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-Stef-

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multiple turns
« on: November 07, 2015, 07:07:36 am »
+3


At first I didn't get it at all, but now maybe I do. I still had to make some assumptions I'm not sure about at all, so I'm writing this post because I'm looking for confirmation.
Links to the wiki for outpost, possession and mission.

1. Extra turns never count towards the tiebraker. They have no influence on who wins on a tied score.
2. When "there are extra turns" they always take precedence over regular turns, and when at some point we run out of extra turns the regular turns continue where they left off.
3. Extra turns are in a collection. Playing an outpost, playing a possession, buying a mission adds an outpost-turn, mission-turn or possessed-turn to the collection.
4. At the end of your cleanup you (or whoever controls your turn at that point) gets to decide what extra turn to take next. However, turns executed by the current player always take precedence over turns executed by the next player.
5. Outpost is a duration. During cleanup of the turn it is played it never gets cleaned up. The outpost card is linked to the 'get your outpost turn' event in the collection of extra turns. In the first cleanup after you've selected to take that extra turn (regardless of whether that succeeds or fails) it actually gets cleaned up.
5b. If I King's Court an Outpost, both the King's Court and the Outpost will be tied to all three of the extra turns (of which at least two will fail to happen). Only when all three of them are out of the collection and another cleanup phase happens they will get cleaned up.
6. The wording on Mission and Outpost on the condition preventing multiple turns is slightly different. For mission, if the previous turn was yours at the moment you buy it, simply nothing happens. There is no mission turn in the collection of extra turns that fails to happen. Outpost does always create the extra-turn but it might fail on execution.
7. As a result of this all, the collection of extra turns will only ever contain entries concerning the player currently playing extra turns and/or the next player. Note that in 3+player games this can be unrelated to the active player
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:23:31 am by -Stef- »
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 08:01:13 am »
0

I always took "after this one" on all these cards to mean "immediately after this one" (point #2), and that there is some sort of a "turn stack" that turns get put onto and removed from in LIFO order. But I notice this is at odds with #4 and would end up causing violations of #7 in some cases.

Recently I played a game online where a player Possessed me and then had me play Possession on the Possession turn. This is generally (and also was in this particular case) due to a misunderstanding of how the card works, so when he was done I clicked End Turn immediately. To my surprise I had just ended my normal turn and was presented with his hand to play the Possession turn on his deck.

So it went:

His Turn (Regular) - Plays Possession
My Turn (Possessed) - Plays Possession, whoops
My Turn (Regular)
His Turn (Possessed)

This is not what I expected, given that a regular turn intervened in between the extra turns. I was expecting the following:

His Turn (Regular) - Plays Possession
My Turn (Possessed) - Plays Possession, whoops
His Turn (Possessed)
My Turn (Regular)

So from this we can conclude that at least in the MF version point #2 is not followed. But more importantly, we can show that #2 and #7 are incompatible (in 3+ player games):

A's Turn (Regular) - Plays Possession
B's Turn (Possessed by A) - Plays Possession, whoops
C's Turn (Possessed by B) - Plays Possession, whoops
A's Turn (Possessed by C) - Note that A is neither the active player nor the next player
B's Turn (Regular)

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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2015, 08:23:15 am »
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...and would end up causing violations of #7 in some cases.
#7 is not a rule, it's one of my assumptions. I just hope it's true.

Recently I played a game online...
Don't take what goko/MF does for granted. It isn't very likely they got this right.

This is not what I expected, given that a regular turn intervened in between the extra turns. I was expecting the following:

His Turn (Regular) - Plays Possession
My Turn (Possessed) - Plays Possession, whoops
His Turn (Possessed)
My Turn (Regular)
I think your expectations are correct here.


So from this we can conclude that at least in the MF version point #2 is not followed. But more importantly, we can show that #2 and #7 are incompatible (in 3+ player games):

A's Turn (Regular) - Plays Possession
B's Turn (Possessed by A) - Plays Possession, whoops
C's Turn (Possessed by B) - Plays Possession, whoops
A's Turn (Possessed by C) - Note that A is neither the active player nor the next player
B's Turn (Regular)
Hmmm my wording on #7 is lousy. I will adjust it from
7. As a result of this all, the collection of extra turns will only ever contain entries concerning the active player and/or the next player.
to
7. As a result of this all, the collection of extra turns will only ever contain entries concerning the player currently playing extra turns and/or the next player. Note that in 3+player games this can be unrelated to the active player
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2015, 09:07:47 am »
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1. Extra turns never count towards the tiebraker. They have no influence on who wins on a tied score.

Right.

2. When "there are extra turns" they always take precedence over regular turns, and when at some point we run out of extra turns the regular turns continue where they left off.

Right.

3. Extra turns are in a collection. Playing an outpost, playing a possession, buying a mission adds an outpost-turn, mission-turn or possessed-turn to the collection.

Kinda hand-wavey, but sure.  What's going on is that when the turn ends, all these extra turns are trying to take place at the same time, thus...

4. At the end of your cleanup you (or whoever controls your turn at that point) gets to decide what extra turn to take next. However, turns executed by the current player always take precedence over turns executed by the next player.

...you have to pick which one you want to have happen.  For decisions between turns, the player who took the last turn makes the decision.  If there were some card, say a Reaction, that gave you an extra turn after your opponent took a turn, your opponent would decide whether your or his extra turn took place first.  Remember - Possession turns are the turns of the Possessed, not the Possessor.  The Possessor is just making decisions.  So my interpretation would be that if you play Possession and Outpost, you decide whether the Possession turn or your Outpost turn takes place first, since they are both trying to happen at the same time, and you took the last turn.  And if you chose the Possession turn to happen first, it would not prevent the Outpost turn from happening, since the extra turn wouldn't be yours!  And then you could make the Outpost turn better by telling your opponent to play Council Rooms or whatever.  [I just realized telling an opponent to gain Lost City on a Possession turn gives you the Lost City and makes them draw the card!  To use immediately!]

Now the neat thing about this is if you've played two Possessions, and you make them play an Outpost on the first P-turn, you decide whether they take the P-turn or the O-turn (both of which will start with 3 cards).  If you choose P-turn, the O-turn never happens, and you're in control, before they take a 5 card normal turn.  If you choose O-turn, they take back control, and now they get to make decisions about which extra turns to do next at the end of that turn.  Then the second P-turn happens (5 cards this time), before finally they get their normal turn.  The better play is to play 2 Possessions, then play Outpost on the second P-turn, so that your opponent starts their normal turn with only 3 cards (since no O-turn can happen).  Also, once Possessed, any Outposts played during the normal turn can't generate any extra turns.

5. Outpost is a duration. During cleanup of the turn it is played it never gets cleaned up. The outpost card is linked to the 'get your outpost turn' event in the collection of extra turns. In the first cleanup after you've selected to take that extra turn (regardless of whether that succeeds or fails) it actually gets cleaned up.

Yep!  If Throned or you play more than one, extras get cleaned up during the next player's clean-up. If you played 2, you only discard one during your O-turn.

5b. If I King's Court an Outpost, both the King's Court and the Outpost will be tied to all three of the extra turns (of which at least two will fail to happen). Only when all three of them are out of the collection and another cleanup phase happens they will get cleaned up.

Yep!  You get one O-turn, and they get discarded during next player's next clean-up.

6. The wording on Mission and Outpost on the condition preventing multiple turns is slightly different. For mission, if the previous turn was yours at the moment you buy it, simply nothing happens. There is no mission turn in the collection of extra turns that fails to happen. Outpost does always create the extra-turn but it might fail on execution.

If you play Outpost and buy a Mission, you generally want to choose the O-turn first; the M-turn's "if" clause was fulfilled during your normal turn (there wasn't one before it) so it's going to happen regardless of how many other extra turns have happened in the meantime.  If you choose M-turn first, the O-turn fails, and Outpost awkwardly hangs out in your play area until next player's next clean-up.

7. As a result of this all, the collection of extra turns will only ever contain entries concerning the player currently playing extra turns and/or the next player. Note that in 3+player games this can be unrelated to the active player

Unless Donald makes that Reaction that lets you take extra turns.  :)

I think KC and TR are not supposed to stay out after playing them on Outpost.

They are, actually.  There's no "if" statement in Outpost's text, just the awkward "can't" clause, so a Throned Outpost is still going to try to throw you an extra turn.  So it stays out (until the next player's clean-up phase, oddly enough, due to how Durations work), and does nothing.  It's mainly because the check on whether Outpost does anything happens after you would have been able to discard it that turn.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 09:44:56 am »
0

So my interpretation would be that if you play Possession and Outpost, you decide whether the Possession turn or your Outpost turn takes place first, since they are both trying to happen at the same time, and you took the last turn. 

Hmm, your interpretation also seems to be a valid one (as in, internally consistent. Obviously they can't both be correct, and I'm somewhat scared we're both wrong).
But it would invalidate my #7. In a 6P game with everyone making everyone play possessions, at some point there could be a couple of extra turns for every player waiting to happen. No need to add scary reactions for that. I don't actually know if it makes things more complex or less.

It would also mean goko/MF screwed up more badly than I imagined. You don't need any of the complicated stuff (3P, throne rooms, missions, multiple copies of a card) but just plain Village-Outpost-Possession and they already get that wrong?


Donald, please help ;)
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 09:56:09 am »
0

Let's see, 4-player Possession:

Possession reads "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one..."

A plays 3 Possessions.
B takes 1 Possession turn, is forced to play 3 Possessions.
A decides whether B takes 2nd P-turn, or whether C takes 1st P-turn.  Chooses C.
C takes P-turn, B forces him to play Possession.
B decides whether to take his 2nd P-turn, C to take his 2nd P-turn, or D to take his 1st P-turn.

Yep, your #7 is incorrect.  Sorry.  :(
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 10:33:08 am »
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I seem to remember Donald saying somewhere that all of the current player's turns happen first.  When multiple things happen at once, you try to resolve them in turn order, and when that fails, then you choose which one happens.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 10:48:24 am »
0

I seem to remember Donald saying somewhere that all of the current player's turns happen first.  When multiple things happen at once, you try to resolve them in turn order, and when that fails, then you choose which one happens.

This sounds familiar.

Let's see, 4-player Possession:

Possession reads "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one..."

A plays 3 Possessions.
B takes 1 Possession turn, is forced to play 3 Possessions.
A decides whether B takes 2nd P-turn, or whether C takes 1st P-turn.  Chooses C.
C takes P-turn, B forces him to play Possession.
B decides whether to take his 2nd P-turn, C to take his 2nd P-turn, or D to take his 1st P-turn.

Yep, your #7 is incorrect.  Sorry.  :(

I think this is why it would not work that way. (2p only example)

Player A plays 3 Possessions. and finishes his turn

(timeline)
A's turn -- {3 B possessed turns pending}

3 things are happening at once and there is no turn order to separate them, so someone decides which one to take (I don't even know which player it is at this point, but w/e they are all the same)

During the first possession turn, A makes B play Possession.

(timeline)
A's turn -- {2 B possessed turns pending} -- B possessed #1 -- {1 A possessed turn pending}

At the end of B's first possessed turn, there is a new possession turn for A waiting to happen, but we are still in the state of deciding what order to do the things that came after A's turn. We can't stop choosing that order and go pick to do something that happens after B's 1st possessed turn.

Disclaimer: I am not Donald and this whole post might be bullshit. I don't know if I am right or not.

Edit: based on comments below, it appears the reason the new Possession turn isn't added into the list of things resolving at the same time isn't due to the difference in when they are occurring as I speculated here, but rather because things happening at the same time first resolve in turn order.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 04:32:15 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Donald X.

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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 02:04:38 pm »
+3

4. At the end of your cleanup you (or whoever controls your turn at that point) gets to decide what extra turn to take next. However, turns executed by the current player always take precedence over turns executed by the next player.
Which turn happens next is determined in-between turns; thus someone Possessing someone no longer applies then. So "(or whoever controls your turn at that point)" is wrong; no-one else controls your turn then. And I hope I haven't said otherwise somewhere.

5b. If I King's Court an Outpost, both the King's Court and the Outpost will be tied to all three of the extra turns (of which at least two will fail to happen). Only when all three of them are out of the collection and another cleanup phase happens they will get cleaned up.
Which may be the clean-up phase of another player's turn. I am just noting this because it's uh noteworthy.

7. As a result of this all, the collection of extra turns will only ever contain entries concerning the player currently playing extra turns and/or the next player. Note that in 3+player games this can be unrelated to the active player
Right, the first player's turns come first, so you never get the 2nd player playing Possession until the first player's turns are done.

Looks good other than the cited bit in #4.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 02:17:21 pm »
0

So if A plays two Possessions, then tells B to play an Outpost, B chooses whether to take the O-turn or the P-turn first?
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 02:21:45 pm »
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And okay.  Revised 4-player Possession game:

A plays 3 Possessions.
A tells B to play 3 Possessions on his P-turn.
There are now five extra turns waiting to happen.  2 of them (B's P-turns) are trying to happen at the same time, while the other 3 (C's P-turns) are required to happen afterwards.  So the next 2 B-P-turns happen first.
Now C takes their first P-turn, and B tells them to play an Outpost.
Now C gets to decide whether to take their O-turn, or their next P-turn.

Yes?
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 02:32:38 pm »
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And okay.  Revised 4-player Possession game:

A plays 3 Possessions.
A tells B to play 3 Possessions on his P-turn.
There are now five extra turns waiting to happen.  2 of them (B's P-turns) are trying to happen at the same time, while the other 3 (C's P-turns) are required to happen afterwards.  So the next 2 B-P-turns happen first.
Now C takes their first P-turn, and B tells them to play an Outpost.
Now C gets to decide whether to take their O-turn, or their next P-turn.

Yes?
If I am reading your shorthand correctly than yes.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2015, 07:09:11 am »
0

4. At the end of your cleanup you (or whoever controls your turn at that point) gets to decide what extra turn to take next. However, turns executed by the current player always take precedence over turns executed by the next player.
Which turn happens next is determined in-between turns; thus someone Possessing someone no longer applies then. So "(or whoever controls your turn at that point)" is wrong; no-one else controls your turn then. And I hope I haven't said otherwise somewhere.

One last thing (famous last words). If no-one controls your turn because the decision isn't part of a turn, who is to make the decision?
I assume this is always the player that will be playing the extra turns that we are currently choosing between?
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2015, 10:45:36 am »
+2

Which turn happens next is determined in-between turns; thus someone Possessing someone no longer applies then. So "(or whoever controls your turn at that point)" is wrong; no-one else controls your turn then. And I hope I haven't said otherwise somewhere.

Actually, if I'm understanding correctly, I think you have...

From here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6917692#6917692
Quote from: Donald X.
So now Y has to take a Possessed turn and an Outpost turn, and which comes first is a decision. Y took the most recent turn, so by my previous ruling we treat the between-turn space as Y's turn. Y was Possessed on that turn, so I am ruling that X makes the decision as to which to do first.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2015, 12:06:36 pm »
+1

Which turn happens next is determined in-between turns; thus someone Possessing someone no longer applies then. So "(or whoever controls your turn at that point)" is wrong; no-one else controls your turn then. And I hope I haven't said otherwise somewhere.

Actually, if I'm understanding correctly, I think you have...

From here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6917692#6917692
Quote from: Donald X.
So now Y has to take a Possessed turn and an Outpost turn, and which comes first is a decision. Y took the most recent turn, so by my previous ruling we treat the between-turn space as Y's turn. Y was Possessed on that turn, so I am ruling that X makes the decision as to which to do first.
I overturn that. Possession does not give you control of any not-that-turn time.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2015, 12:09:56 pm »
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One last thing (famous last words). If no-one controls your turn because the decision isn't part of a turn, who is to make the decision?
I assume this is always the player that will be playing the extra turns that we are currently choosing between?
The general rule is, when two things happen to the same player, that player orders them; otherwise go in turn order starting from the player whose turn it is. The very specific rule for extra turn stuff is, between turns, the most recent player to take a turn goes first. Possession of course causes another player to take a turn, not you.

So when a player has to take a Mission or Outpost turn, they pick which to resolve first. When the game needs to either give a player an Outpost turn, or the player after them a Possessed turn, the Outpost turn comes first.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2015, 09:17:11 am »
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I overturn that. Possession does not give you control of any not-that-turn time.

Oh, time to change the FAQ. A 4.5 year old ruling overturned. Now we all have to play differently. (Well, I don't think I've ever been in the relevant situation yet. It could happen more now that we have Mission though.)

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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2015, 09:44:31 am »
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I overturn that. Possession does not give you control of any not-that-turn time.

Oh, time to change the FAQ. A 4.5 year old ruling overturned. Now we all have to play differently. (Well, I don't think I've ever been in the relevant situation yet. It could happen more now that we have Mission though.)

I can't tell if this is hostile or sarcastic.
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2015, 10:25:11 am »
0

I overturn that. Possession does not give you control of any not-that-turn time.

Oh, time to change the FAQ. A 4.5 year old ruling overturned. Now we all have to play differently. (Well, I don't think I've ever been in the relevant situation yet. It could happen more now that we have Mission though.)

I can't tell if this is hostile or sarcastic.

?? Neither. "Now we all have to play differently," was half-serious. It's true of course - we have to play this scenario differently - but as I acknowledged in the parenthesis, up until now it was probably a very rare scenario. The rest is completely serious. I've had this in my FAQ for 4.5 years, and it's also in other rules documents.

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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2015, 10:31:26 am »
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I overturn that. Possession does not give you control of any not-that-turn time.

Oh, time to change the FAQ. A 4.5 year old ruling overturned. Now we all have to play differently. (Well, I don't think I've ever been in the relevant situation yet. It could happen more now that we have Mission though.)

I can't tell if this is hostile or sarcastic.

?? Neither. "Now we all have to play differently," was half-serious. It's true of course - we have to play this scenario differently - but as I acknowledged in the parenthesis, up until now it was probably a very rare scenario. The rest is completely serious. I've had this in my FAQ for 4.5 years, and it's also in other rules documents.

I guess I hadn't considered the 3rd option, that it was just meant to simply state a fact. It just sounded like you were expressing annoyance at Donald for saying one thing and then saying a different thing 4 years later. But since it's a situation that was (and probably still is) extremely rare, and even when it does occur, which direction you play shouldn't make a big impact on the game anyway, it sounded like you could have been sarcastic, like "oh no, now we all have to change the way we play Dominion forever!"
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Re: multiple turns
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2015, 10:42:11 am »
+3

I guess I hadn't considered the 3rd option, that it was just meant to simply state a fact. It just sounded like you were expressing annoyance at Donald

I see. It was more expressing that it's a pretty unusual thing to happen, rulings by Donald are almost always forever, except when there are obvious reasons (like the Duration tracking rule, Trader/Ironworks, and Band of Misfits). This might have been the first time that a very old ruling was overturned just because Donald changed his mind and had forgotten that he ruled differently way back. So yeah, it's... noteworthy.
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