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Author Topic: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Town Wins!)  (Read 322006 times)

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faust

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #500 on: November 30, 2015, 02:55:00 pm »

there's a lot that would be tough to call constructive or helpful.

Can you support this statement with evidence?
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Ampharos

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #501 on: November 30, 2015, 02:56:27 pm »

I'd bet my non-existent hat you both are town.

That's interesting; in your previous reads list, iguana and silver only showed up as light town. What changed? Or are you just in a gambling mood?

The more Day 1 consistent headbutting between two people, the more likely they are to be stubborn townies refusing to give up their point.  That behavior draws too much attention.  It's important to note that this is very different than one person relentlessly going after another, and that can easily be a sign of scum on either side of that (i.e. your moves on GKrieg last game).
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Witherweaver

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #502 on: November 30, 2015, 02:57:40 pm »

And WW is a blank page as always. His playstyle is way more anti-town than that of Awaclus.

Ha.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #503 on: November 30, 2015, 02:58:03 pm »

Hey Egor, what's your main reason for thinking I'm scum?
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silverspawn

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #504 on: November 30, 2015, 02:58:17 pm »

see, this is one of the reasons why you are scummy, although not the most important one.

You think reads lists are towny. So you make a reads list, and now you expect to be towny because of it.

It does not work that way. towniness is not some progressive point gathering, it's a judgement of your alignment. Every scum can sit down and write a reads list. It depends on the content.

That's bad for you both because you have being towny in the forefront of your mind, and because you gave Amph unjustified town points.

Is it Iguana being scummy or actually thinking that?  Just because he says something that could be scummy does not mean it is.  Most everything in this game is WIFOM and up to personal opinion.

I'd bet my non-existent hat you both are town.

eh... what, exactly, is the point of this post?

the concept of non-meta arguments means assuming that X is a scum tell for A because X is a scum tell for most people. Clearly, non-meta arguments can therefore always be wrong, if X is in fact not a scum tell for A. This is a general rule and has nothing to do with my post. Do you suggest that we should stop using any non-meta arguments? If not, then what are you trying to say?

EgorK

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #505 on: November 30, 2015, 03:01:30 pm »

Hey Egor, what's your main reason for thinking I'm scum?

What I posted in initial case. And now also, as Teproc put it, "gut"
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Ampharos

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #506 on: November 30, 2015, 03:04:07 pm »

there's a lot that would be tough to call constructive or helpful.

Can you support this statement with evidence?

Maybe I'm getting thrown by your one liners, which there are many.  Not that that's a bad thing, it just feels like tons of comments being tossed into what tends to be bigger conversations. 

3 posts example here, which is somewhat accurate for the extent of the game so far (there are some exceptions):

384  And here I was thinking you were voting for Ampharos because you thought he was scum. Silly me.
395  You know, you could make stronger point if you wouldn't lie.
420  So I guess I'm torn. iguana is active though, that a good thing.
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Ampharos

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #507 on: November 30, 2015, 03:06:32 pm »

see, this is one of the reasons why you are scummy, although not the most important one.

You think reads lists are towny. So you make a reads list, and now you expect to be towny because of it.

It does not work that way. towniness is not some progressive point gathering, it's a judgement of your alignment. Every scum can sit down and write a reads list. It depends on the content.

That's bad for you both because you have being towny in the forefront of your mind, and because you gave Amph unjustified town points.

Is it Iguana being scummy or actually thinking that?  Just because he says something that could be scummy does not mean it is.  Most everything in this game is WIFOM and up to personal opinion.

I'd bet my non-existent hat you both are town.

eh... what, exactly, is the point of this post?

the concept of non-meta arguments means assuming that X is a scum tell for A because X is a scum tell for most people. Clearly, non-meta arguments can therefore always be wrong, if X is in fact not a scum tell for A. This is a general rule and has nothing to do with my post. Do you suggest that we should stop using any non-meta arguments? If not, then what are you trying to say?

I'm saying I think you both are town and that I hope soon you will start working together instead of presenting a division for scum to exploit.  I also acknowledge that I could be totally wrong.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #508 on: November 30, 2015, 03:07:10 pm »

Hey Egor, what's your main reason for thinking I'm scum?

What I posted in initial case. And now also, as Teproc put it, "gut"
Okay. Then I won't get lynched.

Thanks for trying though.
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faust

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #509 on: November 30, 2015, 03:07:50 pm »

Well I thought these posts were helpful, or I wouldn't have posted them. Just because your style is lenghty posts doesn't make short commentary any less valuable. In 384, I am calling out iguana on his weird justification of his vote, in 395 I am pointing out that RR paints an inaccurate picture and in 420 I share my read on a player in the spotlight. I don't know why any of these should be considered "not constructive".

PPE: 2
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Ampharos

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #510 on: November 30, 2015, 03:21:26 pm »

Well I thought these posts were helpful, or I wouldn't have posted them. Just because your style is lenghty posts doesn't make short commentary any less valuable. In 384, I am calling out iguana on his weird justification of his vote, in 395 I am pointing out that RR paints an inaccurate picture and in 420 I share my read on a player in the spotlight. I don't know why any of these should be considered "not constructive".

PPE: 2

Right, I don't know if my phrasing was quite what I meant.  There's value there, for sure.  I'm just trying to find some way to clarify my concern other than coming across as condescending or belittling, since that is not my intent.  Basically, I want you to know why I'm voting for you but am having a hard time finding the correct words.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #511 on: November 30, 2015, 03:31:07 pm »

Ampharos

Basically, I got exactly what I was hoping I would get from Ampharos, which is a meaningful contribution to the game. His first few posts looked scummy to me, but now it looks more like he was drawing attention to himself because he knew he could show himself to be towny under scrutiny. At the same time, Ampharos seems like kind of a loose cannon. And that makes him harder to trust.

Wow, I don't get what you're saying here... I mean, I really don't. This description could be under "Ampharos is scummy" without having to change anything. What exactly points to him being town? It is most curios how the wagon suddenly puffed away for no real reason.

Maybe I am just showing my newbie idiocy here, but I still feel like putting all of your thoughts out into the open is townie, because scum would prefer to keep their ideas shrouded in secrecy. They are the ones with things to hide. So yeah Ampharos' reads list makes him look town, whereas the people who just attack everything while not contributing their thoughts themselves still look like scum to me.

If this is stupid or wrong, then I guess you'd better school me in the ways of playing the game backwards.

I don't know what I did to deserve this kind of attitude... but well. You could have explained what you meant with that read, which would have benefitted town. Instead you are agitating against me (I think? I'm not even sure. Where have I kept my ideas "shrouded in secrecy"?) and suddenly bring up a new point (Ampharos's reads list) that you didn't even mention before.

I think I was being a little extravagant in my last post and I apologize for the attitude.

Here is a clarification:

I tend to find players who are open about their reads of all other players as townie. For this reason, Ampharos swayed me with what looked like an open and on-point reads list. An exception would be if their reads completely disagree with my reads, because that makes me wonder why that player's persoective is so different from mine.

One thing that I find scummy is when players keep their reads guarded or don't seem to bother with reads, because I start to wonder what they want to hide.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #512 on: November 30, 2015, 03:36:32 pm »

I think I also want to come out and just say that I want to drop the Faust thing from my sig. I put it in because another player suggested it but on further thought I don't really like having something negative about Faust in my sig. He bested me last game, and I don't have bad feelings anymore. I think I just want to leave it at that.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

Ampharos

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #513 on: November 30, 2015, 03:41:02 pm »

I think I also want to come out and just say that I want to drop the Faust thing from my sig. I put it in because another player suggested it but on further thought I don't really like having something negative about Faust in my sig. He bested me last game, and I don't have bad feelings anymore. I think I just want to leave it at that.

I think we're on the same page.  We are both sensing something about faust this game but are trying not to be jerks about it.  I'd encourage you to keep up the pressure while trying to do so in a respectful manner.  I feel like we have something going and would hate to lose it simply because we're trying to be nice.  It's a balancing act, but I think you know what I mean.

Note to all: I find myself agreeing with Iguana on many things this game, and am aware this may cloud my judgement on him from here on out.  Feel free to slap me around with a fish should I start missing the obvious.   ;)
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #514 on: November 30, 2015, 03:42:52 pm »

Oh yeah, I do that with Iguana too. He's a really cool guy IRL. He'd make a good scum.
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silverspawn

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #515 on: November 30, 2015, 03:50:52 pm »

Oh yeah, I do that with Iguana too. He's a really cool guy IRL. He'd make a good scum.

he's probably making one right now.

iguanaiguana

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #516 on: November 30, 2015, 03:51:53 pm »

see, this is one of the reasons why you are scummy, although not the most important one.

You think reads lists are towny. So you make a reads list, and now you expect to be towny because of it.

It does not work that way. towniness is not some progressive point gathering, it's a judgement of your alignment. Every scum can sit down and write a reads list. It depends on the content.

That's bad for you both because you have being towny in the forefront of your mind, and because you gave Amph unjustified town points.

Is it Iguana being scummy or actually thinking that?  Just because he says something that could be scummy does not mean it is.  Most everything in this game is WIFOM and up to personal opinion.

I'd bet my non-existent hat you both are town.

eh... what, exactly, is the point of this post?

the concept of non-meta arguments means assuming that X is a scum tell for A because X is a scum tell for most people. Clearly, non-meta arguments can therefore always be wrong, if X is in fact not a scum tell for A. This is a general rule and has nothing to do with my post. Do you suggest that we should stop using any non-meta arguments? If not, then what are you trying to say?

I'm saying I think you both are town and that I hope soon you will start working together instead of presenting a division for scum to exploit.  I also acknowledge that I could be totally wrong.

So about this... I don't know. Silver right now falls into the second category of people I mentioned before: He's active and has reads but they disagree with mine so much I don't know what to make of them. I mean, if he is serious about me being on a scum team with Yuma then I am just flabbergasted. That sounds so incredibly unlikely...

As for Hydrad, IDK I guess I can see why someone might think that if they already think Hydrad and I look scummy. FWIW I'm not convinced at all Hydrad is town, but I have seen a few Hydrad games lately where he looked pretty scummy and then was able to come in, help town, and clear himself. I at least want to give him a chance to talk.

So reasonable people can disagree reasonably. I'm just not convinced on Silver either way yet.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

silverspawn

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #517 on: November 30, 2015, 03:58:13 pm »


given that you are my top scum read, it would be rather strange if you didn't disagree with my reads.

Generally, I can tell you that similarity of reads is a very, very bad metric for catching scum, particularly on day 1.

Teproc

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #518 on: November 30, 2015, 03:59:54 pm »


given that you are my top scum read, it would be rather strange if you didn't disagree with my reads.

Generally, I can tell you that similarity of reads is a very, very bad metric for catching scum, particularly on day 1.

It is known.
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yuma

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #519 on: November 30, 2015, 04:26:20 pm »

And WW is a blank page as always. His playstyle is way more anti-town than that of Awaclus.

Ha.

Ha. Ha.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #520 on: November 30, 2015, 04:29:01 pm »


given that you are my top scum read, it would be rather strange if you didn't disagree with my reads.

Generally, I can tell you that similarity of reads is a very, very bad metric for catching scum, particularly on day 1.

It is not just that your reads are different, but that your reasons don't make any sense to me. I call Yuma my top townread because of he made a very authentic looking claim right out of the gates; therefore, we must both be scum?

Like a lot of your other posts against me, this looks more like manipulation than sincerity. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. That is how it looks to me.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

silverspawn

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #521 on: November 30, 2015, 04:30:54 pm »


given that you are my top scum read, it would be rather strange if you didn't disagree with my reads.

Generally, I can tell you that similarity of reads is a very, very bad metric for catching scum, particularly on day 1.

It is not just that your reads are different, but that your reasons don't make any sense to me. I call Yuma my top townread because of he made a very authentic looking claim right out of the gates; therefore, we must both be scum?

Like a lot of your other posts against me, this looks more like manipulation than sincerity. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. That is how it looks to me.

the motivation for scum!yuma to fakeclaim what he did is pretty simple. it's the same as the motivation for town!yuma. He did it for towncred. I really don't see why he shouldn't be capable of doing that as scum.

Sure, it's still worth some town points, but not too many.

The reason why I semi-seriously called you a team was your excessive buddying.

yuma

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #522 on: November 30, 2015, 04:31:30 pm »

Meta sidenote : as it happens I genuinely don't know what Egork is referring to when he says he "can't talk about something" because I'm not involved in other games... but saying that way only makes people wonder, which defeats the purpose of not talking about ongoing games. I think the best way to approach is to say "gut read" or something.

To be fair, it was me who said the "can't talk about something" due to another game. He is talking about it because I was talking about it. But I only originally brought it up because he point blanked asked me if I had anything specific to rebut his points about RR, which I do. So sure, call it gut read. But in my opinion, calling something a gut read tends to give it less than zero weight. I don't give much credence to "gut reads" and most people don't either. And it isn't a gut read. I don't know how to handle meta games properly. All I can do is follow the rules and what I did is allowed for within the rules (as far as I can tell).
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yuma

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #523 on: November 30, 2015, 04:33:25 pm »


given that you are my top scum read, it would be rather strange if you didn't disagree with my reads.

Generally, I can tell you that similarity of reads is a very, very bad metric for catching scum, particularly on day 1.

It is not just that your reads are different, but that your reasons don't make any sense to me. I call Yuma my top townread because of he made a very authentic looking claim right out of the gates; therefore, we must both be scum?

Like a lot of your other posts against me, this looks more like manipulation than sincerity. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. That is how it looks to me.

the motivation for scum!yuma to fakeclaim what he did is pretty simple. it's the same as the motivation for town!yuma. He did it for towncred. I really don't see why he shouldn't be capable of doing that as scum.

Sure, it's still worth some town points, but not too many.

The reason why I semi-seriously called you a team was your excessive buddying.

back to vote: ss

I think this is how TA felt about me in GOP where he expected me to make sense, but something was just off (me being scum) so that while it was close I wasn't quite there...

If TA were in this game I think he would be all over this lynch.
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Teproc

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Re: M72: Marvel Heroes Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #524 on: November 30, 2015, 04:35:01 pm »

Right, I wasn't pointing fingers anyway. To your point : it shouldn't have weight. Because you can't talk about it. Talking about how you can't talk about it defeats the purpose. This thing you're thinking simply cannot be used as an argument, because it's from an ongoing game. The best would simply be to not mention at all I guess.
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