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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 77547 times)

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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2015, 02:50:24 pm »
0

Pilgrimage doesn't provide a +buy. That's a notable strike against it since you need a 2 turn investment. It means you'll need an engine with spare buys to make use of it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2015, 02:57:01 pm »
+4

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?

Off the top of my head: 1) It cycles 5 cards 2) You can trash on a Mission 3) You can play attacks like Militia 4) You can buy Events 5) You can play Travellers 6) You can set tokens 7) You can put Duration cards in play for next turn 8) There's more

I'm not sure where your analysis came from; there are tons of things that can be done with a second turn that do not involve buying cards. Mission is easily in the top 15 $4 options, probably deserving to be higher (I had it in the top 10). I think by next list people will have come around.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2015, 03:07:53 pm »
+1

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?

PPE: Aw, Ninja'd.

You can also:

Trash
Play Durations
Buy other Events
Attack
Get Coin Tokens
Play Prince
Play Monument
Play Native Village
Play Embargo
Put things on your Tavern Mat

I think Gardens is quite a bit better than Silk Road.  It's a rare game where Gardens aren't worth at least 3 VP as long as somebody buys them.  It takes quite a lot for Silk Road to be worth 3 VP (especially when initial Estates are trashed).  And it's easy to transition to Gardens lategame without much thought (they're basically 4-cost Duchies).  Silk Road demands more investment.

Agree. It's often easy to stuff your deck with a bunch of cards. They can even be useful cards sometimes. Stuffing it with a bunch of green cards is harder.

Farming Village over Mining Village, what is up with that?

Cutpurse seems way too low. That attack hurts, even worse than Militia early on. I have it at #23/57.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 03:17:11 pm by singletee »
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2015, 04:55:22 pm »
0

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?

Off the top of my head: 1) It cycles 5 cards 2) You can trash on a Mission 3) You can play attacks like Militia 4) You can buy Events 5) You can play Travellers 6) You can set tokens 7) You can put Duration cards in play for next turn 8) There's more

I'm not sure where your analysis came from; there are tons of things that can be done with a second turn that do not involve buying cards. Mission is easily in the top 15 $4 options, probably deserving to be higher (I had it in the top 10). I think by next list people will have come around.

Fair enough! I highly doubt you'd ever spend the buy and $4 for just the 5 card cycling, but the rest, probably.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2015, 06:50:40 pm »
0

Pilgrimage and Mission are way too low. What's up with that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2015, 10:29:02 am »
+1

markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2015, 10:49:06 am »
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Advisor and Procession moved up to about where I have them. Nice.

I noticed I put Transmogrify in my top 10. That's probably a major overestimation of its rank.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2015, 10:53:00 am »
0

Moneylender should be higher.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2015, 10:56:46 am »
0

Moneylender should be higher.
I have it at #23. I'm willing to accept that it can be even higher than that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2015, 11:44:23 am »
+3

Advisor and Procession moved up to about where I have them. Nice.

I noticed I put Transmogrify in my top 10. That's probably a major overestimation of its rank.

I wouldn't say Transmogrify is top 10, but I think it is underrated in this list. It's a bit of a difficult card to use / grasp, but the ability to switch what engine component you have on the fly is remarkable. A same-turn Remodel that changes your early Silvers into villages and draw cards in the midgame is just so potent.

I think Duplicate is also just a smidge underrated here. It's also a bit hard to get a grasp on, but it really comes in handy.

Otherwise I'm agreeing with the way things are going on this list. Well, Cutpurse is a little low, but I guess the -1 Coin tokens are almost strictly better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #110 on: November 14, 2015, 12:37:18 pm »
0

Good to see Procession moved upwards. I wanted to mention that I did not put it at #1... it's in my top 10 though, I'm still a fan boy ;)
I guess Procession might be the craziest 4$ card around. It's not always great but it might be good in more situations people are aware of. And sometimes it's just bonkers.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 12:59:23 pm by assemble_me »
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #111 on: November 14, 2015, 12:52:41 pm »
+2

Wow.  I have some substantial deviations from this list, now.

Quarry: I have this in my top 10.  Without +buy, Quarry is a Gold for most of the game.  Opening with a Gold is pretty good, it turns out.  But Quarry really shines when paired with a cheap source of +buy.  With two Quarries in play, you can use (almost) all of your buys on 5-cost actions.  Combine Quarry with Haggler, Talisman, or Border Village purchases for insane results.  Sure, Quarry is a bad card once you want to start greening.  But it's a great target for most Estate trashers (Remodel, Salvager, Bishop, Transmogrify, Remake, etc...).  Convert that Quarry into a Duchy, Gold, or engine piece, depending on your need.

Remodel > Salvager: I see these cards as serving similar purposes: Estate trashing, removing undesired cards, and generating victory points.
Estate Trashing: Remodel is better when there are multiple good engine pieces that cost 3 or 4 coins.  Salvager is better when it's important to reach 5 coins.
Removing Undesired Cards (fast trashers, junkers after junk is gone, gained Silvers, Rats, etc...): In the mid-game, with Remodel one is likely to be able to get two 5-6 cost cards after trashing one of these undesired cards.  The advantage of Salvager is flexibility.  If you want a power 7-cost card, you can get that.  If you get an unusually strong or weak hand, you can adapt to that and make the best of your coins with an additional buy.  Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Generating Victory Points: Remodeling Gold into Province is well known and powerful.  If you expect to have Golds or 6-cost cards, Remodel is great for grabbing extra Provinces in the endgame.  Salvager cannot generate as many victory points as Remodel in the best case scenario, but it can help generate 8-coin hands by trashing another action card (whereas with Remodel, you may have to settle for two Duchies or worse).
Which is better depends on the board and one's strategy, but I tend to prefer Remodel.

Fortress > Plaza: Both are villages; let's examine the additional benefit.  Many boards contain a decent trash-for-benefit card that you want to use for Estate trashing (like the above-mentioned cards).  There is a period of time between Estate trashing and victory card gaining where these cards are looking for something worthwhile to do.  Enter Fortress: the village that always provides a good target for trash-for-benefit.  A really good target.  There are other trash-for-benefit cards that work well with Fortress (Procession, Apprentice, Stonemason).  Fortress is a good counter to trashing attacks.  Fortress is also good to have with cards where trashing might be undesirable (Mercenary, Trade Route, Rats).  Fortress can also be unusually put in hand mid-turn by cards like Watchtower (with gainer), Hermit, Doctor, and Lookout.  Plaza, on the other hand, almost always provides a small benefit (coin smoothing) - the exception is in the presence of fast trashers.  This is a decent benefit, but nothing special.  Plaza is only great in conjunction with draw-to-X cards (and Menagerie).  Unfortunately, there are only four such cards - compared to dozens of cards that work well with Fortress.

Advisor > Caravan: Both provide a nonterminal two cards.  Advisor provides the worst 2/3 cards immediately.  Caravan provides two average-quality cards - one this turn and one the next.  Advisor provides a little faster cycling, at the downside of being unable to play one's key card(s) as often.  But Caravan itself misses more shuffles than Advisor.  The deciding factor for me, though, is that Advisor gets better as one approaches being able to draw one's whole deck; Caravan gets worse.  If I'm playing with Advisor or Caravan, I generally expect to reach that point - and sooner rather than later.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2015, 01:05:35 pm »
+2

Salvager is better when it's important to reach 5 coins.

Well, that's usually the only difference that matters.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2015, 01:24:16 pm »
+6

Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Note that this is an argument in favor of Salvager and against Remodel on any board where there aren't 2-costs that you want as many of as possible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2015, 01:53:56 pm »
0

Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Note that this is an argument in favor of Salvager and against Remodel on any board where there aren't 2-costs that you want as many of as possible.
There is some truth to this, but it is unfair to say "as many of as possible"; trashing 0-cost cards is rarely a tertiary priority when I buy Remodel; I don't expect to do so often.  On the flip side: very rarely do I want to use Salvager to trash a single Copper from my hand.  And I'm not going to feel great about using Salvager to trash a Curse, but it could happen.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #115 on: November 14, 2015, 02:34:14 pm »
0

Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Note that this is an argument in favor of Salvager and against Remodel on any board where there aren't 2-costs that you want as many of as possible.
There is some truth to this, but it is unfair to say "as many of as possible"; trashing 0-cost cards is rarely a tertiary priority when I buy Remodel; I don't expect to do so often.  On the flip side: very rarely do I want to use Salvager to trash a single Copper from my hand.  And I'm not going to feel great about using Salvager to trash a Curse, but it could happen.

I want to use Salvager to trash a single Copper whenever it doesn't align with an Estate.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2015, 08:38:16 pm »
+2

reminder that with any decent trashing, envoy is basically a $4 hunting grounds

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #117 on: November 14, 2015, 08:41:32 pm »
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reminder that with any decent trashing, envoy is basically a $4 hunting grounds

I particularly disagree with Envoy being below Smithy, but people seem to weigh Envoy's drawback into evaluating it more than I do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2015, 08:58:34 pm »
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to be fair, it was your posting that got me to take a closer look at it.  i still don't get it in practice yet, but i see the potential now at least.  greening scares me, i will say!

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #119 on: November 15, 2015, 04:59:57 am »
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Envoy is pretty good in a reliable engine. The problem is that building a reliable engine with Envoy is a lot more difficult than building it with Smithy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #120 on: November 15, 2015, 08:27:47 am »
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Envoy is really good and I rated it much higher. As a community we did good with the $2 and $3s but I feel a lot of $4s are way of for some reason
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #121 on: November 15, 2015, 09:55:37 am »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #122 on: November 15, 2015, 10:02:19 am »
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I'm surprised Monument dropped as much as it did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #123 on: November 15, 2015, 10:06:11 am »
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I'm glad to see the Sky Rats (i.e. Magpies) made it into the top 11!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #124 on: November 15, 2015, 10:12:00 am »
+1

Throne Room and Procession should be closer.
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