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[liopoil]

Wait, Summon is way better than that right?

[markusin]

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

Play Highway
Seaway Highway
Win

You just blew my mind.

Just tried a couple games with Highway and Seaway as the only "Kingdom stuff".  It only works if you're not contested for the Highway pile.  First time through I had shitty luck and didn't get to Seaway until turn 9, and on turn 15 bought 6 Provinces.  2nd try I got Seaway on turn 6, emptied the Higways on turn 10, and bought all the Provinces on turn 12 - turn 11, with nothing else to buy, I picked up a Duchy.

I hesitate to call this combo because you *need* 7-10 Highways, and it desperately wants trashing.  I was opening Silver/Silver, but I think Forager, Oasis, and maybe Ferry or Steward would be much better.  Being able to open Highway/Chapel on 5/2 would probably guarantee you a win.

You could buy lots of Duchies with just 5 Highways that have +buy though. I guess it's not a combo like Hermit/Market Squre though.

[jsh357]

Wait, Summon is way better than that right?

Probably. To be honest, even though I tested it a fair amount before its release, I can't say I have a handle on just how good it is. I'd imagine very, very good.

[ehunt]

City isn't very good in 2P. It's fine, but there's no reason it should've gone up in rankings. There has to be real payload for it to be better than a trap; it's so often an overcost village that becomes a lab when there's no terminal you want to spam on the board.

[iguanaiguana]

City isn't very good in 2P. It's fine, but there's no reason it should've gone up in rankings. There has to be real payload for it to be better than a trap; it's so often an overcost village that becomes a lab when there's no terminal you want to spam on the board.

The increase in likelihood of three pile endings on engine boards at high levels of play has done a lot to make city more viable on engine boards. If you look at the game and think it is likely to end on provinces, city is probably not good there. However, city itself will push boards with already good terminals toward an engine.

That said, its definitely still situational and let's be honest. It gained ranks from being somewhere in the middle of the 5 cost cards and now it is still basically somewhere in the middle of the 5 cost cards. Not SO much has changed.

[Chris is me]

Artificer needs to be higher.

I had it at 6. I'll probably regret that but I don't yet.

I don't think Top 10 is at all unreasonable for Artificer. It's criminally underrated on this list. It's one of the most reliable and fastest ways to pick up key engine pieces right when you need them, and with decent draw it can even be a great late game VP gainer. Worst case it's a $5 Peddler which isn't too bad itself. Very, very good card.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

Had anyone ever bought Harvest?

I think I didn't, at least in the last couple of years.

So I am now having problems finding the game on 'salvager, but I did play a game against an actually strong player where Harvest really was the key thing since it was the only virtual money around and you could never run your engine if you actually had to lug around pretty much any money. I will post the log when I can get to it.

But yeah: it's pretty much a corner case card. Mandarin has many more use cases, which is really saying something.

[drsteelhammer]

Artificer needs to be higher.

I had it at 6. I'll probably regret that but I don't yet.

I don't think Top 10 is at all unreasonable for Artificer. It's criminally underrated on this list. It's one of the most reliable and fastest ways to pick up key engine pieces right when you need them, and with decent draw it can even be a great late game VP gainer. Worst case it's a $5 Peddler which isn't too bad itself. Very, very good card.

A 5$ peddler is not great- see Treasury. The on gain-effect is probably decent but I don't think it's close to the strength of the top 10cards (except maybe in Pool games)

[werothegreat]

So we still have yet to see the three Attack-Durations, Lost City, and Royal Carriage.

[Limetime]

Embassy is way overrated. In a engine this sucks. I think treasure trove is better in engines and with any other BM-enabler it is better in big money. It is better in slogs because it pushes your deck value towards 2$ which is really good. Summon is going to be really good. Artificer might improve but def. not top 10 material. It's problem is in most decks discarding so many cards hurts a whole lot. It works well with spammable 2s and 3s and draw up to x although watchtower's reaction is redundant.

[funkdoc]

City isn't very good in 2P. It's fine, but there's no reason it should've gone up in rankings. There has to be real payload for it to be better than a trap; it's so often an overcost village that becomes a lab when there's no terminal you want to spam on the board.

the thing is that i tend to see top players rush cities a lot, which of course makes them great.  there's a thread to be had in debating how good that is - i've seen people like adam criticize it in the past.

[drsteelhammer]

City isn't very good in 2P. It's fine, but there's no reason it should've gone up in rankings. There has to be real payload for it to be better than a trap; it's so often an overcost village that becomes a lab when there's no terminal you want to spam on the board.

the thing is that i tend to see top players rush cities a lot, which of course makes them great.  there's a thread to be had in debating how good that is - i've seen people like adam criticize it in the past.

The problem occurs when there City is the only village on the board. Then you'll have the prisoner's dilemma all over again where you don't contest the Cities (not cool for an engine), only get 3 of them and the opponent suddenly has 7 Lost Cities or you both build suboptimally by rushing them down at some point.

[Beyond Awesome]

Bandit camp is not better than bazaar

[funkdoc]

Bandit camp is not better than bazaar

hell, bandit camp is worse than vanilla village on many boards

[Voltaire]

Wait, Summon is way better than that right?

Summon was in the UCon final, was used, but wasn't key, if I am remembering correctly?

And I played an IRL league match with AHoppy where Summon was a dud.

What I am going for is this:

• I think Summon looks bonkers on paper and is only "good" in practice
• We need it online because I'm going insane with virtually no data on these things
• Something about heroin

[markusin]

Embassy is way overrated. In a engine this sucks. I think treasure trove is better in engines and with any other BM-enabler it is better in big money. It is better in slogs because it pushes your deck value towards 2$ which is really good. Summon is going to be really good. Artificer might improve but def. not top 10 material. It's problem is in most decks discarding so many cards hurts a whole lot. It works well with spammable 2s and 3s and draw up to x although watchtower's reaction is redundant.

Embassy totally does not suck in engines. With villages around, if the engine with Embassy isn't good enough it's often because Embassy-BM outraces it. That only strengthens the case that Embassy is strong though.

It only increases your handsize by one, but choosing 2 out of 5 cards really helps you find the cards you need to continue your engine. Plus it's big sifting that helps you reach the bottom of your deck so you can repeat the process all over again. You should try it as draw in engines more often.

Plus it has an on-gain attack  (well, against engines anyway).

[assemble_me]

Bandit camp is not better than bazaar

hell, bandit camp is worse than vanilla village on many boards

It's better than Gold ony many others. (Yes it sometimes is troublesome if it's the only village on the board. But it's so great to throw in one or two because you get a Gold that is always at the "end" of the shuffle and you get a village on top)

[Moneymodel]

Wait, Summon is way better than that right?

Summon was in the UCon final, was used, but wasn't key, if I am remembering correctly?

And I played an IRL league match with AHoppy where Summon was a dud.

What I am going for is this:

• I think Summon looks bonkers on paper and is only "good" in practice
• We need it online because I'm going insane with virtually no data on these things
• Something about heroin

Yeah but imagine opening with it

Can't you just picture it? A T2 Ambassador, Chapel, or Remake? Or at worst a guaranteed T3?

[Beyond Awesome]

Bandit camp is not better than bazaar

hell, bandit camp is worse than vanilla village on many boards

It's better than Gold ony many others. (Yes it sometimes is troublesome if it's the only village on the board. But it's so great to throw in one or two because you get a Gold that is always at the "end" of the shuffle and you get a village on top)

Okay, it is often better than gold, but Bazaar is still better. If you have too many camps, you are just junking your deck.

[Limetime]

Embassy is way overrated. In a engine this sucks. I think treasure trove is better in engines and with any other BM-enabler it is better in big money. It is better in slogs because it pushes your deck value towards 2$ which is really good. Summon is going to be really good. Artificer might improve but def. not top 10 material. It's problem is in most decks discarding so many cards hurts a whole lot. It works well with spammable 2s and 3s and draw up to x although watchtower's reaction is redundant.

Embassy totally does not suck in engines. With villages around, if the engine with Embassy isn't good enough it's often because Embassy-BM outraces it. That only strengthens the case that Embassy is strong though.

It only increases your handsize by one, but choosing 2 out of 5 cards really helps you find the cards you need to continue your engine. Plus it's big sifting that helps you reach the bottom of your deck so you can repeat the process all over again. You should try it as draw in engines more often.

Plus it has an on-gain attack  (well, against engines anyway).

Embassy is like a expensive moat in an engine. Often times the engine is more viable if mat had been there instead of embassy. Yes i get that it cycles but if it is your only draw then your engine sucks. In big money it's pretty good but so is treasure trove which is like 27 ranks lower. Treasure trove works better with other terminal big money cards by a lot. In most engines a silver is a bonus.

[markusin]

Embassy is way overrated. In a engine this sucks. I think treasure trove is better in engines and with any other BM-enabler it is better in big money. It is better in slogs because it pushes your deck value towards 2$ which is really good. Summon is going to be really good. Artificer might improve but def. not top 10 material. It's problem is in most decks discarding so many cards hurts a whole lot. It works well with spammable 2s and 3s and draw up to x although watchtower's reaction is redundant.

Embassy totally does not suck in engines. With villages around, if the engine with Embassy isn't good enough it's often because Embassy-BM outraces it. That only strengthens the case that Embassy is strong though.

It only increases your handsize by one, but choosing 2 out of 5 cards really helps you find the cards you need to continue your engine. Plus it's big sifting that helps you reach the bottom of your deck so you can repeat the process all over again. You should try it as draw in engines more often.

Plus it has an on-gain attack  (well, against engines anyway).

Embassy is like a expensive moat in an engine. Often times the engine is more viable if mat had been there instead of embassy. Yes i get that it cycles but if it is your only draw then your engine sucks. In big money it's pretty good but so is treasure trove which is like 27 ranks lower. Treasure trove works better with other terminal big money cards by a lot. In most engines a silver is a bonus.

Who says you must draw every card in your deck for your engine for it to be effective? Embassy lets you draw the key cards much better than Most does. Often that's enough. And Embassy is even better when it isn't your only draw but acts as a compliment to draw.

I'm not saying Treasure Trove couldn't have been higher in the rankings. If Treasure Trove Big-Money turns out to be as fearsome as Embassy Big Money then definitely Treasure Strove should be at a substantially higher rating.

[Chris is me]

Artificer needs to be higher.

I had it at 6. I'll probably regret that but I don't yet.

I don't think Top 10 is at all unreasonable for Artificer. It's criminally underrated on this list. It's one of the most reliable and fastest ways to pick up key engine pieces right when you need them, and with decent draw it can even be a great late game VP gainer. Worst case it's a $5 Peddler which isn't too bad itself. Very, very good card.

A 5$ peddler is not great- see Treasury. The on gain-effect is probably decent but I don't think it's close to the strength of the top 10cards (except maybe in Pool games)

$5 Peddler isn't great, what I meant by that is when you don't need the gain effect, it is still a net positive to have one in your hand vs no card. The only opportunity cost is not getting another $5.

Artificer is really a card that is better than it looks, you really just have to buy it a few times and it will click how good it is. Can't tell you the number of times my hand is like Artificer / Village / 3 cards I don't give a shit about, I draw a 4th junk card, topdeck a Smithy, play the Village, and now my previously dead turn has hit the ground running. Or one game, I recently drew my deck, used Artificer to gain an Expand, which I immediately drew to gain / buy the last two Colonies and win. You buy it not clear on exactly when you're gonna use it and suddenly your engine is twice as reliable and you have no idea where all these components came from.

[Limetime]

Embassy is way overrated. In a engine this sucks. I think treasure trove is better in engines and with any other BM-enabler it is better in big money. It is better in slogs because it pushes your deck value towards 2$ which is really good. Summon is going to be really good. Artificer might improve but def. not top 10 material. It's problem is in most decks discarding so many cards hurts a whole lot. It works well with spammable 2s and 3s and draw up to x although watchtower's reaction is redundant.

Embassy totally does not suck in engines. With villages around, if the engine with Embassy isn't good enough it's often because Embassy-BM outraces it. That only strengthens the case that Embassy is strong though.

It only increases your handsize by one, but choosing 2 out of 5 cards really helps you find the cards you need to continue your engine. Plus it's big sifting that helps you reach the bottom of your deck so you can repeat the process all over again. You should try it as draw in engines more often.

Plus it has an on-gain attack  (well, against engines anyway).

Embassy is like a expensive moat in an engine. Often times the engine is more viable if mat had been there instead of embassy. Yes i get that it cycles but if it is your only draw then your engine sucks. In big money it's pretty good but so is treasure trove which is like 27 ranks lower. Treasure trove works better with other terminal big money cards by a lot. In most engines a silver is a bonus.

Who says you must draw every card in your deck for your engine for it to be effective? Embassy lets you draw the key cards much better than Most does. Often that's enough. And Embassy is even better when it isn't your only draw but acts as a compliment to draw.

I'm not saying Treasure Trove couldn't have been higher in the rankings. If Treasure Trove Big-Money turns out to be as fearsome as Embassy Big Money then definitely Treasure Strove should be at a substantially higher rating.

Here is some useful data compiled by a forum user (not me) on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). I can't recall what the time range of the games played.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true

Embassy is only gained 45.29% Which is really bad for a 5$ card that is this high in ranking.

[jsh357]

I don't know anything about the statistics, but I do know embassy is a great card, and I would say it's underrated if anything. Silver attack and +2 smart draw is awesome. It's great for money games and useful in engines too. Even though it nets fewer cards than some terminal draw, odds are you are going to draw enough good things with it since you get so many options. It's true that other draw cards let you put more in your hand, but that's apples and oranges in a way. This card nets 2 and then plays a better version of warehouse pretty much.

[Limetime]

In a trashed down engine embassy practically is journeyman is better in engines and so is rabble, and catacombs.