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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 64301 times)

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schadd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2015, 10:33:53 pm »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.

Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
my shanty's at 22, i guess i haven't developed a $5 into throne room-grand market enough for it to be more than 34
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2015, 01:15:56 am »
0

I have Doctor quite a bit lower because I'm a real hater here. I have Shanty at 28 (so I'm okay there), Develop at 31 and Tunnel at 38.

Again, any thoughts about Expedition by people who are experienced with Adventures? I have it quite a bit higher. That's a one shot Wharf duration (without the +buy). I guess it's kind of expensive but I think it can still be very, very good.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 01:44:27 am by assemble_me »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2015, 01:46:53 am »
+3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2015, 03:31:08 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2015, 04:29:17 am »
0

Black Market is a big winner. It's over 20pp (!) better and 7 ranks higher, but still not the biggest jump in this list.

Helloooo Urchin! (I'm quite sure, at least). Wait, that would mean Urchin is at least 3rd? Lots of wild guesses incoming.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2015, 06:11:49 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?

Warehouse sifts 3 cards, Dungeon only two. Okay, Dungeon does it two turns in a row, but the effect is still a lot weaker and it tends to miss a lot of shuffles.

They both have their uses, and are pretty similar, but I think I agree with the list that Warehouse is slightly better.

---

I think Village should be a lot higher though. It may look boring, but as the 'vanilla' Village it's also cheaper than most other villages, making it extremely good for any engine. It's not as strong as Fishing Village, of course, but should probably still be around place 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2015, 06:52:12 am »
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It's interesting to still see opinions on cards change. I think the community is getting better at ranking cards as a whole.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2015, 07:07:02 am »
0

Black Market is too high, and Gear is too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2015, 07:11:40 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?

Dungeon really isn't as good as it looks, honestly. It sifts more cards over 2 turns, but only 1 more card total, and +2/-2 is really a lot less benefit than +3/-3. Even though on the second turn you keep a 5 card hand, I think Warehouse is often a better card.

Now Gear at just 14 is a travesty. I didn't finish my $3 list but I'm pretty sure it's in my top 5. If you put it in the bottom 30%, you haven't played enough Adventures.

I think there is a tendency to underrate Villages in general because people perceive them as cards that don't do anything. I know I did. People don't call it a "Village engine", they call it a "Margrave engine" for a reason. But the mid teens is not a horrible place for vanilla Village to be ranked really.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 07:13:13 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2015, 07:42:54 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?

Dungeon really isn't as good as it looks, honestly. It sifts more cards over 2 turns, but only 1 more card total, and +2/-2 is really a lot less benefit than +3/-3. Even though on the second turn you keep a 5 card hand, I think Warehouse is often a better card.

The fact that you have to play it first as duration makes it worse as well. I think you want to play Warehouse after playing other draw reasonably often. The duration part of Dungeon doesn't leave you with that option (unless you have other Duration draw in play)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2015, 08:08:28 am »
+7

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2015, 08:36:12 am »
+1

Nothing too surprising in the third set of rankings.  I ranked Hermit a good deal higher, but I find it very difficult to evaluate.  Madman is crazy good, but one-shot - and you need to forfeit a buy to get it.  Something to note: buying an event is not considered buying a card, so it's easier to work around Hermit's condition in games with events.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2015, 08:42:33 am »
+3

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2015, 08:50:36 am »
+3

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.

OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2015, 08:51:02 am »
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hermit is one of my absolute worst cards, but i think that and black market should definitely be top 10.  madman megaturns just enable way too many crazy strats that would lose to big money without hermit on the board, and black market has such a tiny opportunity cost for what you get.  heck, if a board has no engine or money enablers, i still get black market if it has some of the latter.

i think i had village above warehouse but don't remember exactly

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2015, 08:55:00 am »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.

Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
The problem with a card like Tunnel is: if you're ranking it, are you thinking about all possible games in most of which it's just an Estate+, or about the games in which you can actively use it?
Given all possible kingdoms, there are so so many in which Tunnel isn't really hot...

Hermit I usually consider a Jack with some extra potential when I don't need it anymore. The Madman isn't its strongest aspect, it's just icing on the cake and something fun you can do. But if I open Hermit, trash 3 Estates for 3 useful cards, I'm pretty happy even without gaining Madman.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2015, 10:38:51 am »
+2

So I'll share the cards I ranked more than 7 ranks away from the norm. Actually, in making this list I found that I had a lot less disagreement than I thought I would on a large scale, so I'm pretty happy about that.

Keep in mind that I didn't rank Black Market, I didn't correct my ranks based on that, but it looks like that didn't matter.

Lookout I ranked 12th, it's 23rd here.

Lookout went way up, and I ranked it even higher. When did we ever think Lookout was actually bad? Lookout is awesome! You trash a card that isn't in your hand and you don't even spend an action! Yes, as much as Lookout "won" with these lists, I still think it's underrated.

Develop I ranked 22nd, it's 37th here.

I might have been a little generous with Develop, but there's no way Develop belongs all the way down there. Yes yes you can do some really broken things with Develop when the stars align and yes it's not all that good otherwise, but its effect of turning Estates into $3 cards and top-decking them is still pretty good, and it will thin Coppers for you. Like, on maybe 50% of boards it's at least as good as Remodel most of the time. Ok that really doesn't mean all that much. Develop is better than this list indicates.

Woodcutter I ranked 25th, it's 41st here.

Umm, wow, how did Woodcutter get that high for me? This is awkward...

Amulet I ranked 29th, it's 10+ here.

Amulet is way, way, way too high on this list. How can anyone think that Amulet is better than Gear? I like Gear where it is for the most part (it was within 7 ranks, I think I had it 9th?) There have been long discussions about Amulet in the past but I'm standing my ground here. Amulet belongs down there with Doctor, not up here with all of these really good cards. You will all soon see the light.

Expedition I ranked 32nd, it's 22nd here

I'm willing to believe I underrated Expedition a little and the general public has overrated it a little. I think the right answer for Expedition is somewhere in the middle here.

Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here

A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?


Anyways, these are all my opinions, and I'm really glad these cards lists are happening again. Qvist put in a lot of work on these and we're getting some really good stuff out of them. <3

EDIT: I guess I'll put in my full rankings here in case anyone cares to criticize any more of my picks.

Code: [Select]
1.) Urchin   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Ambassador   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Fishing Village   [X]
6.) Ferry   [X]
7.) Menagerie   [X]
8.) Forager   [X]
9.) Gear   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
11.) Steward   [X]
12.) Lookout   [X]
13.) Watchtower   [X]
14.) Village   [X]
15.) Market Square   [X]
16.) Dungeon   [X]
17.) Bonfire   [X]
18.) Wishing Well   [X]
19.) Warehouse   [X]
20.) Doctor   [X]
21.) Oracle   [X]
22.) Develop   [X]
23.) Guide   [X]
24.) Scheme   [X]
25.) Woodcutter   [X]
26.) Caravan Guard   [X]
27.) Oasis   [X]
28.) Plan   [X]
29.) Amulet   [X]
30.) Workshop   [X]
31.) Storeroom   [X]
32.) Expedition   [X]
33.) Smugglers   [X]
34.) Great Hall   [X]
35.) Shanty Town   [X]
36.) Loan   [X]
37.) Masterpiece   [X]
38.) Sage   [X]
39.) Tunnel   [X]
40.) Trade Route   [X]
41.) Chancellor   [X]
42.) Fortune Teller   [X]
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:46:33 am by AdamH »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2015, 10:46:07 am »
+1

Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing.  Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck.  That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does.  Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2015, 10:48:32 am »
0

Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing.  Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck.  That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does.  Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.

Tunnel is a card that literally does nothing. Great Hall at least doesn't hurt you, like you can play it and it's a cantrip -- that's a lot better than nothing. Also, points are pretty good.

I'm not saying Great Hall is amazing, but it is easy to say it's better than nothing in almost any deck, and it's easy to say it's better than Silver in most decks (Hermit, anyone?). I get Great Halls more often than I get Tunnels or Fortune Tellers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2015, 10:54:52 am »
+1

Oh, certainly Fortune Teller is near the bottom. I'd honestly put FT under Chancellor.  With trashing, FT basically does what Chancellor does, but for your opponent.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2015, 10:57:08 am »
0

Oh, certainly Fortune Teller is near the bottom. I'd honestly put FT under Chancellor.  With trashing, FT basically does what Chancellor does, but for your opponent.

I'd put Fortune Teller under everything LOLOLOL!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2015, 11:28:21 am »
+1

I think I had FT as the worst card.

Tunnel is not exactly a great card, but at least it has the potential to greatly affect the game either through its Gold-gaining ability or its 2 VP (usually the former), even though usually it doesn't do so. Great Hall is just so very slightly useful that it's probably not even significant most of the time when you actually end up buying it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2015, 11:31:51 am »
+1

Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here

A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?

I will freely admit to not considering how great hall gets better with advisor and herald (and I've never played with adventures and their tokens, and didn't ranking them or consider them in ranking other cards).  For me, tunnel ended up higher than great hall largely because it does occasionally work well in the midgame, and in the end game 2vp is 2vp.  I don't think I've ever bought great hall except as a small consolation for a dud turn in the midgame, or as a slightly better estate in the endgame.  Maybe I should get it more.  But I have yet to play a game where at the beginning I have to sit up and say "Hey-great hall is here.  Let me revise the strategy I've been considering."  Tunnel can at least make me pause and think (discard+trash for benefit), even if the strategy is ultimately not that strong.

Of course, I'm splitting hairs here: I ranked great hall last, and tunnel 3rd to last (their effort to be adjacent thwarted only by chancellor).

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2015, 11:45:35 am »
+2

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.

OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm not saying Black Market isn't under-ranked; I don't think I can really put forth an informed opinion there. I do worry that Gear-BM is so good that it's competitive with a lot of engines. I think it's clearly better than Courtyard-BM, and you can get three Gears and still guarantee that they'll never meaningfully collide (when you play one, you can always set aside the other two). I really do wish that Gear had stayed costing $4 and Ranger $3.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 01:41:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2015, 12:24:22 pm »
0

Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing.  Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck.  That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does.  Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.

great hall combos with xroads and is a nice way to trash your hovel. if not for those two facts i would not be uncomfortable ranking it below chancellor.
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