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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 38493 times)

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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #200 on: November 16, 2015, 07:51:29 pm »
+3

Remake vs. Sea Hag: the classic battle between Good and Evil. Spoiler alert: Evil wins. This one's not even close. Maybe if there's a truly awesome cantrip 3 I'll open Remake here, but that's it.
Is Sea Hag vs. Remake really that bad for the Remake player?Two Remakes should be enough to keep up with the Sea Hag junking while converting some Estate to Silver on the side. The Sea Hag player has the advantage of having more money after playing Sea Hag that when the other player plays Remake, but the Remake player can have a smaller deck.

I guess Sea Hag BM beats Remake BM, but Remake synergizes with a lot more cards than Sea Hag does.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #201 on: November 16, 2015, 10:17:25 pm »
+2

The $4 top 11 is pretty close to my own. I definitely agree with Remake being at #1. Don't really want to get involved with the Sea Hag debate, but my stance is clear enough. To me the most egregious misranking here is probably Quarry. (I can understand Mission/Pilgrimage being too low given how little experience people have) Ironmonger at #3 also seems a little overboard, but not far off from the truth I suppose.

Code: [Select]
1.) Remake   [X]
2.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
3.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
4.) Herald   [X]
5.) Tournament   [X]
6.) Magpie   [X]
7.) Envoy   [X]
8.) Mission   [X]
9.) Ironmonger   [X]
10.) Quarry   [X]
11.) Bridge   [X]
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #202 on: November 16, 2015, 11:10:08 pm »
+1

i'm a fan of mission, maybe now more than the last opportunity to change my rankings. pretty much no other card relies on weird and inconsistent synergies in the same way (maybe rats, chapel), in the sense that, mission lets you very efficiently do all that other weird turn stuff. if you play an ironworks then the turn was worth it; you paid $4 to gain a card costing up to 4. playing a ironworks is often the low end of a mission turn (maybe about half of cards have some effect that does not lead to money or buys) so maybe it is worth top 5. 2016 is gonna be a fun year
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:57:10 pm by schadd »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #203 on: November 17, 2015, 12:54:51 am »
+1

Looking at my rankings, I find myself thinking "what was I thinking?" more often than not. In particular, I put Mining Village, Bishop, and Envoy at 50-48. I have no idea why I did this. Maybe it was a typo or a misclick, given my lack of familiarity with this system. I think that, in the end, I probably should have had Smithy, Militia, and Throne Room higher than I did. But here are the differences I WILL defend:

Mission at 12. Attacks, trashing, and gaining are all very straightforward and useful things you can do on your turn which require no buy of any kind. If you are trying to win an Ambassador war, or are trying to use Travelers, or rip through your enemy with Knights, or are buying mostly Events anyway, or have Horn of Plenty... any one of these things can make Mission a monster. It is "niche" in the same way that Procession is "niche." When it's good, it's insane, and you should always look for ways to exploit it when it's there. When you take the time to look, it's more common than you might think.

Quarry at 8. Before Adventures, this was my favorite card in Dominion. It's a Gold for the cards that engine builders most want to buy, and even more astonishing when multiple buys are involved. Cost Reduction isn't just for a last-turn megaturn: it helps the midgame just as much. Thankfully, I'm not alone on this one.

I had Magpie at #1. Like Ironmonger and Tournament, it is something of a Peddler +. It loses the ability to act as a Peddler under certain circumstances, like when the wrong card is revealed or your opponent has a Province, but it has side-perks to balance it out. And although Ironmonger and Tournament have VERY nice side-perks, Magpie is arguably better than either.

On to Villages. I actually consider Mining Village worse than Walled Village, because I use the bonus from it so rarely. And on the other end, strange as it sounds, I think the best village by FAR is Port. Wandering Minstrel is incredible, but it still can't touch Port.Imagine a card that costs 4 and reads "+1 Card, +3 Actions." That fictional card may sound obscenely strong compared to other villages; enough to render them obsolete. Port is even better than that, because having the extra actions distributed moderately across your deck lines them up better with any terminal draw you have. Although the perks are nice, we get villages first and foremost for actions. Port has the other villages solidly beaten on that front. Any issue it has as a major cog of your engine is that the pile empties so quickly, which is arguably in favor of Port, not against it.

Finally, we all severely underestimated gainers. Like, terribly underestimated them. Gain-and-play shenanigans are just too good to pass up, and they make heavy trashing a little safer because you no longer need as much cash around to build back up. I regard Workshop as a middle-of the road 3 cost. But the 4 cost trashers are something else. I have Armory at 30. If you track your deck, it can give you exactly what your next hand will need exactly when you need it. I have Ironworks at 14. That single extra action does incredible things to gain-and-play tricks. And the final gainer barely plays like a normal "gainer" at all. It doesn't allow you to trash away all of your economy safely like the others, and it doesn't facilitate gain-and-play. Still, I feel little guilt over having Duplicate - yes, Duplicate - at number 3. In a fully functioning engine, Duplicate is almost impossible to describe. Getting an extra copy or four of the best card you buy that turn feels less like playing with a normal gainer and more like playing with a Haggler or a Horn of Plenty. Unlike those cards, however, you can always open with Duplicate. Being able to save it on the Tavern mat until you get the juiciest prize possible is just icing on the cake. I'm calling it here: Duplicate is the most egregiously underrated card in the rankings this year.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #204 on: November 17, 2015, 03:27:51 am »
+1

I'm happy to see that Sea Hag dropped too much, it will make people underestimate it even more. That makes me looking forward to games in which my opponent "gets rid of his curses" with Forge or Count.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #205 on: November 17, 2015, 03:55:37 am »
0

Wow, my top 11 was very close to the actual top 11:

Quote
1.) Remake   [X]
2.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
3.) Ironmonger   [X]
4.) Magpie   [X]
5.) Tournament   [X]
6.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
7.) Young Witch   [X]
8.) Bridge   [X]
9.) Herald   [X]
10.) Militia   [X]
11.) Quarry   [X]

The cards are all the same except with Quarry instead of Sea Hag, and the order is pretty close too.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #206 on: November 17, 2015, 04:24:56 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2015, 07:56:26 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.

Super-Ferry comes with the not so subtle downsides that you have to buy a 4$-copper, and you can use the super-ferry only if you have the 4$-copper in hand.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2015, 08:22:35 am »
0

And on the other end, strange as it sounds, I think the best village by FAR is Port. Wandering Minstrel is incredible, but it still can't touch Port.Imagine a card that costs 4 and reads "+1 Card, +3 Actions." That fictional card may sound obscenely strong compared to other villages; enough to render them obsolete. Port is even better than that, because having the extra actions distributed moderately across your deck lines them up better with any terminal draw you have. Although the perks are nice, we get villages first and foremost for actions. Port has the other villages solidly beaten on that front. Any issue it has as a major cog of your engine is that the pile empties so quickly, which is arguably in favor of Port, not against it.
I think I would rank Worker's Village over the fictional "+1 Card, +3 Actions" village; getting +buy while you add support for more terminals is really useful.  It's a close call, though.  Port is both better and worse than this fictional village.  It's better because of the +action being more distributed throughout your deck and in conjunction with trash-for-benefit.  But Port is worse because it's just a vanilla village for 4 if you gain it without buying it.  In my limited experience with this card, this is a significant downside.  There are a lot of good gainers out there, so that it's rare to have a kingdom without one.  With Port, you really want to commit it to your buy, which leaves you with less flexibility.  On net, I think Port is very similar in value to the fictional "+1 Card, +3 Actions" village, and, therefore Worker's Village.  Wandering Minstrel is even better than these great villages; the sifting and deck arranging is really powerful.

I agree with a lot of your other points.  Quarry deserves to be higher.  Mission deserves to be higher (though perhaps not that high).  Ironworks and Armory should be higher.  I'm not sold on Duplicate being better than Ironworks, let alone top-3 material, but I do need to play with it more before I'm really confident about it.
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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2015, 09:07:27 am »
+1

Time for this thing again. I didn't rank Tournament, and I'll only talk about cards where my ranking was more than 10 spots off from the average. I'll try to group these together, since there are some similarities.

I'll bite! Why didn't you rate tournament?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2015, 09:42:40 am »
+2

Time for this thing again. I didn't rank Tournament, and I'll only talk about cards where my ranking was more than 10 spots off from the average. I'll try to group these together, since there are some similarities.

I'll bite! Why didn't you rate tournament?

I don't like the card so I hardly ever play with it. I don't feel like I can give an accurate ranking.

Same applies with Black Market and Knights.

Like, I've gotten more reps in with the Adventures cards than these ones. It's pathetic, take a look at some of my league/tournament matches where these cards are key. I'm awful.

But I'd rather be awful with these cards than play enough with them to get better with them. Actually Knights aren't really that bad except for Dame Anna...
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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2015, 09:54:11 am »
0

I don't like the card so I hardly ever play with it. I don't feel like I can give an accurate ranking.

good rationale! I put it at number two. I don't much care for it either -- a card that comes with shiny prizes ought to be a trap, but Tournament in 2p isn't blocked frequently enough to be a bad investment, and the "spam Tournament strategy," while rarely ideal, is both utterly obvious and reasonably likely to win against optimal play. But of course those are both arguments for why it's a fantastic card, hence the high rating.

For everyone ranking remake at 1, where would y'all put Steward (still costing 3, but ranked against the 4s)?
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #212 on: November 17, 2015, 10:20:32 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.

Or without +Buy, it's Gold that only works on Actions. Good for hitting 7s, but a Silver instead would have hit $5 most of the time anyway. The thing about Ferry is that it doesn't take up any hand or deck space, so it is good even in the absence of +Buy; Quarry basically requires it to be worth it.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #213 on: November 17, 2015, 10:30:37 am »
+1

I don't like the card so I hardly ever play with it. I don't feel like I can give an accurate ranking.

good rationale! I put it at number two. I don't much care for it either -- a card that comes with shiny prizes ought to be a trap, but Tournament in 2p isn't blocked frequently enough to be a bad investment, and the "spam Tournament strategy," while rarely ideal, is both utterly obvious and reasonably likely to win against optimal play. But of course those are both arguments for why it's a fantastic card, hence the high rating.

For everyone ranking remake at 1, where would y'all put Steward (still costing 3, but ranked against the 4s)?

I did the full card ordering WanderingWinder style, so I can answer this question. I have Remake at #15 overall and Steward at #13 overall, so that means I rank Steward higher than Remake. In between the two is Menagerie. It seems I ranked that above Remake as well, but it's so close at that point.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2015, 10:36:11 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.

Or without +Buy, it's Gold that only works on Actions. Good for hitting 7s, but a Silver instead would have hit $5 most of the time anyway. The thing about Ferry is that it doesn't take up any hand or deck space, so it is good even in the absence of +Buy; Quarry basically requires it to be worth it.

Quarry is almost always good because you almost always want actions. Ferry may not take deck space but it limits what you can buy.
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dominator 123

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2015, 11:46:49 pm »
+2

RIP Sea Hag
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #216 on: November 18, 2015, 12:25:19 am »
+2

RIP Sea Hag

ehh, it will go up in rank next year. The backlash is silly vocal people being silly and influencing people. However, the more I think of it, Remake should be one. I didn't vote it one, but I wish I did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #217 on: November 18, 2015, 03:33:21 am »
+4

RIP Sea Hag

ehh, it will go up in rank next year. The backlash is silly vocal people being silly and influencing people. However, the more I think of it, Remake should be one. I didn't vote it one, but I wish I did.

It's going to go further down when more people realize how mediocre it is.
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