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[DG]

I think Stash could comfortably be without breaking anything.

The problem would be that it gets bought as a deluxe silver and the stash pile would run out in every game where silver is a decent card for 4 coins.

[A Ladder]

will be interesting to see how much higher embassy finishes than treasure trove...basically a measure of the value of being decent in engines

And because you can "attack" your opponent with the silvers. 

My brother has gummed up lots of my engines by just buying tons of embassies.

[Donald X.]

I think Stash could comfortably be without breaking anything.

The problem would be that it gets bought as a deluxe silver and the stash pile would run out in every game where silver is a decent card for 4 coins.

Automatically emptying the pile, especially for more casual players, is an issue, but also, players would automatically buy some number of copies of Stash despite having no interest in playing it, neither a strategy nor the joy of Stash, and then they would have it and play it and be doing that thing. Sometimes they would sit there after shuffling, deciding what to do with this card they only bought because they wanted Silver. If they didn't enjoy it, still they would feel stupid buying Silver over it.

[JW]

Stash could be cheaper, but have some sort of limit on its acquisition to make it not a Silver+ at $4.

You can't buy Stash if you have a Stash in play? Helps keep those Silvers coming!

[Limetime]

Treasure trove is really good in BM, Engines that have tons of draw Ahem... storyteller..., and slogs.
Combos with
1)Storyteller - A Storyteller deck with treasure trove=Unreliability/Really explosive payload. Playing treasure trove with a storyteller adds 4$ worth of payload and draws 2 cards. Prob. winning combo with non-terminal +buy
2)Trash for benefit - It works really well this
3)Alt green - Almost on par with beggar gardens
4)Big money - This + terminal draw is on par if not better than double-jack
5)Watchtower/trader - Top deck gold trash copper is really good. Trader can get silvers in the masses with treasure trove.

Relic is pretty good too.

[Chris is me]

Treasure Trove is much better than it looks. It makes money strategies a lot more viable with even minimal support (Moneylender / Spice Merchant / Forager). Seeing it as worse than Trading Post is just sad.

[schadd]

@seaway: this is a boring card that is unfortunately not that bad. it gains a card costing up to 4 (that's only 1 less than 5) and gives it a buy. granted, oftentimes $5>>$4+buy (see smithy vs. margrave, although margrave is a bit higher in its respective list) but it upgrades other instances of that card and states, hey man, buys are pretty much taken care of a lot of the time. i have it at 47

@ball: yyyyyikes is that wrong, see the unweighted ranking part. buy ball; gain village and peddler, fine at $3 and fine at $4. in a lot of cases that is congruent to buying a bazaar, which is probably in the top 30 or 40ish. you trade a -1 coin token (that's not so bad, cutpurse is only #40) compared to bazaar to not only be able to get 2 4s instead of a 3 and a 4 like i suggested but also, get 2 engine components without worrying about buy. i have it at 23

other than that, uh, relic a bit higher, maybe? it's like both the money and attack part of minion. maybe not that impressive, who knows. the discard a random card almost effect hasn't been explored that much. people seem to like treasure trove, probably worth being a few bits higher, remodeling and copper trashing are quite common.

[Beyond Awesome]

Seaway and ball are underrated. Especially Seaway seaway. Buys are nice especially on a card you most likely wanted anyway

[Qvist]

Part 4

[werothegreat]

Part 4

Early today!  My guess is Giant is going to pop up once people start playing Adventures online.

[gkrieg13]

Part 4

Early today!  My guess is Giant is going to pop up once people start playing Adventures online.

I was going to say the opposite.

[mameluke]

Artificer needs to be higher.

[drsteelhammer]

I'm with gkrieg on this one, I think Giant will lose rating in the next evaluation.

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

[markusin]

I'm with gkrieg on this one, I think Giant will lose rating in the next evaluation.

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

My thoughts exactly. It's useful whether you want lots of buys for emptying piles of just a couple of buys to help with engine building. Then again I might have a slight bias towards +buy cards. just imagine though, gaining a Conspirator with Seaway turns activated Conspirators into true Grand Markets.

I would also have liked to see Cartographer higher and I think Artificer as well.

[Limetime]

I love storyteller. It is a great card because cards>coins. Makes market = lab+, festival = lost city+ Grand Maket=Activated-menagerie +,Silver into lab, Gold into Double lab, Poor house into hunting grounds (assuming no treasures in hand), Playing coppers with storyteller is a not it's best use. Playing platinum is. A storyteller deck can draw ~30 cards which is really good.
It works really well with:
Bank, scheme (for reliability in a massive deck), Treasure trove, Hoard, Other cyclers(for coppers and estates), Colony/platinum, Artificer, Gainers, menagerie(cycle duplicate treasure)

[ehunt]

Artificer needs to be higher.

I had it at 6. I'll probably regret that but I don't yet.

[Limetime]

Artificer is a fairly good card but it needs some support. Discarding 5 cards to get a fiver is really crippling without Things like draw to x.
It works well with scrying pool, menagerie, minion,

[aku_chi]

A few oddities from my point of view:

Storyteller << Stables
Storyteller is a very good card - as good or better than Stables, IMO.  It's easy to compare Storyteller to Stables (a very good card) and Apprentice (a great card) and note the pros and cons.
Storyteller vs. Stables: In the worst case, Storyteller is a cantrip, Stables is useless.  When playing/discarding a single Copper, Stables is considerably better.  Playing multiple Coppers to Storyteller is arguably worse than discarding a single Copper to Storyteller.  When playing/discarding a single Silver, Storyteller and Stables are almost equally valuable (with Stables, the discarded Silver can be drawn again).  If more than one Silver or a single Gold is played to Storyteller, it is considerably more powerful than Stables.  Storyteller is also much more flexible.
Storyteller vs. Apprentice: Apprentice generates no immediate value from trashing a Copper, Storyteller filters up to three Coppers.  Trashing a Silver to Apprentice provides the same benefit as playing one to Storyteller.  Removing the Silver from your deck is of variable utility.  But Storyteller can play multiple Silvers to achieve fantastic card draw.  Apprentice gets fantastic value from trashing a Gold, but Storyteller keeps the Gold in your deck and can generate even more card draw with multiple Golds and Silvers at the cost of some coin this turn.  Apprentice can, of course, trash non-Treasure cards, and is overall better for it.  But in decks where Apprentice-Gold is a good engine enabler, Storyteller can be as good or better.
Other benefits: Storyteller can also convert coin from actions into draw.  You can turn Peddlers into Labs, Festival into Lost City + buy, and activated Conspirators into super Laboratories.  Occasionally, this can be undesirable, but usually with smart play and deck-tracking you can use your Storytellers to draw exactly as many cards as desired (your whole deck, of course!) without wasting any extra coin.  Storyteller can also enable some shenanigans with kingdom treasures being played during the action phase.  I'm not familiar with all of these cute interactions, but consider gaining with Horn of Plenty and drawing the gained card in the turn, reducing the cost of actions via Quarry to Remodel a Curse into a good action, or top-decking all gained cards with Royal Seal.

Festival << Bandit Camp
On net, Festival provides -1 card, +1 action, +2 coins, and +1 buy.  Bandit Camp provides +1 action immediately, and -1 card, +3 coin at some point later.  +2 coin, +1 buy is about as valuable as +3 coin, and getting the benefit immediately is better than getting the benefit later (or not at all if it is late enough in the game).  Festival synergizes with draw-to-X and is a decent card in alt-VP rushes.  Bandit Camp synergizes with cards that can get unusual benefit from Spoils (Counterfeit and Storyteller, I guess).  Ultimately, I believe these cards are similarly valuable, but Festival gets the edge.  I also think Bazaar is very similar in value to these two cards, but I can understand people valuing +1 card over +1 coin, +1 buy.

[werothegreat]

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

Play Highway
Seaway Highway
Win

[markusin]

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

Play Highway
Seaway Highway
Win

You just blew my mind.

[managore]

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

Play Highway
Seaway Highway
Win

You just blew my mind.

Somewhat unrelated but Ball + Highway is a wonderful combo, too.

[Awaclus]

Merchant Guild is criminally underrated. I had it at #13.

[Accatitippi]

Artificer is a fairly good card but it needs some support. Discarding 5 cards to get a fiver is really crippling without Things like draw to x.
It works well with scrying pool, menagerie, minion,

My guess is that it will work well in most overdrawing engines. You can say goodbye to payload and just draw, or have it as a Mega Ironworks discarding your estates.
You know all those cool Vault engines we imagined when we first got Prosperity, those where you imagined yourself discarding and redrawing to get stupid amounts of money, but that most often didn't work due to Vault-BM being a monster?
Artificer looks like Vault with a +buy and sign that says "Engines only".

[werothegreat]

Also Seaway is a lot stronger scource of +buy than Festival or Market, I don't see why it should be so far down. I mean, below Mystic?

Play Highway
Seaway Highway
Win

You just blew my mind.

Just tried a couple games with Highway and Seaway as the only "Kingdom stuff".  It only works if you're not contested for the Highway pile.  First time through I had shitty luck and didn't get to Seaway until turn 9, and on turn 15 bought 6 Provinces.  2nd try I got Seaway on turn 6, emptied the Higways on turn 10, and bought all the Provinces on turn 12 - turn 11, with nothing else to buy, I picked up a Duchy.

I hesitate to call this combo because you *need* 7-10 Highways, and it desperately wants trashing.  I was opening Silver/Silver, but I think Forager, Oasis, and maybe Ferry or Steward would be much better.  Being able to open Highway/Chapel on 5/2 would probably guarantee you a win.

[Qvist]

Part 5