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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 64577 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« on: November 07, 2015, 05:38:30 am »
+16

The Best Cards - Part 1/4

61+ votes for Adventures cards, 98+ votes for the rest.

#43 =0 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 8.5% ▲0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 10.1% / Median: 3.0% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 15.2%

Chancellor stays the worst card in this list while having almost the same average. It has also a pretty low deviation. It was voted last 37 times and 4 times above average.
#42 ▼1 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 14.1% ▼2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 16.6% / Median: 9.8% ▼8.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.1%

Great Hall is one rank worse and has a worse average value. It still has a lead over Chancellor of over 5pp. It was voted last 11 times and 4 times above average.
#41 ▲1 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 15.4% ▲0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 17.6% / Median: 10.5% ▲1.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Woodcutter has basically the same average value, but is one rank higher. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last 8 times and 9 times above 50%.
#40 ▼2 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 16.5% ▼9.2pp / Unweighted Average: 16.6% / Median: 11.9% ▼16.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.2%

Fortune Teller made a big drop of over 9pp and 2 ranks. It has also a pretty low deviation. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking - on the same rank as Great Hall. It was voted last 8 times and 5 times above average, even once on the first rank.
#39 ▼3 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 21.0% ▼10.2pp / Unweighted Average: 25.3% / Median: 19.1% ▼11.2pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1%

Trade Route made an even bigger drop of over 10pp and 3 ranks! It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 12 times above average.
#38 ▼7 Masterpiece (Guilds) Weighted Average: 24.1% ▼14.5pp / Unweighted Average: 26.8% / Median: 21.4% ▼11.9pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3%

And Masterpiece made an even even bigger drop of over 14pp and 7 ranks! It would be still one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last 3 times and 16 times above average.
#37 ▲3 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.9% ▲2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 24.6% / Median: 19.2% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

Develop is slightly better, but climbed 3 ranks. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last 3 times and 13 times above average.
#36 ▼2 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 25.6% ▼7.9pp / Unweighted Average: 29.0% / Median: 24.2% ▼9.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.2%

After losing 5 ranks and 13pp last year, Sage lost again nearly 8pp and 2 ranks. It has the highest deviation in this list so far. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 6 times last and 15 times above average.
#35 ▲2 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 26.4% ▼2.6pp / Unweighted Average: 26.8% / Median: 23.8% ▼0.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1%

Loan is slightly worse than last year, but is still 2 ranks higher. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted 6 times last and 11 times above 50%.
#34 ▲5 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 27.2% ▲2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 27.4% / Median: 23.8% ▲2.6pp / Standard Deviation: 16.6%

Workshop is slightly better than last year, but is now 5 ranks higher! It has a pretty low deviation. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 13 times above average.
#33 Caravan Guard (Adventures) Weighted Average: 29.3% / Unweighted Average: 29.1% / Median: 26.2% / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

Caravan Guard is the first new Adventures card. It was voted last twice and 7 times above average.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 05:38:38 am »
+13

The Best Cards - Part 2/4

#32 ▼7 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 33.5% ▼13.5pp / Unweighted Average: 40.3% / Median: 36.4% ▼18.2pp / Standard Deviation: 22.9%

Tunnel is another big loser in this list. It's over 13pp and 7 ranks worse. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list. It would be still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 13 times above 70%.
#31 Plan (Adventures) Weighted Average: 37.0% / Unweighted Average: 38.2% / Median: 35.7% / Standard Deviation: 22.8%

Plan is the first event in this list. It has almost the same high deviation as Tunnel. It was voted last once and 5 times above 70% with one being on the first rank.
#30 ▲3 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 37.3% ▲4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 38.0% / Median: 33.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.7%

Smugglers has a clearly better average value and is also 3 ranks higher although it has only a small lead of 0.25pp over Plan. It would be still 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 6 times above 70%.
#29 ▲1 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 39.0% ▲0.7pp / Unweighted Average: 40.8% / Median: 42.4% ▲5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

Shanty Town has almost the same average value, but is slightly better and one rank higher. It would be even 3 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 5 times above 70%, once on the first rank.
#28 ▼2 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 40.1% ▼3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 38.8% / Median: 39.4% ▼6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Oasis lost a bit in its average value and also 2 ranks. It would be even 2 more ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 5 times above 70% with one vote being on the first rank.
#27 ▼5 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 40.5% ▼8.9pp / Unweighted Average: 39.5% / Median: 38.1% ▼10.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Oracle is the next big loser: nearly 9pp and 5 ranks worse. It's only 0.4pp better than Oasis. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 6 times above 70%.
#26 ▲1 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 41.2% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 43.6% / Median: 44.7% ▼0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.4%

Storeroom is slightly worse than last year, but is still one rank higher. It would be even one more rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 10 times above 70% with one first rank.
#25 ▲6 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 44.1% ▲7.4pp / Unweighted Average: 40.6% / Median: 39.0% ▼8.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3%

Wishing Well is a big winner: it's over 7pp and 6 ranks better. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 11 times above 70%.
#24 ▼1 Doctor (Guilds) Weighted Average: 44.4% ▼4.4pp / Unweighted Average: 45.4% / Median: 42.4% ▼9.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.5%

Doctor has a worse average value and is also one rank lower. It has only a small lead of 0.24pp over Wishing Well. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 14 times above 70%.
#23 ▲5 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 45.0% ▲3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 43.7% / Median: 45.2% ▲2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 21.4%

Lookout is over 3pp better and 5 ranks higher in comparism to last year. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 10 times above 70%.
#22 Expedition (Adventures) Weighted Average: 47.7% / Unweighted Average: 46.4% / Median: 46.3% / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

Expedition is the second event. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 10 times above 70%.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:07:16 am by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2015, 05:38:44 am »
+15

The Best Cards - Part 3/4

#21 Bonfire (Adventures) Weighted Average: 50.4% / Unweighted Average: 45.7% / Median: 47.6% / Standard Deviation: 25.2%

Bonfire is the second event in a row and the first card above 50%. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It has the highest deviation in this list with 3 votes on the last rank and 19 votes below 30% overall.
#20 ▼2 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.3% ▼6.5pp / Unweighted Average: 54.4% / Median: 54.8% ▼5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Market Square lost over 6pp and 2 ranks. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 14 times below 30%.
#19 =0 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 51.7% ▼0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 52.5% / Median: 55.3% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Village has less than 1pp difference and is also the first card since Chancellor that stayed on the same rank. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 12 times below 30%.
#18 Dungeon (Adventures) Weighted Average: 53.5% / Unweighted Average: 55.0% / Median: 59.5% / Standard Deviation: 22.3%

And here is the next Adventures card. It was voted 11 times below 30%.
#17 ▼1 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.9% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 55.5% / Median: 59.5% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6%

Scheme lost a bit in its average value and one rank too. It has a small lead over Dungeon of 0.42pp. It was voted last once and 11 times below 30%.
#16 Guide (Adventures) Weighted Average: 56.0% / Unweighted Average: 56.9% / Median: 57.9% / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

Guide is the next new card in this list. It was voted only 7 times below 30%.
#15 ▼2 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 59.3% ▼5.7pp / Unweighted Average: 60.3% / Median: 61.9% ▼7.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Warehouse is nearly 6pp and 2 ranks worse. It was voted below 30% 9 times and even on the first rank once.
#14 Gear (Adventures) Weighted Average: 63.7% / Unweighted Average: 63.6% / Median: 69.1% / Standard Deviation: 20.7%

And Gear is the third Adventures card in the last 5 ranks. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 6 times below 30%.
#13 ▲7 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 66.4% ▲21.1pp / Unweighted Average: 61.8% / Median: 68.3% ▲25.9pp / Standard Deviation: 24.8%

Black Market is a big winner. It's over 20pp (!) better and 7 ranks higher, but still not the biggest jump in this list. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It has the second highest deviation in this list with being voted last once and 13 times below 30%.
#12 ▼1 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 69.5% ▲1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 66.8% / Median: 71.4% ▲1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6%

Hermit is slightly better, but still lost one rank. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 5 times below 30%.
#11 ▼1 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 69.6% ▼2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 69.8% / Median: 70.7 ▼2.0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.5%

Watchtower lost 2pp and one rank. It has only a small lead of 0.08pp over Hermit. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It has a pretty low deviation with only 3 votes below 30% and 2 first ranks on the other hand.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 01:46:30 am by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2015, 05:39:03 am »
+14

The Best Cards - Part 4/4

#10 Amulet (Adventures) Weighted Average: 71.1% / Unweighted Average: 66.7% / Median: 73.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.6%

Amulet is the second best new Adventures card. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the third highest deviation in this list. It was voted last once and 13 times below average.
#9 ▼2 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 78.1% ▼1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 75.7% / Median: 83.3% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 16.0%

Menagerie is only slightly worse, but still lost 2 ranks. It has a big lead over Amulet of 7pp. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted last once, 8 times below average and on the first rank twice.
#8 Ferry (Adventures) Weighted Average: 79.8% / Unweighted Average: 77.2% / Median: 83.3% / Standard Deviation: 23.2%

Ferry is the best new Adventures card. It has the third highest deviation in this list with 9 votes below average on one side and 7 votes on the first rank on the other side.
#7 =0 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 80.1% ▲3.4pp / Unweighted Average: 78.5% / Median: 83.3% ▲4.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Forager has a better average value, but still stayed on the same rank. It has a small lead over Ferry of 0.31pp. It was voted last once, 8 times below 50% and 5 times on the first rank.
#6 ▼1 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 81.0% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 78.7% / Median: 83.3% ▼1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 16.0%

Swindler basically didn't change at all, but still lost one rank. It was voted 6 times below average and on the first rank once.
#5 ▼2 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 85.3% ▼0.5pp / Unweighted Average: 85.2% / Median: 88.1% ▲0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 12.7%

Fishing Village basically didn't change as well, but even lost 2 ranks. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has the second lowest deviation in this list as it was only voted below average twice and on the first rank 5 times.
#4 =0 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 86.3% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 84.0% / Median: 88.1% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 14.7%

Steward is better than last year, but stayed on the same rank. It has the third lowest deviation in this list. It was voted below average 3 times and on the first rank twice.
#3 ▲8 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 86.4% ▲26.1pp / Unweighted Average: 81.2% / Median: 86.8% ▲26.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9%

Urchin is THE big winner this year: 8 ranks higher and over 26pp better, wow! It would be still 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 7 times below average and 8 times on the first rank.
#2 ▼1 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 91.9% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 90.6% / Median: 97.0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.5%

After being a close first rank last year, Masquerade is back being second. It was voted below average 4 times and 34 times on the first rank.
#1 ▲1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 94.2% ▲0.6pp / Unweighted Average: 92.2% / Median: 97.0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.6%

Ambassador is the old new #1. It has also the lowest deviation in this list. It was voted below average 3 times and 31 times on the first rank (less than Masquerade).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:02:46 am by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 06:00:39 am »
+5

Develop is criminally underrated. It should not be in the bottom quarter.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 08:28:06 am »
+2

Why is loan higher than trade route and develop
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 08:32:51 am »
+2

Why is loan higher than trade route and develop

Because it's a better card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 08:33:37 am »
0

I also think Loan is better than Trade Route. No idea why develop is so far at the bottom, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 08:45:05 am »
+2

I think Chancellor is still in last place at this point out of pure momentum - people put her there as automatically as they put Chapel and King's Court in first place of their respective lists.  Poor Angela here is easily better than both Great Hall and Woodcutter, methinks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 08:47:30 am »
+2

I think Chancellor is still in last place at this point out of pure momentum - people put her there as automatically as they put Chapel and King's Court in first place of their respective lists.  Poor Angela here is easily better than both Great Hall and Woodcutter, methinks.

I think if +Buy wasn't so scarce, I'd put Chancellor over Woodcutter, but more often do I find myself going "oh shit I need a Woodcutter" than I go "well I have a spare action so I should get a Chancellor".

Really, they shouldn't even be different cards - adding a +Buy to Chancellor makes it a reasonable $3, if still not that good.

Caravan Guard is pretty bad, it could probably fall a few places.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 08:54:10 am »
+4

Develop is near the bottom because it is hard to utilize. The more skill you have, the more you can utilize it, and the higher you would probably rate it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 08:55:20 am by DG »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 09:11:53 am »
+3

Develop is near the bottom because it is hard to utilize. The more skill you have, the more you can utilize it, and the higher you would probably rate it.

I think this is a big part of it.  Develop was fairly low for me (though not bottom quarter) as a compromise between how good the card is for me (i.e. not very-I have no idea when and how to use it) and how good it is for the truly elite players.

On that note, someone should tell me how and when to use develop!

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 10:50:59 am »
+2

The big surprises here for me are:
Masterpiece, Develop, and Loan so low.
Sage, Oasis, and Bonfire so high.

Masterpiece: So, you're playing big money or a Duke/Silk Road rush.  You have 7 coins (or 8+ coins early, or 5-6 coins in a Duke/Silk Road rush).  What to do...?  Overbuy Masterpiece and be very happy!  It's a pretty limited card, but when Silver is what you want, Masterpiece hits the spot.
Develop: Tricky to use, for sure.  It has a lot of potential in the right kingdom and in tandem with limited gainers (often Silver/Gold gainers).  Even at its worst (well, ignoring Poor House), it's a decent Estate trasher.  Top-decking the gained card(s) can be a big tempo advantage.
Loan: In treasure-less decks, it's like a Junk Dealer that can only trash Coppers.  Junk Dealer is amazing, and so is Loan - in decks where you don't plan to buy or gain additional treasures.  Loan becomes frustrating the moment you add a single treasure you don't want to trash, but it can still have some value if you plan to add treasures late.  I find that treasure-less decks are more and more common as expansions are added, so I look more fondly on Loan.

Sage: Maybe I don't know the right time to get this card, but I've been disappointed every time I've bought it.  Sure, you can find your other opening buy easier.  So it sounds like it might be good with something like Sea Hag or Young Witch, but you really need economy with those cards.  Maybe it's decent with Militia or Cutpurse?  I dunno.  Later in the game (especially with trashing) it approaches a cantrip.  Once you start greening, the filtering is much worse than Farming Village.  And you don't want multiples of Sage.  It's SO low-impact.  It's the Pearl Diver of three coin cards, in my mind.
Oasis: This is a pretty lackluster card.  Sure, if you have only one or two and haven't trashed heavily, it's as good as a Peddler (and better in unusual circumstances).  But Peddler is a card I want to have a bunch of.  I don't get excited about one or two.  Caravan Guard is bad, but Oasis is worse, IMO.
Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit.  You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins.  But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck.  I'm not impressed.  Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)?  I guess you can trash Ruins, too.  Meh.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 10:52:56 am by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 10:59:59 am »
+4

Really, they shouldn't even be different cards - adding a +Buy to Chancellor makes it a reasonable $3, if still not that good.
said Donald, then he thought, "Wait, I already have Chancellor and Woodcutter at $3, so to keep it from being strictly better than them, let's bump it to $4 and throw in an interesting on-buy ability or something."
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 11:17:34 am »
+7

Really, they shouldn't even be different cards - adding a +Buy to Chancellor makes it a reasonable $3, if still not that good.
said Donald, then he thought, "Wait, I already have Chancellor and Woodcutter at $3, so to keep it from being strictly better than them, let's bump it to $4 and throw in an interesting on-buy ability or something."

That is exactly the opposite of what happened.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 03:09:49 pm »
+2

Develop is near the bottom because it is hard to utilize. The more skill you have, the more you can utilize it, and the higher you would probably rate it.

I think this is a big part of it.  Develop was fairly low for me (though not bottom quarter) as a compromise between how good the card is for me (i.e. not very-I have no idea when and how to use it) and how good it is for the truly elite players.

On that note, someone should tell me how and when to use develop!

A long time ago, I was watching a Dominion stream and MicQ was in the chat. I asked if he could do a cage match on Develop. He said that unfortunately he had no idea how to play Develop.

A longer time ago, I played a game with Develop, where I spent a minute trying to figure out the right Develop play. I gave up because I didn't want to time out. Two minutes into my opponent's turn, I figured out the play I should have done, or at least one that was strictly better to what I did that turn.

Develop is hard.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2015, 04:13:59 pm »
+2

Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit.  You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins.  But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck.  I'm not impressed.  Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)?  I guess you can trash Ruins, too.  Meh.

Well, I don't know. If you have 4 Coppers and a Steward in hand, do you trash two Coppers and buy nothing? Usually you do. Bonfire is the same thing, only without first having to buy Steward. Being able to trash on T1/T2 is pretty big as well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2015, 04:45:14 pm »
0

Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit.  You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins.  But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck.  I'm not impressed.  Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)?  I guess you can trash Ruins, too.  Meh.

Well, I don't know. If you have 4 Coppers and a Steward in hand, do you trash two Coppers and buy nothing? Usually you do. Bonfire is the same thing, only without first having to buy Steward. Being able to trash on T1/T2 is pretty big as well.
I often begrudgingly trash the Coppers with Stewart in that situation.  But it's a bad beat.  I'd rather have an Estate or two to trash.  Or, a 2-cost card worth buying.  Or, a powerful 6-cost card worth buying.  And I know that, with Stewart, I will have an opportunity to remove my pure trash (Estates) soon.  If I use Bonfire early, I'm reducing the purchasing power of my deck.  I would only do so if I had another good way to trash my Estates.  Even in the rare situations where I would consider Bonfire, I'm not thrilled about it; its impact is low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 04:52:23 pm »
0

Develop is criminally underrated. It should not be in the bottom quarter.

So I agree in principle...but in practice, I think almost everybody finds it a very difficult card. I have heard Mic Q stream where he confesses *he* doesn't think he plays the card very well. But if I had been forced to guess, you would have been exactly the person who would find Develop way under-rated, given what I have observed about your style of play (in addition to the quality of play).

No pressure, but anything in particular you can share here?  :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 05:55:51 pm »
+4

Man, remember when these rankings started, and Develop was the worst-ranked $3 card by a mile? How times change.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2015, 07:46:27 pm »
+1

Bonfire: Limited copper-trashing with no benefit.  You want to use this early in the game, otherwise you're likely to have treasures you don't want to trash and/or more than 3 coins.  But you really need more cards early in the game to improve the quality of your deck.  I'm not impressed.  Maybe Bonfire is more valuable when paired with a decent Estate trasher that also gains non-treasures (Remodel, Transmogrify, Develop)?  I guess you can trash Ruins, too.  Meh.
Bonfire is a complete speed thrasher. It is kind of like mine, except it trashes two cards instead of about 5. You can also get rid of early game utilities.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 07:49:25 pm by Limetime »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2015, 08:01:17 pm »
+3

Bonfire is a complete speed thrasher. It is kind of like mine, except it trashes two cards instead of about 5. You can also get rid of early game utilities.

Not sure if intentional...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2015, 08:12:17 pm »
0

Bonfire is pretty strong actually
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 08:33:18 pm »
0

I suppose I don't value Mint very highly, either.  And Bonfire is a good deal weaker.  Of course, it's certainly possible that I am undervaluing Bonfire.  If so, I look forward to losing a game due to competent use of Bonfire.  If there aren't any good 5+ cost cards, I would look favorably towards opening Bonfire + Remodel (or similar).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 08:46:54 pm »
+1

I didn't vote Fortune Teller first!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2015, 08:55:04 pm »
0

After playing develop, the net increase in the total value of all cards in your deck is equal to the cost of the card you trashed (trash a , gain a and ; -4 + 8). This means that you get the most value out of develop by trashing the highest possible priced cards that will give you a return on both ends.  However, the more valuable the card you trash with develop, the greater cost the play has to your current turn. That, along with the inflexibility of gaining, is the reason I think that develop is difficult to use.

I ranked it on #29. Looking back, if I re-ranked right now I would probably rank it on #23.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 09:05:03 pm »
0

Sage: Maybe I don't know the right time to get this card, but I've been disappointed every time I've bought it.  Sure, you can find your other opening buy easier.  So it sounds like it might be good with something like Sea Hag or Young Witch, but you really need economy with those cards.  Maybe it's decent with Militia or Cutpurse?  I dunno.  Later in the game (especially with trashing) it approaches a cantrip.  Once you start greening, the filtering is much worse than Farming Village.  And you don't want multiples of Sage.  It's SO low-impact.  It's the Pearl Diver of three coin cards, in my mind.
Oasis: This is a pretty lackluster card.  Sure, if you have only one or two and haven't trashed heavily, it's as good as a Peddler (and better in unusual circumstances).  But Peddler is a card I want to have a bunch of.  I don't get excited about one or two.  Caravan Guard is bad, but Oasis is worse, IMO.

You need some economy with Sea Hag and Young Witch, but you don't need it immediately if you can get cycling instead. It's also good with Potion. Later in the game, it doesn't do much, but at least it doesn't really hurt your deck either, which sometimes makes it the best $3 card you can buy. And the filtering is worse than Farming Village only if you have the kind of deck that doesn't really even need the filtering in the first place (i.e. no junk); Farming Village is THIS close to literally being just a $4 vanilla Village.

Oasis is pretty good because it helps you hit $5 in the early game and unlike Silver, it won't be a stop card in the late game.

Also, Masterpiece isn't bad, it has its uses and it can be pretty powerful sometimes, but there aren't all that many $3 cards that are worse than it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2015, 12:02:47 am »
0

Cards gained with Develop go on top of your deck. Just throwing that out there because it's something you might forget until you actually play the card. It's a pretty big bonus and helps you line up cards you need in hand together next turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2015, 01:22:53 am »
0

There are many cards that are often meh, but can be quite good given the right circumstances.
Develop is such a card, but I think it's a bit underrated in general.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2015, 01:42:02 am »
+1

I recently got to develop an Expand into a Fairgrounds and a Province and then survivorsed them away, in a game where I eventually won by one point. Is that the best case use or what?

I feel like I should give it more credit, but I really can't imagine it doing that or anything around the same quality reasonably. (it's also pretty bad at trashing coppers)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2015, 04:15:21 am »
0

I think Chancellor is still in last place at this point out of pure momentum - people put her there as automatically as they put Chapel and King's Court in first place of their respective lists.  Poor Angela here is easily better than both Great Hall and Woodcutter, methinks.

I disagree. Chancellor is just weak, as it has always been. Its benefit is way too incremental and its opportunity cost way too high. I voted neither Chapel nor Kings Court first, by the way.

The only card that may be weaker is Caravan Guard, which is being criminally overrated (I voted it second-to-last). But that may be the novelty factor.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2015, 06:07:53 am »
+2

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2015, 08:22:06 am »
0

Lots of swings.

People are finally realizing that Golds aren't all that great. Glad to see Tunnel drop. Sad to see Oracle drop as it is a solid card. And, Wishing Well finally going up. Also, Workshop going up sounds right. It's gain is pretty solid. So, is Smugglers, but in the non-mirror match it can not be so hot.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2015, 08:26:14 am »
0

Bonfire is a complete speed thrasher. It is kind of like mine, except it trashes two cards instead of about 5. You can also get rid of early game utilities.

Not sure if intentional...
It was
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2015, 08:59:29 am »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

Doctor worse than Lookout??? Doctor is WAY safer than Lookout, and more useful.

Storeroom is better than people give it credit for, particularly in Gardens or Silk Road games (or Tunnel games!), but I see why it's not super popular.

Bonfire is better than all of these cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2015, 09:07:45 am »
+1

Woah...Wait what?

Shanty Town?? Garbage? It's a fantastic card to open with.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2015, 09:13:26 am »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

Doctor worse than Lookout??? Doctor is WAY safer than Lookout, and more useful.

Storeroom is better than people give it credit for, particularly in Gardens or Silk Road games (or Tunnel games!), but I see why it's not super popular.

Bonfire is better than all of these cards.

Doctor is worse than lookout when you can track your deck well enough because lookout is nonterminal and will often do a similar thing to doctor. Obviously if you can somehow afford a big overpay and get all your junk into the discard at the same time, doctor is much better in that case. But using terminal space on trashing after the early game sucks.

But they are right next to each other in the rankings, so it doesn't say much about either card's power in relation to each other.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2015, 09:44:45 am »
+1

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2015, 09:57:36 am »
0

I guess I just have really poor luck with Shanty Town. I never feel like there's a good time to buy it, other than when heavy draw is available and it's the only Village. It's a Necropolis when you need a Village and sometimes a Lost City, but only when you're not likely to use the 2 Actions anyway. It's the best Village when you don't need a Village and one of the worst when you do. I dunno. I recognize Tunnel's pretty weak in these post-Gold times we live in, especially since Market Square is a lot better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2015, 10:21:02 am »
0

More surprises for me:
Plan, Smugglers, and Doctor so low.
Expedition and Scheme so high.

Plan: This is baffling for me, especially since Bonfire is so much higher.  When building an engine, you often want 5+ copies of at least one card - preferably ASAP.  Getting a trashing effect whenever you buy a copy is great!  You can count on getting rid of all of your starting Estates and 2+ Coppers with an early plan.  Plan is at its best when you can open with it on a 3/4 with a great 4-cost card (like Tournament, Ironmonger, Advisor, Herald, Conspirator, or the Village variants).  It's much better than Bonfire in this case (-2 Coppers vs. -1 Estate with additional trashing just a buy away).  Anti-synergizes with gainers, though.
Smugglers: In an engine mirror, this card is just too good to pass up.  Gaining 5-6 cost cards from Smugglers and purchasing another piece during your buy phase is super powerful.  If your opponent tries to play around it, then it works a little like an attack.  This is one of my favorite gainers; I might take it over (or in addition to) Ironworks.
Doctor: The on-play effect is pretty strong (especially with Spy-effects).  I believe it's the only card that can trash more than 1 card from outside of the hand/play.  The overbuy effect can be very powerful, especially with a 5/2 opening, or an early 6-7 coins on turn 3.

Expedition: Is countered HARD by handsize attacks.  Otherwise, decent lategame if you have an unlucky turn and there are no good 3- cost cards.  Situational and low-impact.
Scheme: A solid card, but low impact.  Scheme rarely contributes substantially to my strategy, it just adds a little bit of reliability at the expense of deck cycling.

Addition: In Tunnel's defense, it is still 2VP for 3 coins.  So, even ignoring the Gold-gaining (which is situationally good), it can be an important element in maximizing VP in the endgame.  11 coins is enough for 8 VP.  6 coins is enough for 4 VP.  With 8 coins and two Provinces in the pile, you can opt for Duchy+Tunnel for 5 VP.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 10:28:22 am by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2015, 11:39:17 am »
+2

Scheme adds more than just a little bit of reliability, especially when Throne Room or Kings Court is involved. And it allows for playing an early key action more than once in a row, which is often huge.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2015, 12:46:54 pm »
0

Scheme adds more than just a little bit of reliability, especially when Throne Room or Kings Court is involved. And it allows for playing an early key action more than once in a row, which is often huge.

Yeah, I think "Scheme is low impact" is the biggest understatement of this thread, really. It can be absolutely critical to getting early attacks off, heavy trashing early, and general reliability of an engine. Some games it does relatively little, but other games it's completely essential.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2015, 12:47:43 pm »
0

There really aren't a lot of terrible 3s. I was surprised to see Chancellor at the bottom, thinking, there has to be some card that's worse, but then I checked my own rankings, and indeed Chancellor was at the bottom (I used duel mode and I guess I didn't check my 3s list by hand afterwards). Chancellor is the only absolute dud 3 and even he's not Transmute/Scout class -- he fits in the Stash combo, he's better than Silver when there's no other terminal action on the board, he has little tricks with Hunting Party, there's the Chancellor/Potion open on a Familiar board, etc.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2015, 01:08:16 pm »
0

Yeah, I think "Scheme is low impact" is the biggest understatement of this thread, really. It can be absolutely critical to getting early attacks off, heavy trashing early, and general reliability of an engine. Some games it does relatively little, but other games it's completely essential.
Perhaps this is a learning moment for me.  When would you open with Scheme?
Scheme + Militia/Cutpurse/Marauder seems pretty strong.
Scheme + Remake/Spice Merchant should be good.
Scheme + Sea Hag/Young Witch seems to fall into the same trap as Sage + junker.  Maybe it's a good opening if there aren't any great 5+ cost cards.
Would you ever open Scheme + Ambassador/Steward/Swindler/Hermit instead of the double opening?
Should Scheme be opened with a non-terminal?  Scheme + Tournament/Ironmonger, perhaps?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2015, 03:03:54 pm »
0

I didn't vote Shanty Town first!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2015, 03:22:52 pm »
+1

Scheme + Sea Hag/Young Witch seems to fall into the same trap as Sage + junker.  Maybe it's a good opening if there aren't any great 5+ cost cards.
non-terminal?  Scheme + Tournament/Ironmonger, perhaps?
I don't think it falls into the same trap as Sage+junker because you can keep topdecking Scheme until you play your junker and unlike Sage it doesn't fizzle if it's in the same hand as the junker. Also Scheme doesn't get worse as the game goes on like Sage does.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2015, 03:34:32 pm »
0

Lookout should be higher. I've actually been liking Lookout a lot recently. It's not flashy, but the filtering + cycling makes it better than it looks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2015, 04:43:52 pm »
0

Scheme + Sea Hag/Young Witch seems to fall into the same trap as Sage + junker.  Maybe it's a good opening if there aren't any great 5+ cost cards.
non-terminal?  Scheme + Tournament/Ironmonger, perhaps?
I don't think it falls into the same trap as Sage+junker because you can keep topdecking Scheme until you play your junker and unlike Sage it doesn't fizzle if it's in the same hand as the junker. Also Scheme doesn't get worse as the game goes on like Sage does.
Right.  Scheme is better than Sage.  But the similarity is, if you open with them + junker, you're giving up on 5+ coin hands in turns 3 and 4.  Which, on most boards, seems unwise.  But I can see it being the best play on some boards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2015, 04:48:39 pm »
0

yea, there was a recent game stef played on stream, i think vs. rabid, where both players opened lookout on a pretty generic duchy/duke board.  that really got me thinking about it, and i've started experimenting with it more in non-engine games.  the early cycling & estate trashing is probably a big enough deal to outweigh it being a dead card in the mid-late game.

re: scheme: don't forget about baker openings!  mountebank/scheme is fantastic, soothsayer is another obvious one, and i'd go for it with witch as well (less sure about cultist and the $5 smithy variants).  i think i like ambassador/scheme in a shelters game, not such a big fan of double amb in those.

but the value of scheme goes well beyond openings: it's often a key player in making engines work when there's no trashing.  adam streamed a game vs. ela where he went for smithy-BM and she went for the base game village/smithy engine with no trashing or +buy or attacks (wait, maybe militia?); ela won handily, as workshop & scheme allowed her to build quickly and start every turn with tons of villages & smithies.  without scheme (or workshop, of course), the engine wouldn't have had a hope in hell there.  this tends to apply to a lot of golem games as well, or any board where you can potentially play multiple goons but have to deal with a lot of junk to get there.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 05:02:09 pm by funkdoc »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2015, 04:51:04 pm »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.

Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2015, 10:33:53 pm »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.

Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
my shanty's at 22, i guess i haven't developed a $5 into throne room-grand market enough for it to be more than 34
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2015, 01:15:56 am »
0

I have Doctor quite a bit lower because I'm a real hater here. I have Shanty at 28 (so I'm okay there), Develop at 31 and Tunnel at 38.

Again, any thoughts about Expedition by people who are experienced with Adventures? I have it quite a bit higher. That's a one shot Wharf duration (without the +buy). I guess it's kind of expensive but I think it can still be very, very good.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 01:44:27 am by assemble_me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2015, 01:46:53 am »
+3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2015, 03:31:08 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2015, 04:29:17 am »
0

Black Market is a big winner. It's over 20pp (!) better and 7 ranks higher, but still not the biggest jump in this list.

Helloooo Urchin! (I'm quite sure, at least). Wait, that would mean Urchin is at least 3rd? Lots of wild guesses incoming.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2015, 06:11:49 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?

Warehouse sifts 3 cards, Dungeon only two. Okay, Dungeon does it two turns in a row, but the effect is still a lot weaker and it tends to miss a lot of shuffles.

They both have their uses, and are pretty similar, but I think I agree with the list that Warehouse is slightly better.

---

I think Village should be a lot higher though. It may look boring, but as the 'vanilla' Village it's also cheaper than most other villages, making it extremely good for any engine. It's not as strong as Fishing Village, of course, but should probably still be around place 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2015, 06:52:12 am »
0

It's interesting to still see opinions on cards change. I think the community is getting better at ranking cards as a whole.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2015, 07:07:02 am »
0

Black Market is too high, and Gear is too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2015, 07:11:40 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?

Dungeon really isn't as good as it looks, honestly. It sifts more cards over 2 turns, but only 1 more card total, and +2/-2 is really a lot less benefit than +3/-3. Even though on the second turn you keep a 5 card hand, I think Warehouse is often a better card.

Now Gear at just 14 is a travesty. I didn't finish my $3 list but I'm pretty sure it's in my top 5. If you put it in the bottom 30%, you haven't played enough Adventures.

I think there is a tendency to underrate Villages in general because people perceive them as cards that don't do anything. I know I did. People don't call it a "Village engine", they call it a "Margrave engine" for a reason. But the mid teens is not a horrible place for vanilla Village to be ranked really.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 07:13:13 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2015, 07:42:54 am »
0

I get the feeling that Guide is overrated here. Also, why is Dungeon not higher than Warehouse?

Dungeon really isn't as good as it looks, honestly. It sifts more cards over 2 turns, but only 1 more card total, and +2/-2 is really a lot less benefit than +3/-3. Even though on the second turn you keep a 5 card hand, I think Warehouse is often a better card.

The fact that you have to play it first as duration makes it worse as well. I think you want to play Warehouse after playing other draw reasonably often. The duration part of Dungeon doesn't leave you with that option (unless you have other Duration draw in play)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2015, 08:08:28 am »
+7

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2015, 08:36:12 am »
+1

Nothing too surprising in the third set of rankings.  I ranked Hermit a good deal higher, but I find it very difficult to evaluate.  Madman is crazy good, but one-shot - and you need to forfeit a buy to get it.  Something to note: buying an event is not considered buying a card, so it's easier to work around Hermit's condition in games with events.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2015, 08:42:33 am »
+3

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2015, 08:50:36 am »
+3

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.

OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2015, 08:51:02 am »
0

hermit is one of my absolute worst cards, but i think that and black market should definitely be top 10.  madman megaturns just enable way too many crazy strats that would lose to big money without hermit on the board, and black market has such a tiny opportunity cost for what you get.  heck, if a board has no engine or money enablers, i still get black market if it has some of the latter.

i think i had village above warehouse but don't remember exactly

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2015, 08:55:00 am »
0

Poor Tunnel. It's not that good, but... worse than Shanty Town? Really? Shanty Town is garbage.

I have Shanty Town on 23 and Tunnel on 41 out of 43. The aforementioned Develop takes place 21.

Lol, I have Tunnel on 41 and Develop at 21,too. Shanty Town at 24, tough
The problem with a card like Tunnel is: if you're ranking it, are you thinking about all possible games in most of which it's just an Estate+, or about the games in which you can actively use it?
Given all possible kingdoms, there are so so many in which Tunnel isn't really hot...

Hermit I usually consider a Jack with some extra potential when I don't need it anymore. The Madman isn't its strongest aspect, it's just icing on the cake and something fun you can do. But if I open Hermit, trash 3 Estates for 3 useful cards, I'm pretty happy even without gaining Madman.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2015, 10:38:51 am »
+2

So I'll share the cards I ranked more than 7 ranks away from the norm. Actually, in making this list I found that I had a lot less disagreement than I thought I would on a large scale, so I'm pretty happy about that.

Keep in mind that I didn't rank Black Market, I didn't correct my ranks based on that, but it looks like that didn't matter.

Lookout I ranked 12th, it's 23rd here.

Lookout went way up, and I ranked it even higher. When did we ever think Lookout was actually bad? Lookout is awesome! You trash a card that isn't in your hand and you don't even spend an action! Yes, as much as Lookout "won" with these lists, I still think it's underrated.

Develop I ranked 22nd, it's 37th here.

I might have been a little generous with Develop, but there's no way Develop belongs all the way down there. Yes yes you can do some really broken things with Develop when the stars align and yes it's not all that good otherwise, but its effect of turning Estates into $3 cards and top-decking them is still pretty good, and it will thin Coppers for you. Like, on maybe 50% of boards it's at least as good as Remodel most of the time. Ok that really doesn't mean all that much. Develop is better than this list indicates.

Woodcutter I ranked 25th, it's 41st here.

Umm, wow, how did Woodcutter get that high for me? This is awkward...

Amulet I ranked 29th, it's 10+ here.

Amulet is way, way, way too high on this list. How can anyone think that Amulet is better than Gear? I like Gear where it is for the most part (it was within 7 ranks, I think I had it 9th?) There have been long discussions about Amulet in the past but I'm standing my ground here. Amulet belongs down there with Doctor, not up here with all of these really good cards. You will all soon see the light.

Expedition I ranked 32nd, it's 22nd here

I'm willing to believe I underrated Expedition a little and the general public has overrated it a little. I think the right answer for Expedition is somewhere in the middle here.

Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here

A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?


Anyways, these are all my opinions, and I'm really glad these cards lists are happening again. Qvist put in a lot of work on these and we're getting some really good stuff out of them. <3

EDIT: I guess I'll put in my full rankings here in case anyone cares to criticize any more of my picks.

Code: [Select]
1.) Urchin   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Ambassador   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Fishing Village   [X]
6.) Ferry   [X]
7.) Menagerie   [X]
8.) Forager   [X]
9.) Gear   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
11.) Steward   [X]
12.) Lookout   [X]
13.) Watchtower   [X]
14.) Village   [X]
15.) Market Square   [X]
16.) Dungeon   [X]
17.) Bonfire   [X]
18.) Wishing Well   [X]
19.) Warehouse   [X]
20.) Doctor   [X]
21.) Oracle   [X]
22.) Develop   [X]
23.) Guide   [X]
24.) Scheme   [X]
25.) Woodcutter   [X]
26.) Caravan Guard   [X]
27.) Oasis   [X]
28.) Plan   [X]
29.) Amulet   [X]
30.) Workshop   [X]
31.) Storeroom   [X]
32.) Expedition   [X]
33.) Smugglers   [X]
34.) Great Hall   [X]
35.) Shanty Town   [X]
36.) Loan   [X]
37.) Masterpiece   [X]
38.) Sage   [X]
39.) Tunnel   [X]
40.) Trade Route   [X]
41.) Chancellor   [X]
42.) Fortune Teller   [X]
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:46:33 am by AdamH »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2015, 10:46:07 am »
+1

Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing.  Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck.  That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does.  Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2015, 10:48:32 am »
0

Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing.  Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck.  That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does.  Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.

Tunnel is a card that literally does nothing. Great Hall at least doesn't hurt you, like you can play it and it's a cantrip -- that's a lot better than nothing. Also, points are pretty good.

I'm not saying Great Hall is amazing, but it is easy to say it's better than nothing in almost any deck, and it's easy to say it's better than Silver in most decks (Hermit, anyone?). I get Great Halls more often than I get Tunnels or Fortune Tellers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2015, 10:54:52 am »
+1

Oh, certainly Fortune Teller is near the bottom. I'd honestly put FT under Chancellor.  With trashing, FT basically does what Chancellor does, but for your opponent.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2015, 10:57:08 am »
0

Oh, certainly Fortune Teller is near the bottom. I'd honestly put FT under Chancellor.  With trashing, FT basically does what Chancellor does, but for your opponent.

I'd put Fortune Teller under everything LOLOLOL!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2015, 11:28:21 am »
+1

I think I had FT as the worst card.

Tunnel is not exactly a great card, but at least it has the potential to greatly affect the game either through its Gold-gaining ability or its 2 VP (usually the former), even though usually it doesn't do so. Great Hall is just so very slightly useful that it's probably not even significant most of the time when you actually end up buying it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2015, 11:31:51 am »
+1

Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here

A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?

I will freely admit to not considering how great hall gets better with advisor and herald (and I've never played with adventures and their tokens, and didn't ranking them or consider them in ranking other cards).  For me, tunnel ended up higher than great hall largely because it does occasionally work well in the midgame, and in the end game 2vp is 2vp.  I don't think I've ever bought great hall except as a small consolation for a dud turn in the midgame, or as a slightly better estate in the endgame.  Maybe I should get it more.  But I have yet to play a game where at the beginning I have to sit up and say "Hey-great hall is here.  Let me revise the strategy I've been considering."  Tunnel can at least make me pause and think (discard+trash for benefit), even if the strategy is ultimately not that strong.

Of course, I'm splitting hairs here: I ranked great hall last, and tunnel 3rd to last (their effort to be adjacent thwarted only by chancellor).

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2015, 11:45:35 am »
+2

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.

OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm not saying Black Market isn't under-ranked; I don't think I can really put forth an informed opinion there. I do worry that Gear-BM is so good that it's competitive with a lot of engines. I think it's clearly better than Courtyard-BM, and you can get three Gears and still guarantee that they'll never meaningfully collide (when you play one, you can always set aside the other two). I really do wish that Gear had stayed costing $4 and Ranger $3.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 01:41:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2015, 12:24:22 pm »
0

Great Hall is the card that literally does nothing.  Even Pearl Diver looks at the bottom of your deck.  That's not to say I'll never pick up Great Halls, but it certainly does not affect the board in the way Tunnel does.  Tunnel is rather low on here, I feel.

great hall combos with xroads and is a nice way to trash your hovel. if not for those two facts i would not be uncomfortable ranking it below chancellor.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2015, 01:10:21 pm »
0

Black Market is too low, Gear is too high

I know you're being flippant, but Gear seriously is under-ranked.

I'm not being flippant, though admittedly I took the chance to make a parody post; I do honestly think the hype for Gear is overstated. It's a middle of the pack $3 option that looks like it is accomplishing more than it is most of the time. That's not to say it's a bad card (far from it) but I believe I ranked it in the 20s and stand by that. I am perfectly willing to accept how wrong I am when we have real data from competitive games to draw on, but well, things are how they are.

OTOH Black Market fundamentally changes the game and makes engines possible where nothing was there frequently. It takes a skill to play well, and sure sometimes it's less good than others, but the net results are more extreme than saving a few cards for next turn or being a Moat. In my ranking methodology this puts it a few tiers above Gear. The fact they are right next to each other in the rankings is what I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm not saying Black Market isn't under-ranked; I don't think I can really put forth an informed opinion there. I do worry that Gear-BM is so good that it's competitive with a lot of engines. I think it's pretty clearly better than Courtyard-BM, and you can get three Gears and still guarantee that they'll never meaningfully collide (when you play one, you can always set aside the other two). I really do wish that Gear had stayed costing $4 and Ranger $3.

I think part of Gear being so low ranked is that people aren't likely to have played Gear BM very much. There's a bias toward engines in high level play for good reason, so it's just never occurred to most players to try Gear BM and have 4 Provinces by Turn 12. People are going to try Gear BM more once Adventures is online - if you're going through all the effort of setting up a physical game of Dominion why would you kill the fun of making an engine by just playing Gear BM?

Gear is also at least situationally useful in engines - if you have Actions to spare you can essentially use it either as a temporary Island or a place to hold engine components to kick start the next turn. It's deceptively simple.

I do think I'm overhyping it a bit certainly but seriously, give Gear a chance.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2015, 01:37:07 pm »
+2

Gear fixes all of Haven's problems.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2015, 01:51:52 pm »
+2

Gear fixes all of Haven's problems.

And introduces new problems.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2015, 02:57:11 pm »
0

My only real diversions on this list are Doctor, Market Square and Wishing Well.
I must say I might have overestimated Wishing Well after playing that one campaign were Scout/Wishing Well actually is good.

Market Square I have way lower (30), as I don't think it's that hot. It's a pretty bad opener, it's cantrip +buy (which is very nice), but I never think it's really amazing. It's a really funny counter versus Swindler though :D

Doctor is one of the faster trashers and I have ranked it twelfth. That might be too high, but I will almost always open Doctor without Chapel or Steward, especially on a 4/3. I might have it a bit high, but I think it's undervalued here.

By the way, what card do you think will be first? Win FABULOUS PRIZES :O (Just kidding, there are no prizes)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2015, 03:08:26 pm »
+1

By the way, what card do you think will be first?

Masquerade, of course.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2015, 03:12:39 pm »
0

By the way, what card do you think will be first?

Masquerade, of course.
I haven't got it there. (Now, my vote doesn't count for much, as this is weighted, but hey) (And I wasn't the one with Fortune Teller on #1, because Fortune Teller sucks)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2015, 03:40:52 pm »
+1

By the way, what card do you think will be first?

Masquerade, of course.
I haven't got it there. (Now, my vote doesn't count for much, as this is weighted, but hey) (And I wasn't the one with Fortune Teller on #1, because Fortune Teller sucks)

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

I have Masquerade/Ambassador/Steward 1/2/3 by the way. Gotta trash those Coppers.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2015, 04:31:48 pm »
0

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2015, 04:46:02 pm »
+1

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2015, 04:49:53 pm »
0

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

I would find this hilarious.  Chancellor 40 spots above masquerade!  I doubt this is what's happening.  But it would be fantastic.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2015, 04:55:58 pm »
+3

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2015, 10:43:52 pm »
0

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.

Is it weighted purely by multiplying by the iso rating (so that someone with a rating of, say, 200 has twice the influence of someone with a rating of 100)?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2015, 11:28:02 pm »
+1

So I'll share the cards I ranked more than 7 ranks away from the norm. Actually, in making this list I found that I had a lot less disagreement than I thought I would on a large scale, so I'm pretty happy about that.

Keep in mind that I didn't rank Black Market, I didn't correct my ranks based on that, but it looks like that didn't matter.

Lookout I ranked 12th, it's 23rd here.

Lookout went way up, and I ranked it even higher. When did we ever think Lookout was actually bad? Lookout is awesome! You trash a card that isn't in your hand and you don't even spend an action! Yes, as much as Lookout "won" with these lists, I still think it's underrated.

Develop I ranked 22nd, it's 37th here.

I might have been a little generous with Develop, but there's no way Develop belongs all the way down there. Yes yes you can do some really broken things with Develop when the stars align and yes it's not all that good otherwise, but its effect of turning Estates into $3 cards and top-decking them is still pretty good, and it will thin Coppers for you. Like, on maybe 50% of boards it's at least as good as Remodel most of the time. Ok that really doesn't mean all that much. Develop is better than this list indicates.

Woodcutter I ranked 25th, it's 41st here.

Umm, wow, how did Woodcutter get that high for me? This is awkward...

Amulet I ranked 29th, it's 10+ here.

Amulet is way, way, way too high on this list. How can anyone think that Amulet is better than Gear? I like Gear where it is for the most part (it was within 7 ranks, I think I had it 9th?) There have been long discussions about Amulet in the past but I'm standing my ground here. Amulet belongs down there with Doctor, not up here with all of these really good cards. You will all soon see the light.

Expedition I ranked 32nd, it's 22nd here

I'm willing to believe I underrated Expedition a little and the general public has overrated it a little. I think the right answer for Expedition is somewhere in the middle here.

Great hall I ranked 34th, it's 42nd here

A very small difference, but wow, how can people put Great Hall below some of these cards? Tunnel? Better than Great Hall? No way man. Most of these cards have such a high opportunity cost, and Great Hall is at least a cantrip. Cantrips got a lot better IMO with the last two expansions: Advisor, Herald, any token card, they all love cantrips. Why the hate here?


Anyways, these are all my opinions, and I'm really glad these cards lists are happening again. Qvist put in a lot of work on these and we're getting some really good stuff out of them. <3

EDIT: I guess I'll put in my full rankings here in case anyone cares to criticize any more of my picks.

Code: [Select]
1.) Urchin   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Ambassador   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Fishing Village   [X]
6.) Ferry   [X]
7.) Menagerie   [X]
8.) Forager   [X]
9.) Gear   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
11.) Steward   [X]
12.) Lookout   [X]
13.) Watchtower   [X]
14.) Village   [X]
15.) Market Square   [X]
16.) Dungeon   [X]
17.) Bonfire   [X]
18.) Wishing Well   [X]
19.) Warehouse   [X]
20.) Doctor   [X]
21.) Oracle   [X]
22.) Develop   [X]
23.) Guide   [X]
24.) Scheme   [X]
25.) Woodcutter   [X]
26.) Caravan Guard   [X]
27.) Oasis   [X]
28.) Plan   [X]
29.) Amulet   [X]
30.) Workshop   [X]
31.) Storeroom   [X]
32.) Expedition   [X]
33.) Smugglers   [X]
34.) Great Hall   [X]
35.) Shanty Town   [X]
36.) Loan   [X]
37.) Masterpiece   [X]
38.) Sage   [X]
39.) Tunnel   [X]
40.) Trade Route   [X]
41.) Chancellor   [X]
42.) Fortune Teller   [X]

Wow! We both put Urchin at 1.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2015, 04:31:30 am »
+3

I've seen the term weighted used in these rankings and I'm unsure exactly what it means. I guess each person's ranking is assigned a weight based on some metric, but what is it? Iso rating? Games played?

Iso rating

Wait, my iso rating is actually negative (with a grand total of 8 games played) since I exclusively play bots. It doesn't bother me that my lists doesn't matter a fly's fart, but if you are using a weighted mean by the absolute iso ratings then my list is being considered upside down! ;D (or is it?)

No, if you have a negative level, I assume a level of 0.

Is it weighted purely by multiplying by the iso rating (so that someone with a rating of, say, 200 has twice the influence of someone with a rating of 100)?

To be exact it is "(iso rating + 5) * vote". I add 5 so that level 0 players have at least a little impact. I know it's not perfect, but it's working out pretty nicely.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2015, 07:39:16 am »
0

Wow! We both put Urchin at 1.

It deeply saddened me to do this, but in over half of games with Urchin, the best opening is double Urchin and the correct strategy is to keep spamming them until they do their thing. The effect must be really good. It also makes me think that the game would be better off without the card :'(
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2015, 08:05:04 am »
+1

and how many of the remaining urchin games just have you open urchin + a better attack instead?

still haven't gotten a baker board with mountebank + urchin...

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2015, 09:03:09 am »
+2

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2015, 09:14:32 am »
+2

Nooooo Masquerade is better!! :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2015, 09:14:58 am »
0

Why is amulet above bonfire? Their main purpose is to trash cards but bonfire is super-duper fast wich is better than being able to trash estates.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2015, 09:23:15 am »
+5

Why is amulet above bonfire? Their main purpose is to trash cards but bonfire is super-duper fast wich is better than being able to trash estates.

Only being able to trash cards in play is a bigger limitation than it sounds, I think. Estates, Curses and occasionally Ruins are impossible to trash. Amulet's versatility counts for a lot, too. Being able to either trash part of a bad hand or boost a good hand goes a long way.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2015, 09:56:56 am »
+5

Also you only have to pay for Amulet once.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2015, 10:28:19 am »
0

Amulet isn't the tenth best $3, but it's better than Bonfire at trashing. Y'all aren't giving Bonfire enough credit, I mean you can pay for it with the money you trash which kind of offsets the cost. But Amulet is more generally useful.

Pretty much agree with the rest of the top 10. Ferry is super good. Ambassador is slightly better than Masquerade. Urchin is clearly a top 3 card. Etc etc
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2015, 11:11:52 am »
+2

Seems hard to argue with the top 3.  Those cards dominate games in a way that the other 3-cost cards don't.  I went with Masq > Amb > Urchin, but it's pretty debatable in any order.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2015, 11:21:18 am »
0

I voted Ambassador > Masquerade > Menagerie > Urchin > Steward.  Trashing: it's good.

Ambassador/Masquerade is very difficult. I decided it on the basis that now that Adventures is out, shelters are less likely. If you could buy Mercenary for 3, of course that would be the top card on this list. But you can't, and for every deck that adapts to Mercenary perfectly, there's the deck where you don't get it till too late and then you wind up drawing it with stuff you don't want to trash.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2015, 11:31:14 am »
0

yea, from the cards we've seen thus far, i would have chapel and these top three $3s in the overall god-tier of dominion cards.  don't have a clue about adventures tho

now to see how far sea hag drops!

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2015, 11:37:42 am »
0

I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.

Urchin itself is a weak attack and a cantrip, nothing too special. If you ever buy it, it's because you want a Mercenary, a card that looks ridiculous at first glance - trash 2 cards, +$2, +2 cards, AND a Militia to boot. However, best case scenario, if your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you can only start using Mercenary after the second shuffle. If they don't collide, you need to wait ANOTHER shuffle AND probably need to invest in another relatively useless Urchin. By that time, you should have been busy trashing with an early-game trasher if available, or just building in general.

Then when you finally have the (admittedly) very strong Mercenary, you can start abusing it, right? True, but you will likely run out of Mercenary food quickly, especially if you decide to go for more than one. And if you can't trash two cards, all of the other abilities will stop working as well... so you either have to sacrifice good cards, buy a lot of Copper (and get lucky enough to make it line up with the Mercenary), or stop using the Mercenary altogether.

So all in all, Mercenary is very powerful, but there are a lot of factors that balance it out. In my opinion Urchin is nowhere near the leagues of Ambassador or Masquerade.

--

Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2015, 11:47:31 am »
+3

I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.

Urchin itself is a weak attack and a cantrip, nothing too special. If you ever buy it, it's because you want a Mercenary, a card that looks ridiculous at first glance - trash 2 cards, +$2, +2 cards, AND a Militia to boot. However, best case scenario, if your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you can only start using Mercenary after the second shuffle. If they don't collide, you need to wait ANOTHER shuffle AND probably need to invest in another relatively useless Urchin. By that time, you should have been busy trashing with an early-game trasher if available, or just building in general.

In the best case scenario where your two opening Urchins collide on T3/T4, you still need to invest in another Urchin to get the second Mercenary as soon as possible.

Quote
Then when you finally have the (admittedly) very strong Mercenary, you can start abusing it, right? True, but you will likely run out of Mercenary food quickly, especially if you decide to go for more than one. And if you can't trash two cards, all of the other abilities will stop working as well... so you either have to sacrifice good cards, buy a lot of Copper (and get lucky enough to make it line up with the Mercenary), or stop using the Mercenary altogether.

Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2015, 11:54:44 am »
+5

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2015, 11:58:43 am »
0

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2015, 12:09:21 pm »
+2

Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.
Not necessarily.  Steward is significantly better in engines.  Amulet misses a lot more shuffles, so the trashing and coin from Stewart is better.  And the cards from Steward are much better than Amulet's Silver gaining in an engine.  On the flip side, Amulet is significantly better for big money and slogs.  Amulet's Silver gaining is great and selective trashing is better than fast trashing.  It could be that these advantages and disadvantages cancel out and they are similarly valuable/impactful, but that isn't necessarily the case.

I expect Ferry to raise in the rankings as more people play with it.  I ranked it at #3 (though I didn't rank Urchin due to unfamiliarity).  It's bonkers.  5-cost cards become super easy to gain.  And with something like Goons or Grand Market, it's game-warping.

For what it's worth, I support Ambassador > Masquerade.  In my mind, Ambassador is the most impactful card in the game.  I'm almost never going to ignore it, and it is always going to change the game significantly.  While Masquerade is just as ignorable, it isn't usually as impactful.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2015, 12:10:20 pm »
+1

Ambassador? I didn't vote for him!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2015, 12:40:53 pm »
0


Also, Steward and Amulet should be right next to each other. They're both very strong and fulfill very similar roles.

They are definitely not almost exactly as good as each other, not one bit. As trashers, Stewart is somewhat faster as it doesn't miss shuffles and trashing 2 cards now means you redraw the Stewart sooner than if you trashed one card each turn twice before discarding.

The biggest thing though is that the upside of Stewart is how it isn't useless once you're thinned out. It draws cards or gives you money. Amulet has no draw option at all, which is significantly worse in engines. It's a terminal Copper this turn and effectively a Peddler next turn.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 12:43:59 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2015, 02:40:41 pm »
0

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
I would put at top card
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2015, 02:59:39 pm »
0

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
I would put at top card

While Steward can only trash up to 2 instead of up to 4, doesn't its versatility make it better than Chapel in many cases? I rank Steward at #3 after Masq and Amb, and so I'd have trouble ranking Chapel above #4.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2015, 03:07:35 pm »
+2

I don't think Chapel would be the best $3 card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2015, 03:57:46 pm »
0

I think I put Ferry at #4. It's bonkers, right?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2015, 04:06:22 pm »
+4

Considering the vast majority of the time that I buy Chapel, it costs $3, and that I will often buy it over a Steward at the time, I'd rank it above Steward. Not sure where I'd put it in relation to Masquerade and Ambassador, as those cards sort of warp the value of Chapel in games where those cards appear together.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2015, 05:43:21 pm »
0

Out of curiosity, what would people rank Chapel if it cost $3 instead of $2?

that's a nice question. it's below ambassador/masquerade for sure. those are my top two and i'd put chapel at 3.
I would put at top card

While Steward can only trash up to 2 instead of up to 4, doesn't its versatility make it better than Chapel in many cases? I rank Steward at #3 after Masq and Amb, and so I'd have trouble ranking Chapel above #4.
4 is greater than 2 by 2 shuffles (about 2-4 turns). So unless the versatility can make up for those less productive shuffles chapel > steward
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2015, 06:21:59 pm »
+2

I don't think Chapel would be the best $3 card.

Considering that I almost always buy Chapel over the current top three $3, I am pretty sure at $3, I would rank Chapel #1. Hell, I consider Chapel at $2 the best card in the game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #114 on: November 10, 2015, 10:42:17 pm »
+1

I'd put Chapel at 3, but it's very hard to judge for me. Ambassador > Urchin > Chapel > Masquerade for me, but they're all so close in power level that it's not a big difference. Depending on the day, you switch the locations of Ambassador/Urchin/Masquerade and I'd agree. But I don't think I can rank Chapel above any 2 of those.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2015, 07:32:00 am »
+2

I don't really get Urchin at #3. It's pretty nice (I have it at #11), but it's not that good imo.

...

So all in all, Mercenary is very powerful, but there are a lot of factors that balance it out. In my opinion Urchin is nowhere near the leagues of Ambassador or Masquerade.

I remember going through this exact internal struggle when doing my lists. I shed a single tear and then determined that Urchin is, in fact, that good.

If Chapel cost $3 I'd put it above Steward for sure. I'm reasonably sure it wouldn't be #1 but man that's a tough question to answer. That would require a lot of thought at minimum and much more likely, lots of games of a Dominion variant where Chapel costs $3 and is in every kingdom.

I know this has mostly been talked about already but it's being brought up here again so here we go! Amulet and Steward are similar cards, yes, but I don't think that means they should be right next to each other on the rankings. The biggest difference between them is that Steward can draw cards and Amulet can't, and I think this is a HUGE deal. Drawing cards is like, really really stinkin' good.

Even if you assume that the trashing abilities of the two cards are roughly equal (which I believe Steward's is much stronger overall, but obvs. it depends on the board and there was not full agreement, which is too bad because I'm very sure I'm right about this), drawing cards is way better than gaining a silver on much more than 55% of all boards. <3 <3 <3 Steward ily <3 <3 <3
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2015, 11:08:46 am »
+2

Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.

If trashing is all you care about (which is plausible), shouldn't you prefer another cheap trasher with a lower opportunity cost? Like, one of the two cards we're discussing below?

Even if you assume that the trashing abilities of the two cards are roughly equal (which I believe Steward's is much stronger overall, but obvs. it depends on the board and there was not full agreement, which is too bad because I'm very sure I'm right about this), drawing cards is way better than gaining a silver on much more than 55% of all boards. <3 <3 <3 Steward ily <3 <3 <3

I agree that drawing cards is better than gaining Silvers most of the time, but Amulet's trashing is in my opinion stronger than Steward's. Playing Steward involves having a 2-card hand left, with which you can't do a whole lot, while Amulet spreads out the trashing. It is also more flexible in general; if you don't want to trash a second card for some reason, you just gain a Silver or get +$1 instead. These boons balance Amulet's weaknesses, not being able to draw cards and missing more shuffles. All in all, I'd say that they're about even in strength. (I ranked Amulet slightly higher myself but I will admit that may be the novelty factor)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2015, 12:42:47 pm »
+6

Getting rid of the "Mercenary food" is the entire purpose of the card. The faster you run out of it, the better.

If trashing is all you care about (which is plausible), shouldn't you prefer another cheap trasher with a lower opportunity cost? Like, one of the two cards we're discussing below?

You also care about hitting $5, screwing up your opponent's trashing and screwing up your opponent's $5 in the early game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2015, 02:27:21 pm »
+4

aleimon: i have tried ignoring urchin in favor of even junk dealer (clearly the best $5 trasher and thus one of the absolute best period), and i get absolutely slaughtered whenever i go that route.  i think i've figured out two key reasons why -

1. the deck-thinning phase of the game is precisely when mercenary's attack hurts the most.

2. mercenary usually enables you to buy a decent engine piece while trashing 2 cards, which is pretty much the gold standard for early trashing.



i've been realizing more and more that "thinning is winning" isn't quite right, and i think the real magic bullet is mixing in thinning with early deck-building tempo.  thinning is usually better if you have to choose between the two, yes, but not having to make that choice is the best possible situation.  mercenary gives that power to you *and* takes it away from your opponent, often forcing them to decide whether to keep silvers or estates.  the amount of time it takes to get it is the sole reason it's not the best card in the game, imo.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2015, 02:36:01 pm »
0

i've been realizing more and more that "thinning is winning" isn't quite right

When I say that, it means when I have a choice between an option that involves thinning and an option that involves not thinning (sifting, big draw, pseudo-trashing, playing the same strategy without thinning), and I think it's a close call, that I should just thin.

When you have a choice between multiple cards that trash, well of course "thinning is hwinning" doesn't really apply, you have to consider all of the other things you said. I actually really like the way you put that, the only thing I disagree with is you saying

junk dealer (clearly the best $5 trasher and thus one of the absolute best period)

I think this depends on a lot of things, of course. Statements as strong and as general as this are nearly impossible to make and be correct about. Ha, I just made a statement that was almost as strong and as general as the one you made and now I'm claiming it's right. LOLOL

Are there other trashers that exist that would make me skip Urchin? Of course, they're out there. But for the reasons you stated, a lot of the time you still want to go for Urchins anyways.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2015, 05:02:47 pm »
+3

I must say that I agree with huge parts of this year's list. It looks very similar to my personal ranking. There are just a handful of cards where I have a different opinion:

#38 Masterpiece (I have it on 18#):
I know that Big Money isn't quite popular these days, but Masterpiece is a good BM card. It needs some support, but with cards that let you have big hands at the start of the game (Embassy, Vault, Smithy, even Tactician) can fllod you deck with Silvers. This works quite well more often than I'd expect. And it's bonkers with Feodum, of course. Okay, #18 is probably too high, but I don't see it as bad as #38.

#36 Sage (I have it on #27):
While Sage often doesn't do much in the middle and late game, it can be huge as opener to see your $4 card faster. For me it's a solid card and not as bad as others seem to see it.

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

#22 Expedition (I have it on #15):
I really, really expect Expedition to have a strong impact on many boards. $3 is quite a low cost for starting the next turn with 2 Labs.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2015, 05:25:59 pm »
0

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, to the point where I have it on the exact same position. Caravan Guard is so so so weak and inflexible and unreliable, I almost regret putting it above anything at all, even if that 'anything' is Chancellor. It consistently fails the Silver test in almost every situation, its reaction part is almost useless, and it generally makes you wonder why you ever bothered to pick it up. The only reason to buy it is if you really want cheap cantrips for some reason, in which case I'd prefer Vagrant or even Pearl Diver, because they're both cheaper, or indeed Great Hall, because of the VP.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2015, 05:34:23 pm »
+8

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

1VP is literally nothing. $1 can be the difference between getting a Mountebank or a Silver.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

It is a relatively fast trasher. It's non-terminal and cycles 2 cards. That's faster than some even very highly ranked cards such as Masquerade and Forager. It's also incredibly common to overestimate how much of a problem it is that you don't get to see what cards you're trashing before you commit to trashing something; unless you're forced to play it with e.g. Herald, you can just wait until you know for sure that there's a junk card in the top 3 as long as you pay attention to it, and this doesn't even slow you down too much.


#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

If there's a viable engine, Black Market is quite likely the best payload you can possibly get for it. Even if there is already a better payload card in the kingdom, such as Bridge, Black Market is still sometimes worth using in combination with it.

It consistently fails the Silver test in almost every situation, its reaction part is almost useless, and it generally makes you wonder why you ever bothered to pick it up. The only reason to buy it is if you really want cheap cantrips for some reason, in which case I'd prefer Vagrant or even Pearl Diver, because they're both cheaper, or indeed Great Hall, because of the VP.

The Silver test is not a thing. The only test that you need to worry about is the nothing test, and Caravan Guard almost never fails the nothing test, unlike, say, Silver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2015, 05:50:33 pm »
+6

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

I quite strongly disagree with both of these statements. BM enables quite a number of engines that otherwise wouldn't be possible, and all but the most powerful engine is made stronger by the inclusion of Black Market, enabling as it does the mid-turn gaining of exclusive cards. I recommend Stef's Black Market article for more info:

Only play Black Market in an engine. Fortunately an engine is almost always viable with Black Market on the board.
[...]
0, 1 or 2
[...] Your initial plan should be to play with 1 Black Market. Exceptions arise when you can't significantly get the frequency up (no trashing, no village+draw) or when the Black Market contains some cheap bombs. I estimate 10% for 0, 60% for 1 and 30% for 2 early copies.

Fwiw, this is my top 10:

Code: [Select]
1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Urchin   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Black Market   [X]
6.) Forager   [X]
7.) Steward   [X]
8.) Amulet   [X]
9.) Menagerie   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]

And yes, everything that's alive in me was screaming in agony when I put the card on position four above the one on five.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #124 on: November 11, 2015, 06:13:10 pm »
+1

Caravan guard is very good in a SP mirror because you can play them as peddlers on opponents turns and SP loves cantrips and non-terminals
#36 Sage (I have it on #27):
While Sage often doesn't do much in the middle and late game, it can be huge as opener to see your $4 card faster. For me it's a solid card and not as bad as others seem to see it.

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.
Sage I hate sage with a passion! Like 90% of the time I wish it was something else or less. It would rather be a silver in slogs and big money. In a engine there is probably something better than it. In a rush it sucks. As an opener you should probably be buying something else instead of wasting your time on a sifting cantrip.

Caravan Guard Is nothing special but at least it is a cantrip that does something.

Lookout Is about as fast as forager with a minor risk mitigated by deck tracking

Black Market is really good even when there is a engine available. It almost always has something worth buying black market for. In engines that are missing strong payload, draw, trashing, or +buy black market is absolutely great.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 06:28:44 pm by Limetime »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2015, 04:48:23 am »
0

#33 Caravan Guard (I have it on #42):
What? While not having much experience with it, I feel this card is very weak. It doesn't do anything this turn and just gives some $1 next turn. Or you have to have it in hand when being attacked, and then you get $1? Does that help? I guess in games with permanent attacks it can be nice to have some Caravan Guards, but I assume I'd prefer something else for $3 most of the time. For example Great Hall, which at least gives 1VP.

1VP is literally nothing. $1 can be the difference between getting a Mountebank or a Silver.

Hum, I always thought Mountebank costs $5. ;) I agree that 1VP doesn't make much difference very often. But having one Caravan Guard won't do much difference either. I assume you need some more to get a noticeable effect. In that case, you could also have bought some Great Halls, and I think 3-4 VP can make a difference.

#23 Lookout (I have it on #36):
I don't see why Lookout gained some ranks. I feel it is a slow trasher that sometimes doesn't hit at all and becomes weaker and weaker in the course of a game.

It is a relatively fast trasher. It's non-terminal and cycles 2 cards. That's faster than some even very highly ranked cards such as Masquerade and Forager. It's also incredibly common to overestimate how much of a problem it is that you don't get to see what cards you're trashing before you commit to trashing something; unless you're forced to play it with e.g. Herald, you can just wait until you know for sure that there's a junk card in the top 3 as long as you pay attention to it, and this doesn't even slow you down too much.
Got your point. But often it fails horribly trying to remove the last junk cards from your deck, because you draw them before Lookout and have no way to discard them. So at least it's not as flexible as Forager or even Masquerade.

#13 Black Market (I have it on #22):
While actually enjoying Black Market games a lot, I think it's skippable quite often. If there's already a viable engine, one doesn't need BM. And if not, BM rarely makes an engine viable.

If there's a viable engine, Black Market is quite likely the best payload you can possibly get for it. Even if there is already a better payload card in the kingdom, such as Bridge, Black Market is still sometimes worth using in combination with it.

BM enables quite a number of engines that otherwise wouldn't be possible, and all but the most powerful engine is made stronger by the inclusion of Black Market, enabling as it does the mid-turn gaining of exclusive cards.

So you're relying on BM to get some decent payload? What if you don't get the payload you want? Then you've played some turns using a terminal Silver as your payload.


Fwiw, this is my top 10:

Code: [Select]
1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Urchin   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Black Market   [X]
6.) Forager   [X]
7.) Steward   [X]
8.) Amulet   [X]
9.) Menagerie   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]

And yes, everything that's alive in me was screaming in agony when I put the card on position four above the one on five.

My list is actually quite similar:

Code: [Select]
1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Fishing Village   [X]
4.) Urchin   [X]
5.) Steward   [X]
6.) Swindler   [X]
7.) Forager   [X]
8.) Hermit   [X]
9.) Amulet   [X]
10.) Gear   [X]
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #126 on: November 12, 2015, 05:30:40 am »
0

Hum, I always thought Mountebank costs $5. ;) I agree that 1VP doesn't make much difference very often. But having one Caravan Guard won't do much difference either. I assume you need some more to get a noticeable effect. In that case, you could also have bought some Great Halls, and I think 3-4 VP can make a difference.

Indeed, Mountebank costs $5. $5 is hard to hit in the early game, an extra +$1 that doesn't cost you a card in your hand is extremely helpful in hitting that $5, and if you fail to hit $5, sometimes there's nothing great at $4. Great Hall doesn't make that sort of a difference, it's something you buy over nothing very late in the game if you happen to get a dead turn. An opening Caravan Guard might actually help you skip Silver altogether if you need that, although it's probably not as good as Wishing Well or Oasis because it's a Duration so it misses the reshuffle more often. If it's easier to think of it this way, the difference between Great Hall and Caravan Guard is somewhat comparable to the difference between Copper and Estate.

Got your point. But often it fails horribly trying to remove the last junk cards from your deck, because you draw them before Lookout and have no way to discard them. So at least it's not as flexible as Forager or even Masquerade.

If you're drawing your deck anyway, there's no need to get rid of your last junk cards. If you're not drawing your deck, well, maybe you didn't manage to have a Lookout in your hand and a junk card in your deck at the same time this turn, but that'll probably happen next turn instead. It is definitely not even close to being as flexible as Forager, but it's not that much less flexible than Masquerade, which also forces you to leave junk cards in your deck so that you can pass them.

So you're relying on BM to get some decent payload? What if you don't get the payload you want? Then you've played some turns using a terminal Silver as your payload.

You will get the payload you want if your opponent ignores Black Market. And usually, there are many options there that can function surprisingly well as payload when you're the only one who has access to them. And it's fine if it's sometimes just a terminal Silver; a terminal Silver is bad, but for $3, a terminal Silver is pretty much the economy boost you expect at that price point so you're not really falling behind in terms of early game economy unless you have too many terminals, and the turns when you actually buy something great from the Black Market deck are totally worth it.


And since we're posting top 10 lists now, here's mint (excluding Adventures):

Code: [Select]
1.) Ambassador   [X]
2.) Masquerade   [X]
3.) Urchin   [X]
4.) Swindler   [X]
5.) Fishing Village   [X]
6.) Steward   [X]
7.) Forager   [X]
8.) Menagerie   [X]
9.) Watchtower   [X]
10.) Hermit   [X]
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2015, 08:20:50 am »
+8

Why all the hate on Caravan Guard?  You guys all like Fishing Village, right?  And Lighthouse?  I know they do other things, but the coin on your next turn is certainly nice.  Play three CG's and next turn a hand of 5 Coppers gives you a Province.  Sure, that is slower than a Peddler or Oasis, but as soon as someone drops an Attack, particularly an innocuous one like Spy or Fortune Teller, all your CGs in hand (and any you end up drawing along the way) turn into normal Peddlers.  It's the cantrip that does not make you regret having a cantrip in hand when someone plays a handsize attack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2015, 08:26:49 am »
0

Why all the hate on Caravan Guard?  You guys all like Fishing Village, right?  And Lighthouse?  I know they do other things, but the coin on your next turn is certainly nice.  Play three CG's and next turn a hand of 5 Coppers gives you a Province.  Sure, that is slower than a Peddler or Oasis, but as soon as someone drops an Attack, particularly an innocuous one like Spy or Fortune Teller, all your CGs in hand (and any you end up drawing along the way) turn into normal Peddlers.  It's the cantrip that does not make you regret having a cantrip in hand when someone plays a handsize attack.

agreed. Caravan Guard, it's hard to rate, it's not a power card, but ignoring its reaction like, in some games I will prefer it to silver, probably in more games, I prefer silver; that's fine, that's true of say Oasis too. The reaction isn't very good but like, there's very little to this card that actively hurts you (the reaction even gets around the cantrip/militia problem).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2015, 09:30:24 am »
+1

wow i was lower on swindler and higher on forager than yall. not that much in either case but it seems practically universal

all my top five were trashers but i can def see where that would be a tad silly

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2015, 11:10:30 am »
0

Caravan Guard isn't BAD, on many boards it's a $3 Peddler and I do like how it is safer in the face of Militia / Goons than other cantrips. It's just a pretty slim benefit that's a bit hard to use and hard to justify gaining if it isn't essentially free (Ironworks, etc)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2015, 02:31:27 pm »
+2

I think we're seriously underestimating expedition. In the opening, the larger handsize makes you more likely to see your opening cards before turn 5. In the midgame, when your engine is sputtering and needs a small boost to take off, it blows silver out of the water. The extra two cards on your next turn are comparable to a wharf, and although Expedition will be your draw engine only under the rarest of circumstances, a well-timed expedition buy has done incredible things for me in real-life adventures games. I don't remember my own ranking, but it's entirely possible I have it in the top 10. Only Ferry is a stronger event at that price.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2015, 04:24:27 pm »
0

wow i was lower on swindler and higher on forager than yall. not that much in either case but it seems practically universal

all my top five were trashers but i can def see where that would be a tad silly

I had Forager at #3 and I think Swindler was 6 or 7.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2015, 10:18:38 am »
0

I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #134 on: November 13, 2015, 10:38:12 am »
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I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...

It's still showing for me.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2015, 10:46:28 am »
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I uploaded a new picture for Workshop to the wiki, and now for some reason the picture is no longer showing up in the list here...

It's still showing for me.

Okay, it seems to have recovered.  Odd.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2015, 03:26:23 am »
+15

When Tunnel came out, the "fill your deck with Gold" aspect was probably a little overrated; I mean, it's good, and it's often worth doing on a board with good discard and no big payload cards, but it's slow, and it's incompatible with other deck-types that are better (e.g. draw-your-deck-and-play-a-bunch-of-Goons).

However, conversely, the "it's 2 points for cheap" aspect was certainly underrated. It can tilt the score so dramatically in your favor when you pick up tunnels early in a cursing-with-slow-trashing game that you either outright win on a 3-pile before your opponent gets a chance to build up a reasonable deck, or threaten that 3-pile so that your opponent can't pick up critical engine pieces.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #137 on: August 28, 2016, 11:14:54 am »
0

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 11:15:57 am by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #138 on: August 28, 2016, 11:20:38 am »
0

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

Yes but how often do you actually hit copper?  It is great when you don't super need to hit $5 and you don't want any money as payload.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #139 on: August 28, 2016, 11:27:10 am »
0

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

Yes but how often do you actually hit copper?  It is great when you don't super need to hit $5 and you don't want any money as payload.

Whenever you don't hit your second Loan, in many cases. Wanting money as payload doesn't have much to do with Loan's usefulness, since you don't really want the payload in your deck until you're drawing your entire deck anyway.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 11:32:19 am by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #140 on: August 28, 2016, 01:13:05 pm »
0

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

No.

1. Loan often 'conveniently' skips all of your $5 costs.
2. If you ever use even one Treasure that is not Copper, your Loan will inevitably hit that one Treasure.
3. You have no control over what is trashed.
4. Loan becomes a liability later on, when you need one extra coin, but it triggers a bad shuffle as a result.

Loan is awful. If you have to get it, you have to get it, but that doesn't mean it is good. I'd rather wait until hitting $5 to get JD than just get Loan.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 01:15:25 pm by Seprix »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #141 on: August 28, 2016, 01:31:58 pm »
+2

Lately I've been playing a lot of games with Loan (by coincidence) and I've found that it is super underrated. Trashing a Copper with Loan is roughly as strong/possibly even stronger than trashing a Copper with a Junk Dealer.

No.

1. Loan often 'conveniently' skips all of your $5 costs.
2. If you ever use even one Treasure that is not Copper, your Loan will inevitably hit that one Treasure.
3. You have no control over what is trashed.
4. Loan becomes a liability later on, when you need one extra coin, but it triggers a bad shuffle as a result.

Loan is awful. If you have to get it, you have to get it, but that doesn't mean it is good. I'd rather wait until hitting $5 to get JD than just get Loan.

1. It skips Estates more often in the early game, which is when it matters.
2. That's just another reason to avoid buying Treasures other than Loan in the early game. But you can easily get one Silver or another Loan; the odds of hitting it are really low in the early game, which is when it matters.
3. Except it's always a Copper as long as you don't have any other Treasures.
4. It's still better to have than Chapel in that situation.

Loan is really good. I'd say it's up there with Forager and Lookout as far as $3 trashers are concerned (it's more powerful, but it can get slightly inconvenient sooner). If JD and Loan are both on the board, I think you want to get both unless you open 5/2.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 01:50:30 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #142 on: August 28, 2016, 01:49:26 pm »
0

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #143 on: August 28, 2016, 01:58:10 pm »
0

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.

I'd buy it over Forager in some cases. I actually just did that today.

I'm aware that I'm challenging conventional wisdom here. I'm doing it for a good reason. It's not easy to see why Loan is as good as it is, because it tends to feel pretty bad when you hit something you don't want to trash, but if you just look at the raw numbers, it's just super good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #144 on: August 28, 2016, 02:03:27 pm »
0

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.

I'd buy it over Forager in some cases. I actually just did that today.

I'm aware that I'm challenging conventional wisdom here. I'm doing it for a good reason. It's not easy to see why Loan is as good as it is, because it tends to feel pretty bad when you hit something you don't want to trash, but if you just look at the raw numbers, it's just super good.

You might be right.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #145 on: August 28, 2016, 02:09:13 pm »
+1

Loan, up there with Forager? Look, you're a great player, and I respect your opinion, but I think you're 100% wrong in this instance. I just don't see it.
He has some good points at least. He's 90%-93% right.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #146 on: August 28, 2016, 03:48:22 pm »
0

I remember one game where I used Loan with Masquerade in a Cultist game. It was quite effective there I think.

So yeah Loan is good with terminal draw, say like Courtyard.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #147 on: August 28, 2016, 04:00:44 pm »
0

I think gkrieg13 put it best: It's great when spiking $5 early isn't important, and you don't want any Treasures (and you don't plan on getting any later).  This is pretty rare, which is maybe why people rank it low, but it happens.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 04:01:59 pm by Dingan »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #148 on: August 28, 2016, 06:33:24 pm »
0

Awaclus is mostly right.
Loan's only problem is it can't trash estates and it can't trash with nothing in your discard.
Hitting a good treasure basically means you cycled x amount of cards where one is a good treasure.

Forager/loan is better than forager/forager in 90-93% of the time and sometimes loan loan is better than both of those.
Forager trashes one card <- Loan trashes  one treasure
Forager doesn't cycle -> loan cycles at least one card
Forager is more likely to trash a bad card(has to have one in hand) <- loan is less likely to trash a card(Has to hit a bad treasure)
Forager usually gives a net coin of 0  -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1
Forager can be drawn dead-> loan cannot
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 12:01:07 pm by Limetime »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #149 on: August 28, 2016, 06:36:08 pm »
0

Awaclus is mostly right.
Loan's only problem is it can't trash estates and it can't trash with nothing in your discard.
Hitting a good treasure basically means you cycled x amount of cards where one is a good treasure.

Forager/loan is better than forager/forager in 90-93% of the time and sometimes loan loan is better than both of those.
Forager trashes one card <- Loan trashes  one treasure
Forager doesn't cycle -> loan cycles at least one card
Forager is more likely to trash a bad card(has to have one in hand) <- loan is less likely to trash a card(Has to hit a bad treasure)
Forager usually gives a net coin of 0 to -1 -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1

And once you trash a copper with loan, all your foragers give +.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #150 on: August 28, 2016, 06:36:57 pm »
+1

Loan also can't be drawn dead, so Smithy/Loan, Envoy/Loan, Masq/Loan, etc. are more attractive.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #151 on: August 28, 2016, 08:00:29 pm »
0

Forager usually gives a net coin of 0 to -1 -> Loan always gives a net coin of 1

When does Forager ever give a net coin of -1?  It usually gives a net coin of 0 (trashing an Estate before a Copper has been trashed, trashing a Copper, or trashing the first Silver/Gold).  It sometimes provides net 1 coin (trashing an Estate/Curse/Ruin after a Copper has been trashed, trashing a Loan or Quarry).  And, rarely, it provides more than 1 net coin (trashing a Potion, situations where multiple treasures are trashed).

Also unmentioned in your comparison is that Forager provides +buy, which is occasionally useful.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #152 on: August 29, 2016, 12:24:56 am »
0

I remember one game where I used Loan with Masquerade in a Cultist game. It was quite effective there I think.

So yeah Loan is good with terminal draw, say like Courtyard.

Courtyard is particularly good with Loan because it helps to ensure that Loan hits a Copper! While Scavenger can also do the same thing, the cards have negative synergy too because if you put a stronger card than Copper on top (and can't then draw it), playing Loan will skip it. Count already trashes, making the top-decking a copper function less needed, and Mandarin's probably a weak card in your Loan deck even counting the top-deck interaction.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #153 on: August 29, 2016, 11:11:56 am »
0

I've actually been growing to like Loan a lot more lately, in games where trashing is limited and I want my Coppers gone as soon as possible. Sometimes I even buy 2. It's nice early on in games with weak engines that also have Colony there and you're like "goddamnit I have to make this work".

The main trick to using it well is, buy as few other Treasure as possible as long as you can stand it. It's best opened without a Silver - think like Hermit / Loan or Jack / Loan or whatever.

Forager is, like, clearly better, because of the +Buy mostly, but I guess I understand why people don't like it sometimes? But it's an important Trasher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #154 on: August 29, 2016, 12:10:06 pm »
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I've actually been growing to like Loan a lot more lately, in games where trashing is limited and I want my Coppers gone as soon as possible. Sometimes I even buy 2. It's nice early on in games with weak engines that also have Colony there and you're like "goddamnit I have to make this work".

The main trick to using it well is, buy as few other Treasure as possible as long as you can stand it. It's best opened without a Silver - think like Hermit / Loan or Jack / Loan or whatever.

Forager is, like, clearly better, because of the +Buy mostly, but I guess I understand why people don't like it sometimes? But it's an important Trasher.
jack and loan seem anti synergistic.
Forager's + buy isn't that important.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #155 on: August 29, 2016, 12:15:45 pm »
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I've actually been growing to like Loan a lot more lately, in games where trashing is limited and I want my Coppers gone as soon as possible. Sometimes I even buy 2. It's nice early on in games with weak engines that also have Colony there and you're like "goddamnit I have to make this work".

The main trick to using it well is, buy as few other Treasure as possible as long as you can stand it. It's best opened without a Silver - think like Hermit / Loan or Jack / Loan or whatever.

Forager is, like, clearly better, because of the +Buy mostly, but I guess I understand why people don't like it sometimes? But it's an important Trasher.
jack and loan seem anti synergistic.
Forager's + buy isn't that important.

Loan doesn't help much in Jack BM, but it does help with Jack-in-an-engine strategies where you barely want the Silver anyway. It makes your deck actively smaller and only really trips a lot after the third shuffle.

More than one time, I've bought Forager just for the +Buy, using Beggar or IGG or something to gain fuel for it in order to get multiple Province buys a turn. +Buy is scarce enough that its presence on a card makes it a relevant factor on enough boards to be worth mentioning.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2016, 01:07:50 pm »
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I think gkrieg13 put it best: It's great when spiking $5 early isn't important, and you don't want any Treasures (and you don't plan on getting any later).  This is pretty rare, which is maybe why people rank it low, but it happens.

Loan is great especially when spiking $5 early is important (but not absolutely necessary) while trashing early is also important. That one coin that it gives is huge compared to something like Lookout or Forager. A Loan/Silver opening is already fairly likely to hit $5.
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