game (with any decent trashing it's just a Smithy that annoys your opponent instead of the whole point of the midgame). Many other fivers are less conditional and have impacts on the game that are just as warping. I think the fact that Torturer needs a village to have any real presence is a big mark against it.

I said this already, but I should say it again so I'm clear, Torturer is a good card and it's important, but top-ten fivers is not a place I think it belongs.

I ranked Cartographer 69th, here it's 46th.
So many times I find myself thinking "Cartographer is probably going to be good on this board" and then I never end up getting any of them. Why? Because it doesn't have enough of an impact -- there's always something more important to pick up. If I'm spending $5 on a card, almost all of the time I need that card to make my deck way better and so often Cartographer just doesn't do enough.


These next three cards: if you read what I have to say about them and you didn't already agree with me, then you're about to get some monster Dominion advice that if you take it, you will become significantly better at the game. I'm so confident about my reads on these cards and they're so different than what the community as a whole has come up with that I'm willing to stake my reputation on them. Big talk, I know.

I ranked Treasure Trove 30th, here it's 59th.
Guys, Treasure Trove is totally broken. It's a difficult card to use in engines but oh mansies, this thing is enormous. I think the community really needs to rethink this card; there's a Treasure Trove of potential here that most people appear to just not be seeing.

I ranked Ill-Gotten Gains 60th, here it's 30th.
We've made some good progress here, more and more people are seeing the light about IGG, but as you can see we have a long way to go. This has been talked about at length elsewhere so I won't re-hash it here, but suffice it to say IGG has not yet hit terminal velocity on its trip down the $5 cards list.

I ranked Distant Lands 20th, here it's 54th.
*evil laugh* I remember losing so many games in playtesting because I thought I could just get by without going for Distant Lands. Don't let this happen to you, unless you're playing me :P Distant Lands is vastly underrated by the community, it's a wonderful card and it is really powerful. Going for Distant Lands will change the way you build your whole deck, where it feels like you are just spinning your wheels for four or five turns, but it's so many points and I think that's where people are misreading this card.

I ranked Hunting Party 40th, here it is 10+.
This thing, it's been talked about before. Most people believe Hunting Party is better than Lab and I disagree. In the early game, yes, but past that I would just rather have Labs, man. I know this is not a popular opinion so I won't belabor it.

But top ten? No way, not even close, man. How can Hunting Party be top ten when Lab is down in the twenties? Who plays Hunting Party stacks anymore? Like, they're not good. I haven't played a simple Hunting Party stack in so long (unless I was being the fun police for testing champion match boards, and in that case I lost like every single game I played, for the record). Sure, it's easy to execute, but those decks just aren't good. Hunting Party will support almost any deck you could possibly build so contesting them doesn't hurt and a simple HP stack with only 5 HPs is actually really awful. Is there something else totally amazing that Hunting Party does that Lab doesn't that warrants over a ten rank difference (towards the top of the list, no less, where I believe these differences are magnified)?

I think I've been a little bit harsh on Hunting Party. I can see bumping it up like 5 or 10 ranks, but this card does not deserve to breathe the same air as the top ten cards in this list. I just don't see how it made it that high.

Code: [Select]
1.) Cultist   [X]
2.) Rebuild   [X]
3.) Governor   [X]
4.) Mountebank   [X]
5.) Wharf   [X]
6.) Ghost Ship   [X]
7.) Butcher   [X]
8.) Junk Dealer   [X]
9.) Highway   [X]
10.) Lost City   [X]
11.) Witch   [X]
12.) Upgrade   [X]
13.) Minion   [X]
14.) Counterfeit   [X]
15.) Royal Carriage   [X]
16.) Horn of Plenty   [X]
17.) Haunted Woods   [X]
18.) Laboratory   [X]
19.) Margrave   [X]
20.) Distant Lands   [X]
21.) Baker   [X]
22.) Bridge Troll   [X]
23.) Embassy   [X]
24.) Stables   [X]
25.) City   [X]
26.) Duke   [X]
27.) Tactician   [X]
28.) Apprentice   [X]
29.) Treasure Trove   [X]
30.) Torturer   [X]
31.) Count   [X]
32.) Journeyman   [X]
33.) Swamp Hag   [X]
34.) Haggler   [X]
35.) Band of Misfits   [X]
36.) Merchant Guild   [X]
37.) Catacombs   [X]
38.) Inn   [X]
39.) Soothsayer   [X]
40.) Hunting Party   [X]
41.) Summon   [X]
42.) Market   [X]
43.) Bazaar   [X]
44.) Library   [X]
45.) Bandit Camp   [X]
46.) Jester   [X]
47.) Rabble   [X]
48.) Council Room   [X]
49.) Seaway   [X]
50.) Ball   [X]
51.) Trade   [X]
52.) Graverobber   [X]
53.) Mystic   [X]
54.) Festival   [X]
55.) Mint   [X]
56.) Outpost   [X]
57.) Vault   [X]
58.) Storyteller   [X]
59.) Ill-Gotten Gains   [X]
60.) Trading Post   [X]
61.) Relic   [X]
62.) Raid   [X]
63.) Artificer   [X]
64.) Treasury   [X]
65.) Wine Merchant   [X]
66.) Rogue   [X]
67.) Giant   [X]
68.) Cartographer   [X]
69.) Pillage   [X]
70.) Explorer   [X]
71.) Venture   [X]
72.) Tribute   [X]
73.) Mandarin   [X]
74.) Counting House   [X]
75.) Saboteur   [X]
76.) Mine   [X]
77.) Royal Seal   [X]
78.) Merchant Ship   [X]
79.) Cache   [X]
80.) Stash   [X]
81.) Harvest   [X]
82.) Contraband   [X]
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 10:45:50 pm by AdamH »
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #190 on: November 24, 2015, 04:58:02 pm »
+3

I see Hunting Party as a lab that is more likely to draw my unique cards. The kingdom cards in my deck are usually better than than Copper. I want to draw those. Plus you can hold off on playing the cantrips and villages to draw the terminals you're lacking.

You also say that when contested Hunting Party is not very strong because you only get 5 of them. But like with the Prisoner's Dilemma, this does not necessarily mean that getting those HPs was a mistake.

At the very least, I don't agree that it's worse than Laboratory.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #191 on: November 24, 2015, 05:05:50 pm »
+3

You also say that when contested Hunting Party is not very strong because you only get 5 of them. But like with the Prisoner's Dilemma, this does not necessarily mean that getting those HPs was a mistake.

There's a great post by Mic Qsenoch discussing this issue:

Two decks with five Highways might take 18 turns to end the game. One deck with 8-10 Highways might take 13 turns.

The general situation is: lots of engines require large numbers of specific cards to achieve maximum speed. If you don't contest important engine cards, your opponent can runaway with the game. When two players contest all the engine pieces, the decks that you end up with are often mediocre, but it was necessary to not get destroyed by the uncontested engine. There are lots of engine pieces that lead to this situation (Minion, Highway, Grand Market, King's Court, Villages, Bridge, Hunting Party, Lab, Stables, Scrying Pool, and many others)
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #192 on: November 24, 2015, 05:10:29 pm »
+5

I must say, seeing such huge disagreements among the rankings makes me want to play more Dominion to try and verify or challenge some of these claims.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #193 on: November 24, 2015, 05:13:02 pm »
+2


I ranked Artificer 64th, here it's 45th.
Once again, it's an Adventures card and I like where I put it. There are some cool combos and broken things you can do with Artificer, but barring that it's just a Peddler and that happens so often that it's ignored a lot of the time. To really get mileage out of Artificer's ability you either need to have cost reduction to use with it or MASSIVE draw, and with that kind of draw, chances are you'll be able to do better than Artificer -- I used all caps there so like drawing 8 Silvers can get you two Provinces not on top of your deck and I feel like this is a pretty valid comparison.


I'm kind of reassured that a strong player just thinks the same of artificer I did at first glance ... but, let me tell you, i was wrong, and so are you. Artificer is awesome!
You've mentioned a synergy with massive draw, but that's only a small part of the story. Maybe it's the context of a well-trashed engine that troubled my view, because Artificer is excellent in the presence of weak cards, most notably our starting cards. Example given: If I discard three coppers, Artificer was basically a market, with the decent advantages of gaining the card mid-turn, and putting it on top of the deck. If you discard two coppers and an estate, artificer was even  a grand market plus the mentioned extras. I think, only few cards are strictly better than grand market on a regular basis.
Finally, there's one thing I haven't mentioned yet: Draw-to-X. Minion, omg. And ... who am I talking to ... Jack!
Play artificer, discard three coppers to topdeck that silver, keep Jack and a silver, play Jack, draw the next silver, and so on...
Seriously, one year from now, I expect you to think differently, and artificer will make a jump of, say, 15 to 20 places.






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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #194 on: November 24, 2015, 05:18:32 pm »
0

yea, if you play big money and ignore hunting party, on a board with zero trashing, you'll lose to an engine that literally does nothing but draw and play militia every turn.  that makes it pretty damn beefy imo

i've been learning the hard way that the real measure of a card's power is "what happens if i let my opponent have all 10 of these things", and hunting party is one of the strongest illustrations of that

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #195 on: November 24, 2015, 05:19:17 pm »
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HP is only a little better than lab. HP+x is no longer a thing. Oh and Ghost Ship is a weak ass card. Last time I checked, Margrave nets one extra card and a buy. It's vastly superior to ghost ship which at best usually slows the game down and that's it.
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Psyduck

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #196 on: November 24, 2015, 05:39:27 pm »
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I ranked Treasure Trove 30th, here it's 59th.
Guys, Treasure Trove is totally broken. It's a difficult card to use in engines but oh mansies, this thing is enormous. I think the community really needs to rethink this card; there's a Treasure Trove of potential here that most people appear to just not be seeing.

I agree very much on this. Haven't played that much with Adventures, but Treasure Trove is way more powerful than it seems. Getting 2-3 Treasure Troves along with some terminal draw should be enough to start greening. It's a bit like Hoard, just cheaper, and better. I ranked it even as #12. :o

I ranked Hunting Party 40th, here it is 10+.
This thing, it's been talked about before. Most people believe Hunting Party is better than Lab and I disagree. In the early game, yes, but past that I would just rather have Labs, man. I know this is not a popular opinion so I won't belabor it.

I really can't understand your aversion against HP. I think it's almost always better than Lab, because you can influence what you draw by playing cards from your hand before HP. Also, HP works much better in non-trimmed decks. You just have to take care not to have too many uniques, as even a single Marauder can do lots of harm to a HP stack.

There are quite some cards that work really, really well as X in HP+X: Militia, Monument, Haggler, Steward, Butcher, Baron and Scavenger. Sure, against strong engines this may be too slow, but on many boards it's still a valid option.
That said, I don't see HP in top 10 as well, but not at all as low as you do.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 05:40:55 pm by Psyduck »
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #197 on: November 24, 2015, 05:49:00 pm »
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yea, if you play big money and ignore hunting party, on a board with zero trashing, you'll lose to an engine that literally does nothing but draw and play militia every turn.  that makes it pretty damn beefy imo

i've been learning the hard way that the real measure of a card's power is "what happens if i let my opponent have all 10 of these things", and hunting party is one of the strongest illustrations of that

I feel like this applies for the case of HP-X:

I think Venture felt stronger back when it was more likely to be in a kingdom with Mint.

That's the other thing to remember about "early" strategy advice - it might be outdated now and simultaneously correct then. Expansions change lotsa stuff.

I'd say HP-X is quite strong when it's present in kingdoms biased towards earlier expansions where mixing many components together was less likely to be part of the dominant strategy. BM+X is often good in base only after all.

I hope that my evaluation of the cards becomes sharper within the whole context of Dominion once Adventures comes online.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #198 on: November 24, 2015, 05:56:21 pm »
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Haunted woods is really really good. Playing two of these a turn is like double tac without the discarding and with a an attack to boot. Excellent payload, good reliability and decent draw. Hurts big draw decks, good in money game (slightly less so than wharf), 10*better in a engine. Why is hunting party so much better than storyteller? Storyteller is one of the draw cards(Scrying pool, madman and to a lesser extent menagerie) Hunting party is at least one tier below this. In games that need draw but can afford loss of coin(cost reducers, bank, treasure trove, hoard) Hunting party is (although better than lab) not that great of a card.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $5 cards
« Reply #199 on: November 24, 2015, 05:58:43 pm »
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You guys, please go on believing Hunting party is bad. I need all the help I can get winning games.
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