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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 37964 times)

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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2015, 01:38:23 pm »
0

Wow, #50 is really low for Death Cart. +$5 is a LOT, even if it runs the risk of being a one-shot (but it usually isn't if you build your deck around it).
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2015, 01:54:29 pm »
+5

Wow, #50 is really low for Death Cart. +$5 is a LOT, even if it runs the risk of being a one-shot (but it usually isn't if you build your deck around it).

It's really high for Death Cart. +$5 for 3 stop cards in your deck is awful.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2015, 02:13:03 pm »
+4

1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

Then you probably don't really want the Farming Village either, unless you're playing an alt-VP strategy with terminal gainers, in which case the splitter might actually be nice, but especially in that case, you'd rather have Walled Village.

2. You haven't managed matched your trashing card with your all your Estates yet.

The Farming Village isn't really going to help you do that.

3. Your opponent is playing a cursing attack.

And then you can trash the Curses with whatever card you trashed the Estates with.

4. You have victory cards in your deck that aren't Estates.

Not until the very end of the game, at which point you also have so many non-Victory cards that it still really doesn't do anything.

5. It is a Shelters game.

In which case Farming Village is even worse because it doesn't skip Necropolis.

6. Your opponent is playing Ambassador.

And so are you.

7. The Estate trashing that exists is terrible, like nothing but Trade Route. (Somewhat redundant with #1)

This still applies:
If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

Yeah, sometimes Farming Village might skip a card after you start greening. It still doesn't make any difference whatsoever. When you find Walled Village in a dud hand, its ability might actually avoid multiple other dud hands for you.

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2015, 02:15:04 pm »
0

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.

And I pointed out why it can actually do none of those things.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2015, 03:16:39 pm »
+4

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.

And I pointed out why it can actually do none of those things.

You didn't. In Shelters games Farming Village can't skip Necropolis, and is thus worse. But it can still skip Hovel and Overgrown Estate. That's not "nothing". Literally.

GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2015, 03:17:26 pm »
+3

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.

And I pointed out why it can actually do none of those things.

How in the world do you think that? Let's just look at one example.

Quote
Quote
1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

Then you probably don't really want the Farming Village either, unless you're playing an alt-VP strategy with terminal gainers, in which case the splitter might actually be nice, but especially in that case, you'd rather have Walled Village.

Your response in no way whatsoever is pointing out that Farming Village cannot do anything in that situation. It is saying that you probably want a different strategy than the one you are playing. It's pointing out that in your opinion, Walled Village is a stronger option. It is NOT in any way saying that Farming Village doesn't skip past Estates when you have Estates in your deck.

The exact same thing applies to every one of your replies. Not a single one of them contradicts the statement that Farming Village literally does do something in those situations.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2015, 04:27:35 pm »
+4

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway
But they're comparing Farming Village to Walled Village. Awaclus is arguing that Walled Village is vanilla Village with a small +, and that Farming Village isn't even that most of the time.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

i get that, but nobody's talking about how absurd that walled village ranking is.  single biggest disagreement i have with any of these so far

from what i've read, it seems like trashers were the most underrated class of cards a few years ago.  nowadays i think it's definitely villages.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2015, 04:42:25 pm »
+4

Yeah, Walled Village being this low is completely absurd.  The differences between the villages are mostly very small.  I think I had them all (except Wandering Minstrel and maybe one other?) between #30 and #20.  The fact that its extra bonus is not as nice as say Worker's Village's extra bonus is not enough to justify a difference in 20+ rankings (guessing Worker's Village will be way up there).

Rats seems too low to me.  While it does need support in order to not be completely useless (and even harmful), it finds that support reasonably often, and in many cases it's just completely bonkers (Apprentice, Bishop, Upgrade, Watchtower).  Also, I would speculate that some of the tokens from Adventures make it even more nuts (though I have not tried this myself).

Nomad Camp is way too high.  Like Woodcutter, the only real appeal to it is that it's +buy and maybe it's the only +buy card on the board.  Every now and then, you can do something clever with the on-gain ability, but it's only a very slight benefit, and I'm not sure it even justifies the $4 cost.  No way it's better than Rats, and I have trouble believing it's better than Talisman.

Death Cart also seems very overrated.  It's quite awful.  The best case scenario is that you're using it as payload with Fortress, and you're able to draw it with Fortress every time and you're over-drawing your deck so you don't need to worry about the extra Ruins.  I mean that's nice, then it's just terminal +$5, but that's a very specific case.  Without Fortress or Rats, it's pretty much useless.  It's $5 split over two cards, and you either have to trash a nice action for it (which often is not worth it, and when it is, only marginally), or else you have to trash a Ruins, which is pretty nice, but then you remember Death Cart is what gave you that Ruins in the first place.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2015, 05:09:16 pm »
+1

I think Bureaucrat, Spy, Walled Village and Rats should all be a bit higher than they are now.

B-Crat is not a rockstar, but it is useful more often then any other cards in the lowest tier.
Spy is always mediocre, but sometimes you want to increase your action density  - and here it is, the most mystical man in the world of Dominion!
Walled Village's ability is khem anybody used it recently? But it's a Village, slightly worse then a regular Village just because of being a bit more pricy.
And Rats are just so good when they are good - and that being with Butcher (!!), Apprentice, Salvager, Vineyards, Upgrade, Procession (no!), aand i forgot something else probably.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2015, 06:36:49 pm »
+4

I've had some success with Walled Village in a double Amb deck, I think WV was quite a lot better than other villages there. I rated Farming Village higher aswell though, which in retrospect doesn't make much sense to me.

Definitely agree about Nomad Camp, it not THAT much better than Woodcutter.

Why has nobody mentioned Feodum yet? It is waaaaay more situational than Rats, for example.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2015, 07:06:35 pm »
0

Man, all I have to say is $4 has some bad cards. Feodum is rarely good. You need a strong enabler.

Rats should be higher.

Baron should be lower.

Death Cart maybe should be lower. Really, the main reason to buy this is to lower piles or Vineyards.

Villages are always good. I feel some other less deserving cards are above it.

Haven't played much with Messenger, but my feeling is that the card is not much good.

I'm not the biggest fan of Nomad Camp. I know it's +Buy, but more often than not, when you want to hit $5, it just doesn't happen.

Anyway, why does $4 have so many yucky cards?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2015, 07:08:45 pm »
+1

death cart is also nice in nasty slogs, to be fair.  can be your only chance of landing a province toward the end in those games.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2015, 07:10:11 pm »
0

death cart is also nice in nasty slogs, to be fair.  can be your only chance of landing a province toward the end in those games.

True, but you just made your deck even sloggier by adding two crap cards to it.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2015, 07:22:23 pm »
0

You didn't. In Shelters games Farming Village can't skip Necropolis, and is thus worse. But it can still skip Hovel and Overgrown Estate. That's not "nothing". Literally.

But you still have the trashing so you're going to trash them.

Your response in no way whatsoever is pointing out that Farming Village cannot do anything in that situation. It is saying that you probably want a different strategy than the one you are playing. It's pointing out that in your opinion, Walled Village is a stronger option. It is NOT in any way saying that Farming Village doesn't skip past Estates when you have Estates in your deck.

It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2015, 08:37:02 pm »
+1

But you still have the trashing so you're going to trash them.

Okay, I am aware of that. The point remains that in some cases FV's ability has a nonzero benefit. Such as... before you play your trasher on the junk. Or after you are greening. Or, for a couple more salient examples, when you are using Apothecary or getting hit by Rabble.

Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2015, 09:18:47 pm »
0

Okay, I am aware of that. The point remains that in some cases FV's ability has a nonzero benefit. Such as... before you play your trasher on the junk. Or after you are greening. Or, for a couple more salient examples, when you are using Apothecary or getting hit by Rabble.

Apothecary, Rabble and other cases where your green cards tend to concentrate on top of your deck actually make Farming Village better than a vanilla Village. Outside of those cases, it is beneficial to think of it as literally just a $4 vanilla Village.
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DG

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2015, 09:43:25 pm »
0

Apothecary, Rabble and other cases where your green cards tend to concentrate on top of your deck actually make Farming Village better than a vanilla Village. Outside of those cases, it is beneficial to think of it as literally just a $4 vanilla Village.

I wouldn't disregard the drawing benefit. It can be a better card to add to a deck than silver even if you can't use the +actions.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2015, 09:53:56 pm »
0

Apothecary, Rabble and other cases where your green cards tend to concentrate on top of your deck actually make Farming Village better than a vanilla Village. Outside of those cases, it is beneficial to think of it as literally just a $4 vanilla Village.

I wouldn't disregard the drawing benefit. It can be a better card to add to a deck than silver even if you can't use the +actions.

Well, any cantrip can be a better card than Silver, but in those situations, I'd usually take Pearl Diver over FV if I really don't need the +actions for anything.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2015, 10:56:17 pm »
+4


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2015, 11:41:38 pm »
0


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2015, 01:11:49 am »
0


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.

That's not what you said just before... "Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck." Now you're saying it doesn't do anything if it is in your deck. Which is the statement that has clearly been proven false by numerous examples. All you have done is said that you think there are often likely stronger strategies available than the ones in which Farming Village helps. You have absolutely note contradicted a single one of my statements about examples of times when Farming Village's ability absolutely does do something.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2015, 02:27:51 am »
0


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.

That's not what you said just before... "Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck." Now you're saying it doesn't do anything if it is in your deck. Which is the statement that has clearly been proven false by numerous examples. All you have done is said that you think there are often likely stronger strategies available than the ones in which Farming Village helps. You have absolutely note contradicted a single one of my statements about examples of times when Farming Village's ability absolutely does do something.

Farming Village never does anything when it's in your deck because it never is in your deck when it could possibly do something. It shouldn't be a difficult concept.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2015, 02:44:28 am »
+6

Quote
Farming Village never does anything when it's in your deck because it never is in your deck when it could possibly do something. It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

Words like "literally never" have very specific meanings. Using them with different meanings, then doubling down when you're misunderstood, is not likely to win you many converts.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2015, 05:38:58 am »
0

Words like "literally never" have very specific meanings.

Okay, I guess you could get a Farming Village from your opponent's Swindler while playing Smithy+big money or something. That isn't really something you should take into account when rating cards, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2015, 07:49:21 am »
+7

The extent to which you've gone to state your lack of preference for Farming Village is getting ridiculous. You'd pick up Pearl Diver over it? It literally never does anything? Come on, you have to know both of these are crazy. Even if you have enough villages I would pick up Farming Village over Pearl Diver just for insurance. And you've literally never played a game where you bought Villages when you couldn't trash Estates, or bought Villages in the face of Cursing attacks?

At a certain point you go from rational disagreement to irrational prejudice, and I think when you're saying Pearl Diver is better than a village that guarantees you drawing a useful card, you've gotten to that point. It's a minor benefit, we get it. You don't see this kind of passionate disagreement with the merits of, say, Mining Village, whose benefit is similarly minor (but still important). I don't get why you have such a strong opinion on this.
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