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[Psyduck]

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

1VP is literally nothing. $1 can be the difference between getting a Mountebank or a Silver.

Hum, I always thought Mountebank costs $5. I agree that 1VP doesn't make much difference very often. But having one Caravan Guard won't do much difference either. I assume you need some more to get a noticeable effect. In that case, you could also have bought some Great Halls, and I think 3-4 VP can make a difference.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

It is a relatively fast trasher. It's non-terminal and cycles 2 cards. That's faster than some even very highly ranked cards such as Masquerade and Forager. It's also incredibly common to overestimate how much of a problem it is that you don't get to see what cards you're trashing before you commit to trashing something; unless you're forced to play it with e.g. Herald, you can just wait until you know for sure that there's a junk card in the top 3 as long as you pay attention to it, and this doesn't even slow you down too much.

Got your point. But often it fails horribly trying to remove the last junk cards from your deck, because you draw them before Lookout and have no way to discard them. So at least it's not as flexible as Forager or even Masquerade.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

If there's a viable engine, Black Market is quite likely the best payload you can possibly get for it. Even if there is already a better payload card in the kingdom, such as Bridge, Black Market is still sometimes worth using in combination with it.

BM enables quite a number of engines that otherwise wouldn't be possible, and all but the most powerful engine is made stronger by the inclusion of Black Market, enabling as it does the mid-turn gaining of exclusive cards.

So you're relying on BM to get some decent payload? What if you don't get the payload you want? Then you've played some turns using a terminal Silver as your payload.

Fwiw, this is my top 10:

Code: [Select]

1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Urchin   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Black Market   [X]
6.) Forager   [X]
7.) Steward   [X]
8.) Amulet   [X]
9.) Menagerie   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
And yes, everything that's alive in me was screaming in agony when I put the card on position four above the one on five.

My list is actually quite similar:

Code: [Select]

1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Fishing Village   [X]
4.) Urchin   [X]
5.) Steward   [X]
6.) Swindler   [X]
7.) Forager   [X]
8.) Hermit   [X]
9.) Amulet   [X]
10.) Gear   [X]

[Awaclus]

Hum, I always thought Mountebank costs $5. I agree that 1VP doesn't make much difference very often. But having one Caravan Guard won't do much difference either. I assume you need some more to get a noticeable effect. In that case, you could also have bought some Great Halls, and I think 3-4 VP can make a difference.

Indeed, Mountebank costs $5. $5 is hard to hit in the early game, an extra +$1 that doesn't cost you a card in your hand is extremely helpful in hitting that $5, and if you fail to hit $5, sometimes there's nothing great at $4. Great Hall doesn't make that sort of a difference, it's something you buy over nothing very late in the game if you happen to get a dead turn. An opening Caravan Guard might actually help you skip Silver altogether if you need that, although it's probably not as good as Wishing Well or Oasis because it's a Duration so it misses the reshuffle more often. If it's easier to think of it this way, the difference between Great Hall and Caravan Guard is somewhat comparable to the difference between Copper and Estate.

Got your point. But often it fails horribly trying to remove the last junk cards from your deck, because you draw them before Lookout and have no way to discard them. So at least it's not as flexible as Forager or even Masquerade.

If you're drawing your deck anyway, there's no need to get rid of your last junk cards. If you're not drawing your deck, well, maybe you didn't manage to have a Lookout in your hand and a junk card in your deck at the same time this turn, but that'll probably happen next turn instead. It is definitely not even close to being as flexible as Forager, but it's not that much less flexible than Masquerade, which also forces you to leave junk cards in your deck so that you can pass them.

So you're relying on BM to get some decent payload? What if you don't get the payload you want? Then you've played some turns using a terminal Silver as your payload.

You will get the payload you want if your opponent ignores Black Market. And usually, there are many options there that can function surprisingly well as payload when you're the only one who has access to them. And it's fine if it's sometimes just a terminal Silver; a terminal Silver is bad, but for $3, a terminal Silver is pretty much the economy boost you expect at that price point so you're not really falling behind in terms of early game economy unless you have too many terminals, and the turns when you actually buy something great from the Black Market deck are totally worth it.


And since we're posting top 10 lists now, here's mint (excluding Adventures):

Code: [Select]

1.) Ambassador   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Urchin   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Fishing Village   [X]
6.) Steward   [X]
7.) Forager   [X]
8.) Menagerie   [X]
9.) Watchtower   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]

[werothegreat]

Why all the hate on Caravan Guard?  You guys all like Fishing Village, right?  And Lighthouse?  I know they do other things, but the coin on your next turn is certainly nice.  Play three CG's and next turn a hand of 5 Coppers gives you a Province.  Sure, that is slower than a Peddler or Oasis, but as soon as someone drops an Attack, particularly an innocuous one like Spy or Fortune Teller, all your CGs in hand (and any you end up drawing along the way) turn into normal Peddlers.  It's the cantrip that does not make you regret having a cantrip in hand when someone plays a handsize attack.

[ehunt]

Why all the hate on Caravan Guard?  You guys all like Fishing Village, right?  And Lighthouse?  I know they do other things, but the coin on your next turn is certainly nice.  Play three CG's and next turn a hand of 5 Coppers gives you a Province.  Sure, that is slower than a Peddler or Oasis, but as soon as someone drops an Attack, particularly an innocuous one like Spy or Fortune Teller, all your CGs in hand (and any you end up drawing along the way) turn into normal Peddlers.  It's the cantrip that does not make you regret having a cantrip in hand when someone plays a handsize attack.

agreed. Caravan Guard, it's hard to rate, it's not a power card, but ignoring its reaction like, in some games I will prefer it to silver, probably in more games, I prefer silver; that's fine, that's true of say Oasis too. The reaction isn't very good but like, there's very little to this card that actively hurts you (the reaction even gets around the cantrip/militia problem).

[funkdoc]

wow i was lower on swindler and higher on forager than yall. not that much in either case but it seems practically universal

all my top five were trashers but i can def see where that would be a tad silly

[Chris is me]

Caravan Guard isn't BAD, on many boards it's a $3 Peddler and I do like how it is safer in the face of Militia / Goons than other cantrips. It's just a pretty slim benefit that's a bit hard to use and hard to justify gaining if it isn't essentially free (Ironworks, etc)

[JacquesTheBard]

I think we're seriously underestimating expedition. In the opening, the larger handsize makes you more likely to see your opening cards before turn 5. In the midgame, when your engine is sputtering and needs a small boost to take off, it blows silver out of the water. The extra two cards on your next turn are comparable to a wharf, and although Expedition will be your draw engine only under the rarest of circumstances, a well-timed expedition buy has done incredible things for me in real-life adventures games. I don't remember my own ranking, but it's entirely possible I have it in the top 10. Only Ferry is a stronger event at that price.

[scott_pilgrim]

wow i was lower on swindler and higher on forager than yall. not that much in either case but it seems practically universal

all my top five were trashers but i can def see where that would be a tad silly

I had Forager at #3 and I think Swindler was 6 or 7.

[werothegreat]

I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...

[Qvist]

I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...

It's still showing for me.

[werothegreat]

I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...

It's still showing for me.

Okay, it seems to have recovered.  Odd.

[ehunt]

When Tunnel came out, the "fill your deck with Gold" aspect was probably a little overrated; I mean, it's good, and it's often worth doing on a board with good discard and no big payload cards, but it's slow, and it's incompatible with other deck-types that are better (e.g. draw-your-deck-and-play-a-bunch-of-Goons).

However, conversely, the "it's 2 points for cheap" aspect was certainly underrated. It can tilt the score so dramatically in your favor when you pick up tunnels early in a cursing-with-slow-trashing game that you either outright win on a 3-pile before your opponent gets a chance to build up a reasonable deck, or threaten that 3-pile so that your opponent can't pick up critical engine pieces.

[Awaclus]

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

[gkrieg13]

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

Yes but how often do you actually hit copper?  It is great when you don't super need to hit $5 and you don't want any money as payload.

[Awaclus]

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

Yes but how often do you actually hit copper?  It is great when you don't super need to hit $5 and you don't want any money as payload.

Whenever you don't hit your second Loan, in many cases. Wanting money as payload doesn't have much to do with Loan's usefulness, since you don't really want the payload in your deck until you're drawing your entire deck anyway.

[Seprix]

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

No.

1. Loan often 'conveniently' skips all of your $5 costs.
2. If you ever use even one Treasure that is not Copper, your Loan will inevitably hit that one Treasure.
3. You have no control over what is trashed.
4. Loan becomes a liability later on, when you need one extra coin, but it triggers a bad shuffle as a result.

Loan is awful. If you have to get it, you have to get it, but that doesn't mean it is good. I'd rather wait until hitting $5 to get JD than just get Loan.

[Awaclus]

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

No.

1. Loan often 'conveniently' skips all of your $5 costs.
2. If you ever use even one Treasure that is not Copper, your Loan will inevitably hit that one Treasure.
3. You have no control over what is trashed.
4. Loan becomes a liability later on, when you need one extra coin, but it triggers a bad shuffle as a result.

Loan is awful. If you have to get it, you have to get it, but that doesn't mean it is good. I'd rather wait until hitting $5 to get JD than just get Loan.

1. It skips Estates more often in the early game, which is when it matters.
2. That's just another reason to avoid buying Treasures other than Loan in the early game. But you can easily get one Silver or another Loan; the odds of hitting it are really low in the early game, which is when it matters.
3. Except it's always a Copper as long as you don't have any other Treasures.
4. It's still better to have than Chapel in that situation.

Loan is really good. I'd say it's up there with Forager and Lookout as far as $3 trashers are concerned (it's more powerful, but it can get slightly inconvenient sooner). If JD and Loan are both on the board, I think you want to get both unless you open 5/2.

[Seprix]

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.

[Awaclus]

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.

I'd buy it over Forager in some cases. I actually just did that today.

I'm aware that I'm challenging conventional wisdom here. I'm doing it for a good reason. It's not easy to see why Loan is as good as it is, because it tends to feel pretty bad when you hit something you don't want to trash, but if you just look at the raw numbers, it's just super good.

[Seprix]

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.

I'd buy it over Forager in some cases. I actually just did that today.

I'm aware that I'm challenging conventional wisdom here. I'm doing it for a good reason. It's not easy to see why Loan is as good as it is, because it tends to feel pretty bad when you hit something you don't want to trash, but if you just look at the raw numbers, it's just super good.

You might be right.

[ThetaSigma12]

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.

He has some good points at least. He's 90%-93% right.

[markusin]

I remember one game where I used Loan with Masquerade in a Cultist game. It was quite effective there I think.

So yeah Loan is good with terminal draw, say like Courtyard.

[Dingan]

I think gkrieg13 put it best: It's great when spiking $5 early isn't important, and you don't want any Treasures (and you don't plan on getting any later).  This is pretty rare, which is maybe why people rank it low, but it happens.

[Limetime]

Awaclus is mostly right.
Loan's only problem is it can't trash estates and it can't trash with nothing in your discard.
Hitting a good treasure basically means you cycled x amount of cards where one is a good treasure.

Forager/loan is better than forager/forager in 90-93% of the time and sometimes loan loan is better than both of those.
Forager trashes one card <- Loan trashes  one treasure
Forager doesn't cycle -> loan cycles at least one card
Forager is more likely to trash a bad card(has to have one in hand) <- loan is less likely to trash a card(Has to hit a bad treasure)
Forager usually gives a net coin of 0  -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1
Forager can be drawn dead-> loan cannot

[mail-mi]

Awaclus is mostly right.
Loan's only problem is it can't trash estates and it can't trash with nothing in your discard.
Hitting a good treasure basically means you cycled x amount of cards where one is a good treasure.

Forager/loan is better than forager/forager in 90-93% of the time and sometimes loan loan is better than both of those.
Forager trashes one card <- Loan trashes  one treasure
Forager doesn't cycle -> loan cycles at least one card
Forager is more likely to trash a bad card(has to have one in hand) <- loan is less likely to trash a card(Has to hit a bad treasure)
Forager usually gives a net coin of 0 to -1 -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1

And once you trash a copper with loan, all your foragers give +.