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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 64303 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2015, 01:10:21 pm »
0

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.

OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm not saying Black Market isn't under-ranked; I don't think I can really put forth an informed opinion there. I do worry that Gear-BM is so good that it's competitive with a lot of engines. I think it's pretty clearly better than Courtyard-BM, and you can get three Gears and still guarantee that they'll never meaningfully collide (when you play one, you can always set aside the other two). I really do wish that Gear had stayed costing $4 and Ranger $3.

I think part of Gear being so low ranked is that people aren't likely to have played Gear BM very much. There's a bias toward engines in high level play for good reason, so it's just never occurred to most players to try Gear BM and have 4 Provinces by Turn 12. People are going to try Gear BM more once Adventures is online - if you're going through all the effort of setting up a physical game of Dominion why would you kill the fun of making an engine by just playing Gear BM?

Gear is also at least situationally useful in engines - if you have Actions to spare you can essentially use it either as a temporary Island or a place to hold engine components to kick start the next turn. It's deceptively simple.

I do think I'm overhyping it a bit certainly but seriously, give Gear a chance.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2015, 01:37:07 pm »
+2

Gear fixes all of Haven's problems.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2015, 01:51:52 pm »
+2

Gear fixes all of Haven's problems.

And introduces new problems.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2015, 02:57:11 pm »
0

My only real diversions on this list are Doctor, Market Square and Wishing Well.
I must say I might have overestimated Wishing Well after playing that one campaign were Scout/Wishing Well actually is good.

Market Square I have way lower (30), as I don't think it's that hot. It's a pretty bad opener, it's cantrip +buy (which is very nice), but I never think it's really amazing. It's a really funny counter versus Swindler though :D

Doctor is one of the faster trashers and I have ranked it twelfth. That might be too high, but I will almost always open Doctor without Chapel or Steward, especially on a 4/3. I might have it a bit high, but I think it's undervalued here.

By the way, what card do you think will be first? Win FABULOUS PRIZES :O (Just kidding, there are no prizes)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2015, 03:08:26 pm »
+1

By the way, what card do you think will be first?

Masquerade, of course.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2015, 03:12:39 pm »
0

By the way, what card do you think will be first?

Masquerade, of course.
I haven't got it there. (Now, my vote doesn't count for much, as this is weighted, but hey) (And I wasn't the one with Fortune Teller on #1, because Fortune Teller sucks)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2015, 03:40:52 pm »
+1

By the way, what card do you think will be first?

Masquerade, of course.
I haven't got it there. (Now, my vote doesn't count for much, as this is weighted, but hey) (And I wasn't the one with Fortune Teller on #1, because Fortune Teller sucks)

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

I have Masquerade/Ambassador/Steward 1/2/3 by the way. Gotta trash those Coppers.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2015, 04:31:48 pm »
0

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2015, 04:46:02 pm »
+1

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2015, 04:49:53 pm »
0

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

I would find this hilarious.  Chancellor 40 spots above masquerade!  I doubt this is what's happening.  But it would be fantastic.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2015, 04:55:58 pm »
+3

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2015, 10:43:52 pm »
0

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.

Is it weighted purely by multiplying by the iso rating (so that someone with a rating of, say, 200 has twice the influence of someone with a rating of 100)?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2015, 11:28:02 pm »
+1

So I'll share the cards I ranked more than 7 ranks away from the norm. Actually, in making this list I found that I had a lot less disagreement than I thought I would on a large scale, so I'm pretty happy about that.

Keep in mind that I didn't rank Black Market, I didn't correct my ranks based on that, but it looks like that didn't matter.

Lookout I ranked 12th, it's 23rd here.

Lookout went way up, and I ranked it even higher. When did we ever think Lookout was actually bad? Lookout is awesome! You trash a card that isn't in your hand and you don't even spend an action! Yes, as much as Lookout "won" with these lists, I still think it's underrated.

Develop I ranked 22nd, it's 37th here.

I might have been a little generous with Develop, but there's no way Develop belongs all the way down there. Yes yes you can do some really broken things with Develop when the stars align and yes it's not all that good otherwise, but its effect of turning Estates into $3 cards and top-decking them is still pretty good, and it will thin Coppers for you. Like, on maybe 50% of boards it's at least as good as Remodel most of the time. Ok that really doesn't mean all that much. Develop is better than this list indicates.

Woodcutter I ranked 25th, it's 41st here.

Umm, wow, how did Woodcutter get that high for me? This is awkward...

Amulet I ranked 29th, it's 10+ here.

Amulet is way, way, way too high on this list. How can anyone think that Amulet is better than Gear? I like Gear where it is for the most part (it was within 7 ranks, I think I had it 9th?) There have been long discussions about Amulet in the past but I'm standing my ground here. Amulet belongs down there with Doctor, not up here with all of these really good cards. You will all soon see the light.

Expedition I ranked 32nd, it's 22nd here

I'm willing to believe I underrated Expedition a little and the general public has overrated it a little. I think the right answer for Expedition is somewhere in the middle here.

Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here

A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?


Anyways, these are all my opinions, and I'm really glad these cards lists are happening again. Qvist put in a lot of work on these and we're getting some really good stuff out of them. <3

EDIT: I guess I'll put in my full rankings here in case anyone cares to criticize any more of my picks.

Code: [Select]
1.) Urchin   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Ambassador   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Fishing Village   [X]
6.) Ferry   [X]
7.) Menagerie   [X]
8.) Forager   [X]
9.) Gear   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
11.) Steward   [X]
12.) Lookout   [X]
13.) Watchtower   [X]
14.) Village   [X]
15.) Market Square   [X]
16.) Dungeon   [X]
17.) Bonfire   [X]
18.) Wishing Well   [X]
19.) Warehouse   [X]
20.) Doctor   [X]
21.) Oracle   [X]
22.) Develop   [X]
23.) Guide   [X]
24.) Scheme   [X]
25.) Woodcutter   [X]
26.) Caravan Guard   [X]
27.) Oasis   [X]
28.) Plan   [X]
29.) Amulet   [X]
30.) Workshop   [X]
31.) Storeroom   [X]
32.) Expedition   [X]
33.) Smugglers   [X]
34.) Great Hall   [X]
35.) Shanty Town   [X]
36.) Loan   [X]
37.) Masterpiece   [X]
38.) Sage   [X]
39.) Tunnel   [X]
40.) Trade Route   [X]
41.) Chancellor   [X]
42.) Fortune Teller   [X]

Wow! We both put Urchin at 1.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2015, 04:31:30 am »
+3

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.

Is it weighted purely by multiplying by the iso rating (so that someone with a rating of, say, 200 has twice the influence of someone with a rating of 100)?

To be exact it is "(iso rating + 5) * vote". I add 5 so that level 0 players have at least a little impact. I know it's not perfect, but it's working out pretty nicely.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2015, 07:39:16 am »
0

Wow! We both put Urchin at 1.

It deeply saddened me to do this, but in over half of games with Urchin, the best opening is double Urchin and the correct strategy is to keep spamming them until they do their thing. The effect must be really good. It also makes me think that the game would be better off without the card :'(
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2015, 08:05:04 am »
+1

and how many of the remaining urchin games just have you open urchin + a better attack instead?

still haven't gotten a baker board with mountebank + urchin...

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2015, 09:03:09 am »
+2

werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2015, 09:14:32 am »
+2

Nooooo Masquerade is better!! :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2015, 09:14:58 am »
0

Why is amulet above bonfire? Their main purpose is to trash cards but bonfire is super-duper fast wich is better than being able to trash estates.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2015, 09:23:15 am »
+5

Why is amulet above bonfire? Their main purpose is to trash cards but bonfire is super-duper fast wich is better than being able to trash estates.

Only being able to trash cards in play is a bigger limitation than it sounds, I think. Estates, Curses and occasionally Ruins are impossible to trash. Amulet's versatility counts for a lot, too. Being able to either trash part of a bad hand or boost a good hand goes a long way.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2015, 09:56:56 am »
+5

Also you only have to pay for Amulet once.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2015, 10:28:19 am »
0

Amulet isn't the tenth best $3, but it's better than Bonfire at trashing. Y'all aren't giving Bonfire enough credit, I mean you can pay for it with the money you trash which kind of offsets the cost. But Amulet is more generally useful.

Pretty much agree with the rest of the top 10. Ferry is super good. Ambassador is slightly better than Masquerade. Urchin is clearly a top 3 card. Etc etc
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2015, 11:11:52 am »
+2

Seems hard to argue with the top 3.  Those cards dominate games in a way that the other 3-cost cards don't.  I went with Masq > Amb > Urchin, but it's pretty debatable in any order.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2015, 11:21:18 am »
0

I voted Ambassador > Masquerade > Menagerie > Urchin > Steward.  Trashing: it's good.

Ambassador/Masquerade is very difficult. I decided it on the basis that now that Adventures is out, shelters are less likely. If you could buy Mercenary for 3, of course that would be the top card on this list. But you can't, and for every deck that adapts to Mercenary perfectly, there's the deck where you don't get it till too late and then you wind up drawing it with stuff you don't want to trash.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2015, 11:31:14 am »
0

yea, from the cards we've seen thus far, i would have chapel and these top three $3s in the overall god-tier of dominion cards.  don't have a clue about adventures tho

now to see how far sea hag drops!
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