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[werothegreat]

Harvest is just awkward in deck-drawing engines, which are the kinds of decks you'd normally want terminal +, because if you do all your drawing, and then play Harvest, you get nothing.  You have to somehow finagle playing Harvests in between drawing cards.

[drsteelhammer]

A few month ago I made harvest  as a payload engine work when I used Hamlets to seed my discard and called Carriage 2-3times. That was certainly better than Gold, but took a lot of work to set up.

[assemble_me]

I agree with this. Harvest should be last. It's rare you ever get $4 out of it. You usually get $3 and sometimes even $2, and for $5 wtf.

So...?
I mean sure, most of the time you have something better to do with your terminal space. But 3$ for 5$ is still more cost efficient than Gold. It's not great but it's okay in general.

The really sad thing is that it's so hard to use in engines.

except for the fact that gold is nonterminal

That's why Harvest is 1$ cheaper . And, as said

most of the time you have something better to do with your terminal space

[Erick648]

Had anyone ever bought Harvest?

I think I didn't, at least in the last couple of years.

I once used it as payload in a double-Tactician engine where I drew my deck, then discarded four differently-named cards with Storeroom to guarantee that all of my Harvests were worth $4.  Outside of that narrow situation, though (deck-drawing engine with a Vault variant and no better payload, including Gold/Platinum), it doesn't seem worthwhile.

[Qvist]

Part 2

[XerxesPraelor]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

[jsh357]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

It's not a bad card; it's just not on the same level as cards in the tiers above it.

[AJD]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

It's not a bad card; it's just not on the same level as cards in the tiers above it.

So, it's a bad card when compared to cards that are better than it, but in comparison to cards on the same level, it's pretty decent.

[Tables]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

It's not a bad card; it's just not on the same level as cards in the tiers above it.

Hmm... as someone who has never used it, it would seem to me to be a pretty good source of cash/as a payload in an engine. 3 Wine Merchants for instance provides you $10 and +3 buys, with the option to spend an extra $2 when needed. That's pretty good for payload, covering your buys with a lot of cash at once. And of course adding in 1-2 more of them is very efficient in terms of what you get out, if you can afford the terminal action space.

However that's just me theorycrafting on the card. I suppose in practice it's hard to make the engine where you can play so many of them at once?

[faust]

The ratings for Treasury and Venture ("5 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking") coincide with my experience; weaker players seem to overvalue these cantrippy 5s. I predict a similar deviation for Baker.

[LastFootnote]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

I'm guessing it will jump up at least a few ranks in future years. I'd say it's pretty clearly better than Merchant Ship, for instance.

[ehunt]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

i ranked it dead last although in retrospect i shouldve put it above harvest... i dont really get it, it seems like a woodcutter to me.

[LastFootnote]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

i ranked it dead last although in retrospect i shouldve put it above harvest... i dont really get it, it seems like a woodcutter to me.

Just one Wine Merchant isn't that great. But if you play e.g. four Wine Merchants, you can discard them all from your Tavern mat for just $2 total.

[Chris is me]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

i ranked it dead last although in retrospect i shouldve put it above harvest... i dont really get it, it seems like a woodcutter to me.

You buy more than one, and all of them return to your deck with just $2 unspent. It's part of a larger engine payload.

---

Personally I don't understand why Merchant Ship is regarded so poorly. It's solid payload if you have the Actions for it.

[funkdoc]

re: the low-tier debate, i'm down with harvest last.  it never really dominates a game the way saboteur or stash or counting house do at their best.  it's between that & cache imo - when comparing cards you rarely buy, i care about peak value.

also yea i think baker could be headed for a masterpiece-esque fall, which it would fully deserve.  one of the most overrated cards from the old list & wanderingwinder's rankings, i think

[jsh357]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

i ranked it dead last although in retrospect i shouldve put it above harvest... i dont really get it, it seems like a woodcutter to me.

You buy more than one, and all of them return to your deck with just $2 unspent. It's part of a larger engine payload.

---

Personally I don't understand why Merchant Ship is regarded so poorly. It's solid payload if you have the Actions for it.

I rank it low because in most cases Gold is a better option. They are similarly costed, and terminal space tends to be at a premium. I'd rather spend it on draw or attacks most of the time.

[AJD]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

I'm guessing it will jump up at least a few ranks in future years. I'd say it's pretty clearly better than Merchant Ship, for instance.

Huh, it's kind of the opposite of Merchant Ship, isn't it? Merchant Ship gives you a total of $4, but only $2 now; Wine Merchant gives you $4 up front, but in a sense only gives you $2 in total.

[LastFootnote]

Is Wine Merchant really that bad? It seems great both as a payload for engines and for spiking provinces when you need to.

I'm guessing it will jump up at least a few ranks in future years. I'd say it's pretty clearly better than Merchant Ship, for instance.

Huh, it's kind of the opposite of Merchant Ship, isn't it? Merchant Ship gives you a total of $4, but only $2 now; Wine Merchant gives you $4 up front, but in a sense only gives you $2 in total.

Yes. But the +1 Buy is often pretty important.

[ehunt]

Huh, it's kind of the opposite of Merchant Ship, isn't it? Merchant Ship gives you a total of $4, but only $2 now; Wine Merchant gives you $4 up front, but in a sense only gives you $2 in total.

I don't have any real experience with Wine Merchant (chose not to buy it in the 2-3 games I've played featuring it) but it just seems awful. I mean, expensive terminal money is not usually so good: Mandarin is edge-case-ish, Harvest is awful, Count isn't awful but only because it does bunches of stuff that isn't terminal money, Merchant Ship, eh. Death Cart looks almost OP but is in fact terrible. Etc.

So, yes, I get it, mathematically, if I play more than one Wine Merchant, they're better. But this just functionally means I have to buy two of this card for it to not be overpriced Woodcutter; I'm unsold, I'd rather buy none.

[LastFootnote]

So you decided never to buy it in the games you played with it, then decided on the merit of not buying it that it must be too weak. Seems legit! 

[trivialknot]

My impression of this list so far... people really don't like payoff cards, particularly terminal payoff.  Counting house, harvest, wine merchant, mandarin, explorer, merchant ship.  There really aren't too many more (merchant's Guild, haggler, giant, depending on your definition, no I don't think mountebank counts).

I thought there were similar patterns in the $3 and $4 categories.  I guess people think terminal payoff is just bad?

[LastFootnote]

My impression of this list so far... people really don't like payoff cards, particularly terminal payoff.  Counting house, harvest, wine merchant, mandarin, explorer, merchant ship.  There really aren't too many more (merchant's Guild, haggler, giant, depending on your definition, no I don't think mountebank counts).

I thought there were similar patterns in the $3 and $4 categories.  I guess people think terminal payoff is just bad?

As you get to the higher skill levels in 2-player games, apparently everything becomes very engine-centric. Anything that doesn't draw you cards (or give +Actions) is just not as important as things that do. Also, things like Counting House and Harvest do literally nothing once you've drawn your whole deck.

[funkdoc]

somewhat, trivial - terminal *money* is weak, whereas terminal *gaining* tends to be more more important for engines (or even big money in haggler's case).  also terminal payload with unique stacking effects.  that's why haggler & merchant guild will be way way higher than these.

[singletee]

I've only played one game with Wine Merchant; it was decent on account of being the only +Buy. But it seems like it should get much stronger with Throne variants, especially KC as it can help spike you to $7. And if you Procession a Wine Merchant, it won't even get trashed!

[Awaclus]

As you get to the higher skill levels in 2-player games, apparently everything becomes very engine-centric. Anything that doesn't draw you cards (or give +Actions) is just not as important as things that do. Also, things like Counting House and Harvest do literally nothing once you've drawn your whole deck.

Counting House draws you cards though. It's just not very good at it.