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[AdamH]

What does "moderated discussion" mean? Well unfortunately I don't know right now. There have been a couple of suggestions but it appears that nothing has been agreed upon.

There's an "I don't know" answer if this is an issue for you, feel free to pick it (it's the last one). You may even be moved to make a comment here explaining why (I like this idea, but I don't like this idea, or something along those lines), that would be super-helpful.

Maybe you have a different idea (I would post if it were such-and-such, but otherwise I don't like it, so I answered ABC) or you would just like to clarify your sentiments (moderated discussion is awful in any form because of reasons X and Y) (Seems like a good idea but I don't like any of the methods of moderation that have been suggested so far, so I answered Z): that would be great too.

[Accatitippi]

I chose 5, but as a clarification that means that I probably wouldn't treat it any differently than any other discussion on f.ds. Might read it, might contribute, who knows.

[Kirian]

If there were an option, I'd vote "Meh."

Also, can we ask SMF to please look up the difference between discrete and discreet, and then change the header?  Actually that might be something that could be fixed in the PHP directly.

My phone wanted to change PHP to PCP.  I don't think writing PHP code ever induced hallucinations for me, but perhaps for someone...

[AdamH]

If there were an option, I'd vote "Meh."

How is "Meh." different from option 6?

[mpsprs]

I chose 1, but the caveat there for me is that I wouldn't expect to post more often there than elsewhere, which would mean fairly minimal contributions from me.  But ultimately, I'm here for the dominion strategy, so while I enjoy chuckling at the occasional moat joke, and while I have come to greatly appreciate the wide community here, I like the idea of more focused dominion discussion.  And I'm not sure I buy any of the down sides (worst case scenario in my eyes: basically nobody posts in the "more serious" section, which is really no different from now where nobody posts in it because it doesn't exist).

[Chris is me]

There's no option for "I would read in it and would probably post in it, but I think it's a bad idea."

I think the harm done in splintering the community into two halves based on preferred forum rules would far, far outweigh the benefits of moderated discussion and the end result would actually be even fewer good replies than they are now. You wouldn't be turning joke posts into serious ones by doing this, you'd just be reducing activity, even slightly beyond just the removal of non serious posters.

I also think that discussion would converge eventually to one forum or the other. Either the Serious form wouldn't get used, or every thread on Dominion that isn't "lol post your Scout meme" would end up there, de facto subjecting everyone to these rules that a lot of people don't like if they want to talk about Dominion. It could seriously kill the forum.

[popsofctown]

Ironically, watching AdamH feuding with other users and trying to pull an Aaron Burr in the forums is something I find amusing, and might be the only thing keeping me around.

But yeah I guess it's not a healthy plan for long term growth or anything.

[AdamH]

There's no option for "I would read in it and would probably post in it, but I think it's a bad idea."

Option 7 "I think it's a bad idea" would be the most appropriate for you, then. I see you haven't voted yet, make your voice heard!


I'm going to leave this poll up for another couple of days, but it certainly looks like The Tribe Has Spoken™.  I think I know what I want to do about this, but I don't want to get ahead of myself.

For my own curiosity, and perhaps the curiosity of others (and for no other reason whatsoever), I'd sort of like to know the answer to the following question(s). If you meet the conditions, your response would be appreciated.

If you voted "I think it's a bad idea" AND the ONLY reason you think it's a bad idea is because you believe it will divide the community (or something along those lines), then how would you answer these questions?

A. If, in theory, there was a way to have moderated discussion here without the use of a separate sub-board or something, but rather in separate threads, would that make you happy with moderated discussion on F.DS? You can assume this method works perfectly for this question (the next question deals with if it doesn't).

2. If you answered "yes" to A, does this look anything like a [serious] tag or is it something different? Obviously details of the [serious] tag are not agreed upon, but if a [serious] tag doesn't solve this issue for you, that's what I want to know.

[LastFootnote]

If you voted "I think it's a bad idea" AND the ONLY reason you think it's a bad idea is because you believe it will divide the community (or something along those lines)

Does "it will drive people away from f.DS" count as "something along those lines"?

[mith]

I voted no, primarily because I wouldn't wish the task of trying to moderate a discussion forum for content on anyone.

(I do also think it's a bad idea. This site isn't nearly big enough and doesn't have the community make-up to warrant a heavy-handed approach, and while slippery slope arguments are usually overblown, too many rules about what you can post always - in my experience - leads to an unfortunate amount of argument over where the line is.)

[tripwire]

For my own curiosity, and perhaps the curiosity of others (and for no other reason whatsoever), I'd sort of like to know the answer to the following question(s). If you meet the conditions, your response would be appreciated.

If you voted "I think it's a bad idea" AND the ONLY reason you think it's a bad idea is because you believe it will divide the community (or something along those lines), then how would you answer these questions?

First of all, thanks for the poll. I think this is much more productive than the endlessly repeating arguments f.ds has been having otherwise.

I voted for it being a bad idea. I'm also not a fan of the [serious] tag, or other separate thread solutions, either. I'm less concerned about how any division created by these solutions might affect the community though, than how it might negatively affect the quality of discussion. Attempting to enforce posting behavior within a thread encourages people to make different threads; they may want to talk about the topic but in a different way. Then the discussion gets spread throughout multiple places, making it less productive. As a result, I believe these solutions have more potential for hindering productive strategy discussion than off-topic posts do.

[LastFootnote]

If you voted "I think it's a bad idea" AND the ONLY reason you think it's a bad idea is because you believe it will divide the community (or something along those lines)

Does "it will drive people away from f.DS" count as "something along those lines"?

This was a serious question, by the way. I'm trying to determine whether or not I fall into the category of people you want responses from.

[Kfm]

When I read the question "Would you be interested in some form of moderated discussion on F.DS?", the answer is yes.  I like reading about dominion strategy.  If there were moderated threads about strategy, I would be interested in reading them and possibly posting.   

But overall, I like what we have now.

And so, it does make me nervous when I read Donald X's saying he has had experiences of one or more forums/communities he was a part of ultimately be destroyed by going in this direction.  If that's a real risk at all, I don't want to risk it.

[AdamH]

So it seems people here don't want this to happen. I don't agree with this, I don't think any of the reasons for not even trying it hold any water at all, but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion and my desires are not enough to make them change their minds.

So I'm giving up on this. It's been a completely miserable experience for me trying to make this happen and I don't want that anymore. I had previously said that I would probably stop posting here if this couldn't be a reality, but theory added a really cool ignore feature that has been just great for me so far so I suppose I'll see how things go with it. I will also not be afraid to just peace out of threads that have gone off-topic, I did that a couple of times already today and it didn't feel all that bad.

I'll say thanks again to all of the people who had helpful comments or ideas or who sent me supportive PMs (some who even disagreed with me!) There are still some really good people around here and I think you may be surprised to see that their number of posts and respect is not as high as one might think they would be. Like, seriously, every one of Qvist's posts about the cards lists should be filling up the messages of the week but that's just my opinion. Oh well.

I will do my best to learn what I can from this experience and try to find the right level of involvement in this community. Some of my ideas will be harder to make into a reality now but I'll still probably try them, just not here.

[eHalcyon]

So it seems people here don't want this to happen. I don't agree with this, I don't think any of the reasons for not even trying it hold any water at all, but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion and my desires are not enough to make them change their minds.

That's a really unfair characterization of people who disagree with you.  Just because you don't agree with their concerns doesn't mean they aren't legitimate.

[AdamH]

So it seems people here don't want this to happen. I don't agree with this, I don't think any of the reasons for not even trying it hold any water at all, but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion and my desires are not enough to make them change their minds.

That's a really unfair characterization of people who disagree with you.  Just because you don't agree with their concerns doesn't mean they aren't legitimate.

Just saying what I think, dude. It would be pretty stupid of me to say people can't disagree with me looking at the results of this poll.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Please. I don't want to get into this again.

[mith]

Adam, I think he was referring to this:

but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion

Which is... uh, putting words in everyone else's mouth.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Nobody has to put words into your mouth, the words are right there sitting in your mouth and unfortunately coming out of it as well. According to your post the people who are opposed to your proposal "would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion". So you've insulted those who disagree by casting them as trolls and as people who want to hinder "actual discussions about Dominion".

[yuma]

Adam, I think he was referring to this:

but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion

Which is... uh, putting words in everyone else's mouth.

But what he said is true. There are people who would rather do that. Not all people. Some subset of people. He doesn't say everyone. So if you want to assume that his comment implicates you as an individual then frankly that is your problem. But whatever. Horse, stick, meme.

[AdamH]

This is hilarious. You people, just...

I don't feel the need to continue this conversation. I've stated my opinion and as expected, some people don't like it for various reasons. That's great.

[eHalcyon]

Adam, I think he was referring to this:

but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion

Which is... uh, putting words in everyone else's mouth.

But what he said is true. There are people who would rather do that. Not all people. Some subset of people. He doesn't say everyone. So if you want to assume that his comment implicates you as an individual then frankly that is your problem. But whatever. Horse, stick, meme.

I don't think anybody who disagrees has done so because they want to troll at the expense of discussion.  At the very least, nobody has admitted to it (as far as I know), so saying that even a subset of people are like that is an unfair assumption.  Plenty of people have provided non-trolling reasoning.

For the record, I didn't vote against the proposal.  I didn't vote at all because I feel entirely neutral about it.

[yuma]

Is there a prize for having the last word in this on versatile or something?

How bout I give you an up vote and leave it at that.

[eHalcyon]

Is there a prize for having the last word in this on versatile or something?

How bout I give you an up vote and leave it at that.

I don't know what you mean by this.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Is there a prize for having the last word in this on versatile or something?

How bout I give you an up vote and leave it at that.

I don't know what you mean by this.

He's trying to portray you as unnecessarily argumentative because apparently it's not okay for you to write a post in response to one of his posts.

[XerxesPraelor]

Is there a prize for having the last word in this on versatile or something?

How bout I give you an up vote and leave it at that.

I don't know what you mean by this.

He's trying to portray you as unnecessarily argumentative because apparently it's not okay for you to write a post in response to one of his posts.

Hey, let me be last!

[LastFootnote]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

[Kirian]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

[2.71828.....]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

Lack of yo momma jokes

[popsofctown]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Yeah as the game gets older there's less to say, and more of the remaining skill is nuanced things you can't teach in a post like, "gais try this double Ambassador opening trust me it's good".

That leaves the remainder of Dominion related energy spent on discussing the online implementation, and since AdamH is in a minority group with his opinion on that stuff he's not gonna be having a good time around here.  It's not fun to hold a minority opinion, usually.

[funkdoc]

yea, things are kind of in a lull now because we've gotten a better read on the guilds cards (look at how much they've jumped/fallen in the card rankings this year) and adventures isn't online yet.  i suspect adam will be a happier camper once the latter happens and we have more actual game stuff to talk about again

[Chris is me]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

People perceiving antagonism where it wasn't intended, being upset, then retaliating. Rinse and repeat indefinitely.

One of the principles Wikipedia users to get people to stop fighting about trivial bullshit is an Assume Good Faith policy, and I think that's a good attitude that posters should carry in to this forum too. Treat each other as if everyone is just trying to help and contribute; even if they're not what's the good in being a snarky asshole back to them?

[liopoil]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

People perceiving antagonism where it wasn't intended, being upset, then retaliating. Rinse and repeat indefinitely.

One of the principles Wikipedia users to get people to stop fighting about trivial bullshit is an Assume Good Faith policy, and I think that's a good attitude that posters should carry in to this forum too. Treat each other as if everyone is just trying to help and contribute; even if they're not what's the good in being a snarky asshole back to them?

I don't think Kirian was serious.

[Mic Qsenoch]

That's the true sign that f.DS is on a downward spiral. When folks don't appreciate a good decline of civility reference.

[werothegreat]

That's the true sign that f.DS is on a downward spiral. When folks don't appreciate a good decline of civility reference.

PEOPLE ARE TOO GODDAMN POLITE NOWADAYS

HARRUMPH

[Chris is me]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

People perceiving antagonism where it wasn't intended, being upset, then retaliating. Rinse and repeat indefinitely.

One of the principles Wikipedia users to get people to stop fighting about trivial bullshit is an Assume Good Faith policy, and I think that's a good attitude that posters should carry in to this forum too. Treat each other as if everyone is just trying to help and contribute; even if they're not what's the good in being a snarky asshole back to them?

I don't think Kirian was serious.

I guess that's what I get for assuming good faith

In all seriousness I have no idea what is being referenced.

[LastFootnote]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

People perceiving antagonism where it wasn't intended, being upset, then retaliating. Rinse and repeat indefinitely.

One of the principles Wikipedia users to get people to stop fighting about trivial bullshit is an Assume Good Faith policy, and I think that's a good attitude that posters should carry in to this forum too. Treat each other as if everyone is just trying to help and contribute; even if they're not what's the good in being a snarky asshole back to them?

I don't think Kirian was serious.

I guess that's what I get for assuming good faith

In all seriousness I have no idea what is being referenced.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=64.0

Whoa, that's the 64th thread on f.DS. For reference, this is thread #14214.

EDIT: Wow, I joined this forum one day after it was founded (or the day after theory made his first public post anyhow). I'm not sure I realized that until just now.

EDIT: Huh, looks like michaeljb, Kirian, WanderingWinder, shark_bait, and Geronimoo are also old guard. Man, my memory is awful!

Also I just found out there are new posts on the Dominion Strategy blog! Today is full of new discoveries. Yesterday, too. Did you know that Hobby Japan makes Etrian Odyssey and Nippon Ichi (Disgaea)-themed Dominion sleeves?

[werothegreat]

You know sometimes folks lament that the quality of Dominion-related discussion has gone downhill on f.DS, but I wonder if a large part of that is that, as you get better at the game, less and less of the discussion is useful to you. I mean a newbie can get all sorts of value out of strategy ideas that we old hands take for granted. So those who have been here awhile are getting fewer strategy-enhancing tips per day and perceive it as a degradation of quality.

Sure, but what's causing the decline in civility?!

People perceiving antagonism where it wasn't intended, being upset, then retaliating. Rinse and repeat indefinitely.

One of the principles Wikipedia users to get people to stop fighting about trivial bullshit is an Assume Good Faith policy, and I think that's a good attitude that posters should carry in to this forum too. Treat each other as if everyone is just trying to help and contribute; even if they're not what's the good in being a snarky asshole back to them?

I don't think Kirian was serious.

I guess that's what I get for assuming good faith

In all seriousness I have no idea what is being referenced.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=64.0

Whoa, that's the 64th thread on f.DS. For reference, this is thread #14214.

EDIT: Wow, I joined this forum one day after it was founded (or the day after theory made his first public post anyhow). I'm not sure I realized that until just now.

EDIT: Huh, looks like michaeljb, Kirian, WanderingWinder, shark_bait, and Geronimoo are also old guard. Man, my memory is awful!

Also I just found out there are new posts on the Dominion Strategy blog! Today is full of new discoveries. Yesterday, too. Did you know that Hobby Japan makes Etrian Odyssey and Nippon Ichi (Disgaea)-themed Dominion sleeves?

I know I was posting around the time of that thread, but my posts are limited to 250 pages, so those only go back to November.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe we should have a [civility] tag to indicate only civil discussions in the thread?

[popsofctown]

Maybe we should have a [civility] tag to indicate only civil discussions in the thread?

I'm 100% down for that.

As long as I'm final arbiter on what's civil and what's not.

Minor stipulation, but as I said, I'm 100% down for controlling what people can and can't say when it's clearly for the greater good.

[michaeljb]

Also I just found out there are new posts on the Dominion Strategy blog! Today is full of new discoveries. Yesterday, too.

Wait, there's a blog??

[shark_bait]

EDIT: Huh, looks like michaeljb, Kirian, WanderingWinder, shark_bait, and Geronimoo are also old guard. Man, my memory is awful!

Do I get a special shield?  If anyone has photoshop skills and wants to make a "Bruce the shark carrying the dominion VP shield" image that would be pretty sweet. 

I'll give lots of +1's as motivation.

[eHalcyon]

EDIT: Huh, looks like michaeljb, Kirian, WanderingWinder, shark_bait, and Geronimoo are also old guard. Man, my memory is awful!

Do I get a special shield?  If anyone has photoshop skills and wants to make a "Bruce the shark carrying the dominion VP shield" image that would be pretty sweet. 

I'll give lots of +1's as motivation.

I can't find a good source image for "carrying", but here's Bruce wanting to devour VP.  Luckily, VP aren't fish so they could be food.



Edit: things didn't look quite centered.  They actually still don't, depending on what you're looking at... Bruce's face is not quite symmetrical.

[shark_bait]

I just realized after the fact that my request came on my 1000'd post.  I think I might need to make that my avatar for celebration. 

[nate_w]

So it seems people here don't want this to happen. I don't agree with this, I don't think any of the reasons for not even trying it hold any water at all, but it seems that people would rather be able to troll and make their jokes at the expense of actual discussions about Dominion and my desires are not enough to make them change their minds.

So I'm giving up on this. It's been a completely miserable experience for me trying to make this happen and I don't want that anymore. I had previously said that I would probably stop posting here if this couldn't be a reality, but theory added a really cool ignore feature that has been just great for me so far so I suppose I'll see how things go with it. I will also not be afraid to just peace out of threads that have gone off-topic, I did that a couple of times already today and it didn't feel all that bad.

I'll say thanks again to all of the people who had helpful comments or ideas or who sent me supportive PMs (some who even disagreed with me!) There are still some really good people around here and I think you may be surprised to see that their number of posts and respect is not as high as one might think they would be. Like, seriously, every one of Qvist's posts about the cards lists should be filling up the messages of the week but that's just my opinion. Oh well.

I will do my best to learn what I can from this experience and try to find the right level of involvement in this community. Some of my ideas will be harder to make into a reality now but I'll still probably try them, just not here.

So, not to try to bring this discussion back on topic or anything, and maybe I've missed some of the history of this effort, being a semi-active f.dser, but I think the problem is that you might be longing for a lost halcyon that may not be possible to revive.

I think the peak of this community (before I was involved) was people discovering the game together, exploring it's flavors, testing new ideas. But most of the core of dominion strategy has been pretty hashed out. The last really interesting strategy discussion I remember seeing here was the Haggler purchase you made that many people panned that I was pretty ok with. Think about how that went: there was a sense of "this has already been settled- x is right, y is wrong." 

I think most people here are maybe ok with being past the point of trying to spend lots of time grappling with growing, largely because they have the game pretty figured out or at least figured out enough for them to be happy. And now the forum is a place to enjoy discussing a game that everyone on here enjoys and has as a common point of reference. Of COURSE it's a breeding ground for jokes - there's history and common interest.

I think it's the trade off you get when you have a bunch of experienced players who have discussed this stuff forever.  You can try to get what you want here or just port over to the reddit community which is small and on topic and mostly made up of people who just think wrong things about dominion and how it's played. But they are still growing and interested in developing. Trade offs.

My vote would be go for it man. Who cares if some people aren't interested?  You make a thread. You moderate it. If people end up liking it it will thrive. If people don't it won't. 

[funkdoc]

see, i think there's still a lot more to be explored, but it's real nitty-gritty high-level stuff that maybe even people on here don't care about so much?  the game reports/help subforums lend themselves best to good discussion, i find; i think this community made a mistake focusing so much on card articles for years, as specific boards really bring out the best from us.