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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 37968 times)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2015, 01:52:50 pm »
0

Had the same bottom 11, except Miser switched with Bureaucrat.  I probably overrated Bureaucrat, but it has its uses in the right situations.  And I'm sure Miser is coming up in the next section.

Taxman should be ahead of Talisman, but we're looking at some pretty fringe-use cards here and splitting hairs.
Taxman is generally better than talisman but when either of them are good talisman is a rockstar and taxman is meh.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2015, 02:01:32 pm »
+3

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

I don't think how good a card is when you randomly add it to a deck is a good measure of the goodness of a card. You buy Rats when you shouldn't and you definitely play the card from your hand too often. Doesn't make Rats worse than Thief and Spy. Rats has its place, Thief just really doesn't.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.

Thief is way more situational than Rats, and even when it's good, it's not as good as Rats when Rats is good. Even if there's trashing and no virtual money, Thief isn't usually very good because either your opponent went for big money without the trashing and your Thief is still partially helping him or he went for an engine and your Thief is mostly hitting 2 Actions. But Rats is good almost whenever there's cost-based TfB and no other trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2015, 02:07:04 pm »
+1

Had the same bottom 11, except Miser switched with Bureaucrat.  I probably overrated Bureaucrat, but it has its uses in the right situations.  And I'm sure Miser is coming up in the next section.

Taxman should be ahead of Talisman, but we're looking at some pretty fringe-use cards here and splitting hairs.
Taxman is generally better than talisman but when either of them are good talisman is a rockstar and taxman is meh.

Yes, I was thinking of this.  This tends to be the crux of a lot of variation in people's rankings, whether you think being generally okay is more important than being occasionally very good.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.

The thing with Rats is it really only needs one enabler card (a trasher that can make use of the fact that it costs 4, like Apprentice or Bishop) to be a useful part of a strategy.  When it's the wrong choice it's a big mistake, but you'll find plenty of boards that have Rats and one other card like that.

Thief requires the perfect situation to develop, which is to say that there's no virtual coin (rare), no strategy that can outrace the Thief attacks (rarer), and the ability to play it enough times to get the value you need out of stopping to pick it up.  That's not just one card that affects the value of Thief, but the entire other 9 cards.  And yeah, I'm sure there are some other situations that can make Thief useful, but they are so uncommon to be almost negligible.  If I'm ranking every card 1-237, Thief is only above Scout.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 02:18:13 pm »
0

Spy should be higher. I'm not sure how much higher, but it's better than Taxman. It's a card you buy in engines when you don't hit $5 and don't want Silver, which happens quite often. The Spy attack + self-filtering is also surprisingly good at slowing down money decks and making your engine more consistent.

It plays a bigger role in Base only games than games with all expansions, so I can understand it being down pretty low. But, I mean, Taxman is garbage. (And this is coming from the person who really wants Taxman to not be garbage.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 02:22:28 pm »
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Yes, I was thinking of this.  This tends to be the crux of a lot of variation in people's rankings, whether you think being generally okay is more important than being occasionally very good.

Well, in the case of Taxman vs Talisman, it's that both of them are worse than nothing most of the time, so it doesn't matter which one is better because you're getting neither. What matters is that Talisman can be good enough that sometimes you actually buy one.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 02:34:25 pm »
0

I almost never buy Talisman. I may have rated it lower than it showed up on the list. I can't remember. Anyway, as far as Workshop variants, it is by far the worse. You can only play it in your buy phase which most of the time means you are skipping a $5 cost for two $4 costs or something. Whereas with any other Workshop variant, you just gain your card, and you are still able to buy a $5 cost or whatever your deck needs.

Now, on a board without any good $5 costs or where you don't want many of them and $4 costs, sure talisman is good, but in general, I would rather just play an IW or Workshop or whatever variant really.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 02:41:46 pm »
+1

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

I don't think how good a card is when you randomly add it to a deck is a good measure of the goodness of a card. You buy Rats when you shouldn't and you definitely play the card from your hand too often. Doesn't make Rats worse than Thief and Spy. Rats has its place, Thief just really doesn't.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.
Thief just never shines. Only some Big Money-type games were people trash down, maybe. Rats actually combos decently with almost all TfB. Not that you want the Rats all the time, but when it shines, it's really good. There is no way Thief, Navigator, Feast and Scout can compete, as they all suffer from the same problem that they never really shine (except for that one game were SCSN bought 10 Navigators).

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 02:54:55 pm »
0

The best use for talisman is for draining two cards at once from a pile for the price of one. Thief is used to shutting down big money taxman doesn't have a good use besides looking at the opponent's hand and a very mild attack. Spy is there to buy when you want something that doesn't hurt your deck that much.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 02:55:23 pm »
+2

I haven't played Adventures yet, but Miser feels more like a Trade Route than like a Pirate Ship.

The same story - you might want to open it if the engine is possible, but adequate trashing is not available.
So first you trash a bit with it and closer to the endgame it might give you some bonuses on top of it.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 05:13:21 pm »
0

I think Miser belongs in the bottom tier.  I've played with Miser a half dozen times now, and I've never seen it pay off.  Every time someone gets one, they end up regretting it.  It's just too slow.  Removing one Copper from your deck with a terminal action is almost always a net downside (Moneylender provides +3 coin and is still merely average).  So you need to use the second ability enough times to make up for the lost value early.  If Miser is worth +3 coins, you'll certainly get a few uses of it, but terminal gold is meh.  You can't get 4 coins from Miser until you've played it at least five times!  And Miser doesn't help to cycle your deck much.  Now, you could dream of buying and using multiple Misers to speed this up, but it's terminal and you need a source of +buy to take advantage of it.  Too much work, not enough upside.
I agree it's terrible (particularly in isolation), but I've seen it work (usually in combination with some kind of Throne variant).  Awful, but not bottom ten material, quite.

Exactly this. In fact, I've lost badly against someone playing Miser+Throneroom. When my engine kicked in, all the Provinces were already gone. I feel Miser is nowhere as bad as Pirate Ship or Taxman. That said, I have it ranked as #55. ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2015, 10:45:22 am »
+2



 Scout ... even on the first rank once.

Fortune Teller .... even once on the first rank.


Duchess ... except one who voted it first!

Ruined Village .... Everyone voted it last except one person who voted it first.

I think someone is trolling the ranking. Qvist, is there a way that you can see who voted these first and see if it's the same person?

Sure there is a way, but it is cumbersome and not worth it IMO. Even if it is the same person, it doesn't matter all that much as the respective cards are on the correct places anyway because there are enough people who voted correctly.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2015, 11:34:04 am »
+2

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2015, 11:34:14 am »
+4

Totally not obsessively refreshing this page for part 2, QVist.  :)

PPE: Good timing!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2015, 11:42:54 am »
+1

How is Walled Village worse than Farming Village? At least Walled Village's ability does something on a dud turn, potentially preventing an entire shuffle from consisting of nothing but dud turns, Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 11:46:48 am »
+1

How is Walled Village worse than Farming Village? At least Walled Village's ability does something on a dud turn, potentially preventing an entire shuffle from consisting of nothing but dud turns, Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2015, 11:49:43 am »
+1

How is Walled Village worse than Farming Village? At least Walled Village's ability does something on a dud turn, potentially preventing an entire shuffle from consisting of nothing but dud turns, Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything ever.

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2015, 12:05:11 pm »
+1

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.

If there's any Estate trashing of any kind, it literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all. If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2015, 12:08:10 pm »
0

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.

If there's any Estate trashing of any kind, it literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all. If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.

It also skips Curses and, later on, Provinces.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2015, 12:10:01 pm »
+1

Sometimes you want to draw a Curse.  So you can trash it.  And if you only have Curses and Victory cards left in your deck, Farming Village doesn't draw anything.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2015, 12:13:27 pm »
+5

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.

If there's any Estate trashing of any kind, it literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all.

This is literally objectively and trivially false. If any single one of the following conditions is in play, the ability does something even though there is Estate trashing:

1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

2. You haven't managed matched your trashing card with your all your Estates yet.

3. Your opponent is playing a cursing attack.

4. You have victory cards in your deck that aren't Estates.

5. It is a Shelters game.

6. Your opponent is playing Ambassador.

7. The Estate trashing that exists is terrible, like nothing but Trade Route. (Somewhat redundant with #1)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 12:14:48 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2015, 12:19:00 pm »
+7

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2015, 12:31:06 pm »
+1

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway
But they're comparing Farming Village to Walled Village. Awaclus is arguing that Walled Village is vanilla Village with a small +, and that Farming Village isn't even that most of the time.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2015, 12:48:10 pm »
0

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway
But they're comparing Farming Village to Walled Village. Awaclus is arguing that Walled Village is vanilla Village with a small +, and that Farming Village isn't even that most of the time.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

Well, it's probably also the most useful Village in Big Money.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 12:56:35 pm »
+6

IMO Rats and armory shouldn't be on the 2nd list. Armory is very good gainer and the reason rats is so low is that too many people don't even know how to play it and when. It has many synergies that appear on many boards:
Elite synergies*: Apprentice, upgrade, forge, scrying pool, butcher, watchtower, salvager.
Other synergies*: raze, develop, remake, bishop, death cart, stonemason, vineyard, governor, graverobber, market square, squire, bonfire, farmland, trader, hermit, JOAT(in massive draw engine), expand.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 01:19:11 pm »
0

1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

Then you probably don't really want the Farming Village either, unless you're playing an alt-VP strategy with terminal gainers, in which case the splitter might actually be nice, but especially in that case, you'd rather have Walled Village.

2. You haven't managed matched your trashing card with your all your Estates yet.

The Farming Village isn't really going to help you do that.

3. Your opponent is playing a cursing attack.

And then you can trash the Curses with whatever card you trashed the Estates with.

4. You have victory cards in your deck that aren't Estates.

Not until the very end of the game, at which point you also have so many non-Victory cards that it still really doesn't do anything.

5. It is a Shelters game.

In which case Farming Village is even worse because it doesn't skip Necropolis.

6. Your opponent is playing Ambassador.

And so are you.

7. The Estate trashing that exists is terrible, like nothing but Trade Route. (Somewhat redundant with #1)

This still applies:
If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

Yeah, sometimes Farming Village might skip a card after you start greening. It still doesn't make any difference whatsoever. When you find Walled Village in a dud hand, its ability might actually avoid multiple other dud hands for you.
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