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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 38646 times)

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drsteelhammer

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2015, 08:39:52 am »
0

To get away from the Farming Village discussion before it even came up:

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

That said, I tried Trader/Rats once. Once....
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2015, 08:42:25 am »
+1


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.

That's not what you said just before... "Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck." Now you're saying it doesn't do anything if it is in your deck. Which is the statement that has clearly been proven false by numerous examples. All you have done is said that you think there are often likely stronger strategies available than the ones in which Farming Village helps. You have absolutely note contradicted a single one of my statements about examples of times when Farming Village's ability absolutely does do something.

Farming Village never does anything when it's in your deck because it never is in your deck when it could possibly do something. It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

This statement is flat-out false. Any time you buy a Farming Village, unless other weird stuff happens, Farming Village will be in your deck. So it is absolutely NOT "never in your deck." Maybe it's not ever in YOUR deck specifically. Well that's fine. It's in lots of other people's decks.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "I think that buying Farming Village means you aren't following the best strategy available" and "Farming Village won't ever be in your deck"? Or are you just trolling?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 08:44:12 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2015, 09:00:40 am »
0

To get away from the Farming Village discussion before it even came up:

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

That said, I tried Trader/Rats once. Once....
Never played it. You probably don't want more than 5 rats or so ever.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2015, 09:04:25 am »
0

The extent to which you've gone to state your lack of preference for Farming Village is getting ridiculous. You'd pick up Pearl Diver over it? It literally never does anything? Come on, you have to know both of these are crazy. Even if you have enough villages I would pick up Farming Village over Pearl Diver just for insurance. And you've literally never played a game where you bought Villages when you couldn't trash Estates, or bought Villages in the face of Cursing attacks?

At a certain point you go from rational disagreement to irrational prejudice, and I think when you're saying Pearl Diver is better than a village that guarantees you drawing a useful card, you've gotten to that point. It's a minor benefit, we get it. You don't see this kind of passionate disagreement with the merits of, say, Mining Village, whose benefit is similarly minor (but still important). I don't get why you have such a strong opinion on this.

Yes, I have played two games where I bought Farming Villages even though I didn't need splitters and in both games, I would have rather had Pearl Divers. Getting an extra Farming Village in a deck that already has other splitters that you need is definitely better than Pearl Diver a lot of the time, but you're still getting it for its vanilla Village effect, not for its nonexistent benefit over a vanilla Village.

And yes, I've literally never played a game with Estate trashing in the kingdom where I couldn't trash Estates. Well, aside from games where Dame Anna is the only trasher and it's my opponent who gets it, but that doesn't really matter because the point wasn't really about which cards are in the kingdom, but rather, which cards you can actually get. I also haven't played a game with Estate trashing available where Curse trashing wasn't available as well.

Farming Village doesn't guarantee you drawing a useful card, it still stops at Treasures. If it dug for a useful card, it would actually be pretty good.

Mining Village's benefit is not even close to being as minor as Farming Village's. An extra +$10 or so on your last turn makes a major difference as long as you have some +buys, skipping one Province per game if you're lucky doesn't make any difference at all.

I have a strong opinion because I used to agree with the consensus that Farming Village was better than Walled Village, then I played a few thousand more games of Dominion and realized that it was wrong, and now this list shows that the consensus is still just as wrong as it has always been. I'm trying to change it.

This statement is flat-out false. Any time you buy a Farming Village, unless other weird stuff happens, Farming Village will be in your deck. So it is absolutely NOT "never in your deck." Maybe it's not ever in YOUR deck specifically. Well that's fine. It's in lots of other people's decks.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "I think that buying Farming Village means you aren't following the best strategy available" and "Farming Village won't ever be in your deck"? Or are you just trolling?

I don't care. Scout is probably super good in your deck if you open Mint/Estate and rush to win the Estate split as soon as you can, but stuff like that shouldn't be taken into account when ranking the cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2015, 09:16:19 am »
+9

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2015, 09:24:45 am »
0

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

Trader can be massively effective against junkers, especially in multiplayer games. It suits a variety of big deck, silver rich strategies as well. It isn't really an engine card so it won't be ranked well for two player games.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2015, 09:26:09 am »
0

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.
I think Trader is a bottom-tier Estate trasher for engines (like Trade Route).  Storyteller works well with a bunch of Silvers, so that's a synergy.  Apprentice + Trader seems decent.  Use Trader to trash Estates.  Use apprentice to trash Trader (when finished) and Silvers.

Trader is really solid in slogs and big money.  Trash Estates for two Silvers apiece, trash colliding Traders for four Silvers.  Trash Silver for three Silvers.  Even if you don't use the reaction much, Trader puts enough Silver in your deck to dwarf what junkers can hand out (including the hard-to-counter Ill-Gotten Gains).  And there's a clear Feodum synergy.  On some boards (mostly those with strong junking and weak trashing), I expect Trader to be a good card.  I think it's about in the correct spot.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2015, 09:30:04 am »
+1

I don't care. Scout is probably super good in your deck if you open Mint/Estate and rush to win the Estate split as soon as you can, but stuff like that shouldn't be taken into account when ranking the cards.

Are you completely unaware that this entire discussion hasn't had anything to do with how good Farming Village is, or where it should be ranked? It has been completely about your clearly false statement that with trashing, Farming Village "literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all", and your continued refusal to admit that the statement is obviously false, as shown by counterexamples. No one is even arguing with you that Farming Village is good.
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yuma

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2015, 09:42:47 am »
+8

This seems applicable:

So, you are verifying once and for all what an incredible waste of time it is for anyone to try to argue about this with you.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2015, 09:54:54 am »
0

Are you completely unaware that this entire discussion hasn't had anything to do with how good Farming Village is, or where it should be ranked? It has been completely about your clearly false statement that with trashing, Farming Village "literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all", and your continued refusal to admit that the statement is obviously false, as shown by counterexamples. No one is even arguing with you that Farming Village is good.

I have already admitted that the statement is false when your opponent Swindles your $4 big money terminal into a Farming Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2015, 10:31:37 am »
0

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

That said, I tried Trader/Rats once. Once....

I'm a big Trader fan. It's fun when the board doesn't have Colonies and no super engine components.

It's got a special place in my heart with lots of cheap +buy on the board. Buy coppers, gain silver instead = wooo!
I also like Trader with Embargo. Embargo Province, reveal and buy for a Province and Silver.
Though I'm not saying it's good.

Now I want to try Trader / Rats.

Marcory

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2015, 11:17:55 am »
0

Trader's good against Mountebank--instead of getting two junk cards, you're getting Silvers. Plus, Trader improves your economy in the early game to make it easier to get Mountebanks in the first place.

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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2015, 11:54:47 am »
0

Are you completely unaware that this entire discussion hasn't had anything to do with how good Farming Village is, or where it should be ranked? It has been completely about your clearly false statement that with trashing, Farming Village "literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all", and your continued refusal to admit that the statement is obviously false, as shown by counterexamples. No one is even arguing with you that Farming Village is good.

I have already admitted that the statement is false when your opponent Swindles your $4 big money terminal into a Farming Village.

The statement is false without any extra "when" or "if". The statement was that Farming Village does nothing in your deck. In fact, it does do something in your deck, whether it was added to your deck by Swindler, or bought with coins, or gained with a gainer. But Yuma and Donald X are spot on here.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2015, 12:09:54 pm »
0

You know what, I'm actually going to agree with Awaclus that Pearl Driver's put-bottom-card-on-top effect is useful more often than Farming Village's draw-a-Treasure-or-Action. Plus Pearl Diver costs less.

The rest of the discussion is an argument over usage of the word literraly. I don't think Awaclus should have used the word literally when he did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2015, 12:52:05 pm »
+1

Trader's good against Mountebank--instead of getting two junk cards, you're getting Silvers. Plus, Trader improves your economy in the early game to make it easier to get Mountebanks in the first place.
Trader doesn't help early game economy. It helps late game endurance. If you want to get mountebank asap you should open double silver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2015, 01:36:39 pm »
+1

drsteelhammer

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2015, 01:43:32 pm »
+1

Ugh, all the Adventures cards besides Miser seem lower than I expected. Especially Ranger feels rather strong in engines where you can set your token up...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2015, 01:46:58 pm »
+7

Okay, Mining Village is *definitely* better than Farming Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2015, 01:48:43 pm »
0

Okay, Mining Village is *definitely* better than Farming Village.

Agreed; that's surprising.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2015, 02:09:11 pm »
0

Ugh, all the Adventures cards besides Miser seem lower than I expected. Especially Ranger feels rather strong in engines where you can set your token up...

The thing about Ranger that gets me is that it seems worse to have two Ranger than to have two Smithy on average. I mean if you can ensure the token is flipped favorably at end of turn the initial +5 boost is huge, but in the long run you're getting +2.5 cards per Ranger.

I'm very surprised Mining Village isn't better than Farming Village, and also that Silk Road fell below Gardens.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2015, 02:14:49 pm »
0

Okay, Mining Village is *definitely* better than Farming Village.
Farming Village feels better, because sometimes you're skipping an Estate and think "hey, super!".
Mining Village isn't that flashy until you start trashing them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2015, 02:18:43 pm »
+1

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2015, 02:32:00 pm »
+3

The thing about Ranger that gets me is that it seems worse to have two Ranger than to have two Smithy on average. I mean if you can ensure the token is flipped favorably at end of turn the initial +5 boost is huge, but in the long run you're getting +2.5 cards per Ranger.
Playing two Rangers also provides +2 Buy, which is very helpful in an engine.  And while I agree that Ranger isn't as valuable as Smithy, I believe Ranger is ranked too low.

I'm very surprised Mining Village isn't better than Farming Village, and also that Silk Road fell below Gardens.
I think Gardens is quite a bit better than Silk Road.  It's a rare game where Gardens aren't worth at least 3 VP as long as somebody buys them.  It takes quite a lot for Silk Road to be worth 3 VP (especially when initial Estates are trashed).  And it's easy to transition to Gardens lategame without much thought (they're basically 4-cost Duchies).  Silk Road demands more investment.

Remaining reactions:
Miser is way too high.  Not all deck thinners are good (see Trade Route).  Miser is, IMO, worse.
Pilgrimage is far too low.  It's a fantastic gainer.  For two 4-coin installments, you can gain a King's Court, Grand Market, and Bank!  Okay, that's not the average case, but Pilgrimage is often awesome.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2015, 02:40:51 pm »
0

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2015, 02:45:13 pm »
+1

Ugh, all the Adventures cards besides Miser seem lower than I expected. Especially Ranger feels rather strong in engines where you can set your token up...

The thing about Ranger that gets me is that it seems worse to have two Ranger than to have two Smithy on average. I mean if you can ensure the token is flipped favorably at end of turn the initial +5 boost is huge, but in the long run you're getting +2.5 cards per Ranger.

I'm very surprised Mining Village isn't better than Farming Village, and also that Silk Road fell below Gardens.

But having the first ranger draw 5cards is a lot more reliable than getting two smithies in play (in an engine, that is)
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