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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 38644 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #175 on: November 16, 2015, 11:08:38 am »
+1

Adam putting port below farming village makes me sad. :-\
Code: [Select]
18.) Farming Village   [X]
20.) Port   [X]

I try not to look too much into the really small deviations. The new interface for making lists is really good but it results in a little less precision than a good old-fashioned bucket sort.

Do I think Port is better than Farming Village? Yeah I think I do, and I think it's really close too. There are a lot of little details I would change about my list if I went back and took a close look at it, and a couple of big ones (Quarry and Magpie, anyone?).

But I think we get the big idea from this, and that's the point. The top three $3 cards are Amb, Masq, and Urchin. If you ever see more than one of them on a board then you're not going to this list to decide which one to open, this will just help people realize that those three cards are super-powerful.

For the record, I believe Wandering Minstrel is an order of magnitude better than any other $4 village. Herald doesn't count on that list, but that's because Herald doesn't quite fit the definition I'm looking for here (+1 Card/+2 Actions plus effect). Herald is about as good as WM. Hey look at that I put them right next to each other on my list! Wooo!
Farming Village is Village + small cycling effect.
Port is village + village. Not even close.

Yeah, I would MUCH rather have two vanilla Villages than one almost vanilla Village. Especially given the emergence of card modifying tokens, which Port (and Magpie) obviously love.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #176 on: November 16, 2015, 11:18:24 am »
+3

Farming Village is Village + small cycling effect.
Port is village + village. Not even close.

Like, you make a compelling argument for why Port should be above Farming Village, and I don't disagree with you.

But I don't think it's a compelling argument for why a lot of cards should be between them on this ranking. A village is a village, and if you're paying $4 for it, the effect is really similar. One of them isn't going to make a deck possible that the other isn't.

What can you actually take away from these card rankings? You know the general power level of a card compared to others who sort of cost the same thing. What kind of granularity are you really going to get? Like, maybe five levels on a list this large? Elite, trash, mediocre, above average, below average. I don't think there's much value in distinguishing on a finer level than that, and I think the only village that belongs on a different level than the rest of them is Wandering Minstrel.

I just don't see the value in distinguishing cards that are within 10 ranks of each other here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #177 on: November 16, 2015, 11:20:31 am »
+1

Especially given the emergence of card modifying tokens, which Port (and Magpie) obviously love.

I kind of really want to throw Training on Rats, and then just Summon an Island every turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #178 on: November 16, 2015, 11:24:44 am »
+1

This seems backwards to me.  Bridge makes a good engine better and turns a great engine into a phenomenal engine.  But it's mediocre during the engine-building phase.  Most often, it's equivalent to either a Woodcutter or a Woodcutter with +1 coin.  Bridge can't make a borderline kingdom an engine kingdom unless the missing piece is +buy, in which case there are dozens of cards that work as well as Bridge in the early and mid game..

You're focusing too much on the engine components. What really matters is the payload. Bridge is strong enough payload that you're willing to build even a weak engine to get that payload.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #179 on: November 16, 2015, 11:33:16 am »
0

(bro voice) It all matters, brah! Everything is important, right down to the tiniest fly up to the WHOLLLEEEE UNIVERSSSSSSEEEEE MAAAANNNNN!!!!

Compared to the UNIVERSE, man, we're all just SPECKS! Like, we don't even matter *whisper* but we do matter brah *end whisper* (end bro voice)

Ahem.

Umm, any deck that can play enough Bridges as a payload for it to matter would have to be a pretty strong engine in my book. Like, it's a great payload but it's a terminal payload card. If you can't hack it enough to play a bunch of them then, like, treasures are a pretty good payload too, you know?

I'm not denying that there are decks that become worth it once you add Bridge as a payload. I just think the whole

a surprising amount of non-engine games become engine games just because Bridge is in them.

can be countered by saying that I think this number would be lower than you would estimate. It's just my opinion, maaann. Let's just hug it out brraaaaaahhhhh.

Forgot to put the bro voice tags in there. My bee.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #180 on: November 16, 2015, 11:38:57 am »
+4

My bee.

I didn't think "my bad" could get more annoying.  I was wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #181 on: November 16, 2015, 11:40:35 am »
0

Yes, Remake got it's moment in the sun. I ranked it first and Tournament second. I didn't expect Ironmonger to be so high, but it makes sense since it's a card that almost always does something useful throughout the entire game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #182 on: November 16, 2015, 11:40:53 am »
+8

My bee.

I didn't think "my bad" could get more annoying.  I was wrong.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

My beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebrah

My bizzle?

OK that's all I got.

If my calculations are correct, this post will get many upvotes and I will feel dirty.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2015, 11:46:47 am »
+11

Guys, I think we broke Adam.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2015, 11:56:05 am »
+3

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

My beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebrah

If my calculations are correct, this post will get many upvotes and I will feel dirty.

Upvoted for the "brah" at the end.  Not so much for the copious middle.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2015, 11:59:55 am »
+1

(bro voice) It all matters, brah! Everything is important, right down to the tiniest fly up to the WHOLLLEEEE UNIVERSSSSSSEEEEE MAAAANNNNN!!!!

Compared to the UNIVERSE, man, we're all just SPECKS! Like, we don't even matter *whisper* but we do matter brah *end whisper* (end bro voice)

Ahem.

Umm, any deck that can play enough Bridges as a payload for it to matter would have to be a pretty strong engine in my book. Like, it's a great payload but it's a terminal payload card. If you can't hack it enough to play a bunch of them then, like, treasures are a pretty good payload too, you know?

I'm not denying that there are decks that become worth it once you add Bridge as a payload. I just think the whole

a surprising amount of non-engine games become engine games just because Bridge is in them.

can be countered by saying that I think this number would be lower than you would estimate. It's just my opinion, maaann. Let's just hug it out brraaaaaahhhhh.

Forgot to put the bro voice tags in there. My bee.

The point is that a Bridge engine doesn't have to work every turn. As long as it works a few times, that's enough. In some cases (NV+Bridge, Procession as the only splitter), it's never going to work more than once during the game and that one time is good enough. If your payload is treasures, your engine needs to be extremely reliable.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2015, 12:14:41 pm »
+6

Bridge is definitely a top 10 card. It's game-changingly good payload. Wandering Minstrel, Remake, and Smithy: these are all the answer to "how?" Bridge is the answer to "why?"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2015, 12:28:28 pm »
+1

I typed a response to both of these but then I realized I was just restating what I had said previously. So I guess this means we just agree to disagree. OK that's cool.

I still think I'm right and Bridge should be much lower on this list. I still think I'm right about the decks built with Bridge. I think people build a lot of decks that can never play more than 3-4 Bridges per turn that are worse than Big Money.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2015, 12:38:07 pm »
+4

I agree with Adam (to an extent). Bridge needs a whole engine environment - draw, villages (and lots of them), at best also trashing/sifting. That's not always around, and if it's not, Bridge is mostly useless. Bridge is useless on too many boards to deserve a Top 10 ranking.

That said, Adam's ranking of Bridge is also way too low. If the engine is there, you almost always want Bridge. I'd place it in the mid-teens.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2015, 12:44:05 pm »
+2

Bridge Troll, on the other hand, is fan-fucking-tastic.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2015, 12:57:05 pm »
0

Bridge Troll, on the other hand, is fan-fucking-tastic.

I don't think it is, it lacks stats pretty badly and it's a lot more expensive to get multiple. It may well be above average, but I'm pretty sure that's it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #191 on: November 16, 2015, 01:11:30 pm »
0

Bridge Troll, on the other hand, is fan-fucking-tastic.

I don't think it is, it lacks stats pretty badly and it's a lot more expensive to get multiple. It may well be above average, but I'm pretty sure that's it.
I'm sure Bridge Troll is quite good (don't forget about its attack), but it competes with other 5-cost cards and so I think it'll be tough for it to make it to the top 20. Incidentally, I have it right at the average mark for the 5-costs. I think I was being conservative because of my lack of experience with the card.

As a general note, it looks like I have underranked some of the villages this time around.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #192 on: November 16, 2015, 01:13:14 pm »
0

I typed a response to both of these but then I realized I was just restating what I had said previously. So I guess this means we just agree to disagree. OK that's cool.

I still think I'm right and Bridge should be much lower on this list. I still think I'm right about the decks built with Bridge. I think people build a lot of decks that can never play more than 3-4 Bridges per turn that are worse than Big Money.

If you choose to listen to me, you are part of the chosen few and you will be rewarded with superior Dominion performance. You will also be more in touch with the universe.

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I think Bridge is still my highest win rate given available (amalloy's page is down now, so I can't check, but it has always been). I might be wrong about a lot of stuff, but I'd like to believe that Bridge is far less likely to be one of those things than many other things.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #193 on: November 16, 2015, 01:16:56 pm »
+1

Bridge Troll is a lot easier to get multiples of in play, and the fact that you get cost reduction for two turns is just fucking awesome.  Worth the price of admission, and I'll go back for seconds.  Duplicate says "hi".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #194 on: November 16, 2015, 02:37:28 pm »
+1

Another person voted Herald first! I want to hug him or her.  :) Seventh place is awesome, even better than I had hoped! It actually beats both $4 Cursers and a lot of other stuff.

I do think Herald and also Wandering Minstrel should surpass Ironmonger in the next edition. Ironmonger may be a bit more flexible, and it's still a very good card, but it's either slightly unreliable (if your deck is not just Action cards) or just a Village (if it is). Alright, Herald has some uncertainty as well, because you might miss the Action card, but once your deck is mostly Action cards and they start cascading into each other, they're basically unstoppable. Wandering Minstrel provides more sifting and spying than Ironmonger as well.

I'm somewhat surprised at Remake being #1, but it's agreeable. Remake is one of the stronger trashers, both being able to trash multiple cards and gain other cards at the same time. Best case scenario, you trash 2 Estates and gain 2 $3 engine pieces (or Silvers if you need them). That's pretty damn awesome. And it trashes Coppers better than most other Remodel variants.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2015, 05:20:50 pm »
+1

remake, yeah. i was one of those 20 people. that card is a doozy, unless poor house is on the board, in which case, hey gang, who wants to come to my house for a crying party, in which you cry for all of the party.
remaking two estates into two silvers is, like, net $3 free money in the future, and you don't even always do that.

herald is a pretty good card. when it works out, it's +2 cards, +1.8 actions, because you don't get to choose what action you play. it works out, uh, a lot of the time, maybe, so it's about 1.7 cards, 1.5 actions on average, weighted to when you want cards and actions. i'm fine with him at 7th, it'll be easier to figure out if someone maths it out with random kingdom generation (honestly i think it would be a nice exercise to just root through kingdoms n quantify, how many have good trashing, how many have villages, etc). overpay is a bonus, and if there's any card you might want to overpay for regardless, it'll be a village. there's just too many times where i forget where i am in the shuffle and force several coppers on myself.

young witch might merit being higher. probably get to 5, probably give a curse to the bad guys on turn 3/4, i like those odds. i think a lot of the time with junkers we're thinking of them in the context of, both of us bought one anyway, so they might be stronger than we realize, and also i might be completely wrong and misleading in saying that, who knows. just, try to not get cultist, and have fun not doing things by turn 7.

speaking of, cultist is, like, almost certainly the best $5, no? ja?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2015, 06:06:22 pm »
0

I agree with Adam (to an extent). Bridge needs a whole engine environment - draw, villages (and lots of them), at best also trashing/sifting. That's not always around, and if it's not, Bridge is mostly useless. Bridge is useless on too many boards to deserve a Top 10 ranking.

The "wow" factor of a deck where you play multiple bridges every turn is the most important thing about them. But even without that, Bridge is great at picking up cheap pieces, for decks that want lots of cheap pieces. Even if you don't expect to draw enough cards to have multi-bridge turns, or there are no villages, it's still great support for e.g. conspirator, apothecary, mystic type decks, much better than (actual) gainers for this kind of deck, because it converts to (at worst) woodcutter in the endgame.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2015, 07:07:47 pm »
+1

I don't even know where to begin. The three and two card lists were decent, but man, the $4's for the most part are a travesty. I had Remake at 6, Bridge at 20, Quarry at 7, Jack at 19, and Sea Hag rightfully at 1.

With that said, I may have slightly underranked Remake. I'm not sure of it being 1 though. I stil think Hag is better, but I could potentially see it ranked as 2. It is a power trasher for sure and trashing is amazing.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 07:09:39 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2015, 07:08:15 pm »
+5

how all the cards that are now above sea hag fare in sea hag games: a bitter, much too bitter, but omg completely literally like 100% true, summary:

Herald vs. Sea Hag: oh, you put a curse on my deck? Well, I'll just draw it into my hand and then play an extra action card with like 20% probability. that'll show you.

Ironmonger vs. Sea Hag: oh, you put a curse on my deck? Well, I'll put it in my hand once more! the probability is only (number of curses in your deck - 1)/(cards in your deck) that the Ironmonger does nothing at all useful.

Magpie vs Sea Hag: Same! literally the same rebuttal.

Wandering Minstrel vs. Sea Hag: oh, you put a curse on my deck? Well, I'll just draw it into my hand and then discard a gold and two coppers, leaving another Wandering Minstrel on the deck to counter next turn's Sea Hag.

Tournament vs. Sea Hag: now you're really gonna get it! At turn like 19 I can gain a Followers; it will force you to discard your Sea Hag and give me an estate for my trouble.

Jack vs. Sea Hag: [ok this one is fair, Jack is awesome against Hag.]

Bridge vs. Sea Hag: now you can buy more vagrants, which still won't skip the curse on top but might help if the next card is also a curse.

but all sarcasm aside,

Remake vs. Sea Hag: the classic battle between Good and Evil. Spoiler alert: Evil wins. This one's not even close. Maybe if there's a truly awesome cantrip 3 I'll open Remake here, but that's it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2015, 07:10:37 pm »
+1

Remake vs. Sea Hag: the classic battle between Good and Evil. Spoiler alert: Evil wins. This one's not even close. Maybe if there's a truly awesome cantrip 3 I'll open Remake here, but that's it.

Alms/Baker/Borrow: Open both.
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