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Author Topic: League of Explorers Discussion  (Read 11431 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2015, 11:21:05 pm »
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They don't universally apply to all cards.  Prophet Velen is less strictly better than War Golem due to Mind Control, but Dr. Boom isn't.

Just because Blizz wrote "lol, Murlocs" on the card doesn't mean you should look at the mechanics of what's happening differently.

Dr. Boom is still less strictly better than War Golem due to Thoughtsteal.
Not if you use Brawl.

You can object to a definition that cares about specific combos with specific others cards like Murloc, that's okay.  But you do have to relax your constraints somehow to make the term useful.
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2015, 03:58:48 am »
+3

Looking over the cards another time... I think this is the most well designed expansion since Classic.

Maybe Blizzard is actually improving.
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markusin

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2015, 08:09:11 am »
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Looking over the cards another time... I think this is the most well designed expansion since Classic.

Maybe Blizzard is actually improving.

Yeah, it has a mixture of stable cards, unique effects, syerngy cards, and a few wonky effects.

I think it would have been really cool if this expansion came out right after Classic. I expect it to be difficult for a lot of the discover-a-minion cards to find a place in a meta full of powerful aggro decks.
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KingZog3

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2015, 09:51:18 am »
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Looking over the cards another time... I think this is the most well designed expansion since Classic.

Maybe Blizzard is actually improving.

Yeah, it has a mixture of stable cards, unique effects, syerngy cards, and a few wonky effects.

I think it would have been really cool if this expansion came out right after Classic. I expect it to be difficult for a lot of the discover-a-minion cards to find a place in a meta full of powerful aggro decks.

I think they are valuing Discover more than it is worth, but not as badly as they did Inspire. Still, there's a lot of good arena cards, and a few of the discover cards might be testes out.
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2015, 12:44:20 pm »
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Looking over the cards another time... I think this is the most well designed expansion since Classic.

Maybe Blizzard is actually improving.

Yeah, it has a mixture of stable cards, unique effects, syerngy cards, and a few wonky effects.

I think it would have been really cool if this expansion came out right after Classic. I expect it to be difficult for a lot of the discover-a-minion cards to find a place in a meta full of powerful aggro decks.

Ben Brode has hinted to a digital solution similar to rotating formats to address power creep at blizzcon.  They are "not far from making an announcement" about it
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2015, 02:47:53 pm »
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If anyone hasn't noticed yet, the deck that loves the Murlington explorer guy the most, by far, is Aggro Warrior
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KingZog3

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2015, 02:55:56 pm »
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If anyone hasn't noticed yet, the deck that loves the Murlington explorer guy the most, by far, is Aggro Warrior

Yeah, because any hero power is a better hero power. Still won't make it a thing thougj.
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qmech

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2015, 03:24:42 pm »
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Surely Murloc Shaman benefits most from Sir Mrrglton?
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2015, 03:24:58 pm »
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If anyone hasn't noticed yet, the deck that loves the Murlington explorer guy the most, by far, is Aggro Warrior

Yeah, because any hero power is a better hero power. Still won't make it a thing thougj.

It's not tier 1, but in that archetype it has to be optimal
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Jorbles

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2015, 03:38:59 pm »
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I just want to see if these new cards make Mill Decks viable. Draw-draw-draw Golden Monkey.
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KingZog3

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2015, 03:39:16 pm »
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Surely Murloc Shaman benefits most from Sir Mrrglton?

It benefits, but not as much as a warrior deck with no hero power. Totems can still do stuff. Taunt, the 1/1, spell dmg. Even in murlocks they aren't useless. Armor up is useless in anything but control warrior really.
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blueblimp

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2015, 11:53:59 pm »
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Looking over the cards another time... I think this is the most well designed expansion since Classic.

Maybe Blizzard is actually improving.
I still feel like Naxx holds that place for me, although I could change my mind once LoE is out. Naxx to me felt better-designed than Classic itself. A very high proportion of cards were playable but didn't dominate their mana cost slot, and it made possible new deck archetypes. Many of the cards favored slower decks, too (like Zombie Chow and Sludge Belcher). The only big misstep with Naxx was Undertaker, and they took way too long to fix that, but just looking back at the cards in general, there are so many that made the game a lot better.
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2015, 12:20:40 am »
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You like Mad Scientist's design?  You're in a small club there.
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KingZog3

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2015, 12:23:51 am »
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Mad scientist hasn't bothered me. Maybe because I'm used to it. But it doesn't seem game breakingly good. It's amazing, don't get me wrong, but otherwise so many decks just wouldn't be playable without it.
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2015, 12:48:53 am »
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Mad scientist hasn't bothered me. Maybe because I'm used to it. But it doesn't seem game breakingly good. It's amazing, don't get me wrong, but otherwise so many decks just wouldn't be playable without it.

Secret mage feeling viable the 30% of the time you curve into scientist and feeling like garbage the 70% of the time you don't isn't that fun.
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KingZog3

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2015, 01:25:27 am »
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Mad scientist hasn't bothered me. Maybe because I'm used to it. But it doesn't seem game breakingly good. It's amazing, don't get me wrong, but otherwise so many decks just wouldn't be playable without it.

Secret mage feeling viable the 30% of the time you curve into scientist and feeling like garbage the 70% of the time you don't isn't that fun.

You mean like the flamewaker mage? It wins more than 30% of the time, so I'd argue it's viable on draws that don't include mad scientist.

How would you change it to make it ok?
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popsofctown

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2015, 01:59:18 am »
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Mad scientist hasn't bothered me. Maybe because I'm used to it. But it doesn't seem game breakingly good. It's amazing, don't get me wrong, but otherwise so many decks just wouldn't be playable without it.

Secret mage feeling viable the 30% of the time you curve into scientist and feeling like garbage the 70% of the time you don't isn't that fun.

You mean like the flamewaker mage? It wins more than 30% of the time, so I'd argue it's viable on draws that don't include mad scientist.

How would you change it to make it ok?

I thought you were reffering to janky secret decks with kirin tor mage, because you referred to some deck that supposedly needs Mad Scientist to exist.  Flamewaker Mage and Hunter don't need scientist to be viable, so I just don't really get what you mean by "otherwise so many decks just wouldn't be playable without it"
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blueblimp

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2015, 03:05:19 am »
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You like Mad Scientist's design?  You're in a small club there.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that I like it, but I don't think it's causing big problems in the game either. Call it a small misstep maybe?
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2015, 07:40:35 am »
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I really like Mad Scientist's design, I just think it's too powerful.

Haddock

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2015, 07:45:22 am »
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I really think with Mysterious Challenger around, complaining about Mad Scientist seems pretty crazy.  Completely different decktypes, of course, but still.  I think for there to only be two mildly OP cards in a set (Naxx, if we can only name undertaker and Mad Scientist), and the rest somewhere in the middle, at least interesting, is still much better than GvG and TGT which have had mostly crap but several pieces of unbelievable OP.
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markusin

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2015, 08:56:00 am »
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Looking over the cards another time... I think this is the most well designed expansion since Classic.

Maybe Blizzard is actually improving.

Yeah, it has a mixture of stable cards, unique effects, syerngy cards, and a few wonky effects.

I think it would have been really cool if this expansion came out right after Classic. I expect it to be difficult for a lot of the discover-a-minion cards to find a place in a meta full of powerful aggro decks.

Ben Brode has hinted to a digital solution similar to rotating formats to address power creep at blizzcon.  They are "not far from making an announcement" about it
If they do have rotating formats, wouldn't that wreck decks with tribe synergy? Like, a Pirate deck would need to make use of the best pirates from all the expansions to work. I guess it's not a big loss to have those decks only stick in a legacy format. Maybe they belong there.
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blueblimp

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2015, 09:22:09 am »
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I really think with Mysterious Challenger around, complaining about Mad Scientist seems pretty crazy.
Well, Challenger is also a problem for the same reason.

The issue with Scientist is that for it to not be ridiculously OP, secrets have to be bad cards, or at least highly situational. After all, you're spending 2 mana and 1 card to get a 2/2 body (1.5 mana worth of tempo, 1 card) and a secret (2 mana for Hunter, 3 mana for Mage; 1 card), so you're +1.5 or +2.5 mana tempo and +1 card above par. This is partially balanced by most secrets being poor cards individually, which both makes Scientist's deathrattle effect weaker than it seems at first glance _and_ more subtly requires you to run bad cards in your deck.

(There are many exceptions where secrets don't quite fit this simplistic mold. Ice Barrier and Ice Block were used in Freeze Mage before Mad Scientist, after all. As another example, Duplicate is a secret that is good in the right deck but you might not want to draw off Scientist's deathrattle.)

Problem is, if you make cards like Mad Scientist and Mysterious Challenger, you've locked yourself into a design where secrets are bad cards that you only put in your deck so that you can hope not to draw them directly and instead put them directly into play via Scientist/Challenger. Every future secret designed has to be sufficiently bad so as to not make Scientist/Challenger more OP, but still good enough that you can justify putting it in your deck at all. That distorts the design of secrets in an ugly way.
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Jorbles

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2015, 11:43:56 am »
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I think Mad Scientist is well designed. Before it existed people would think you ... mad ... just for running a secret, but once it existed it made lots of secrets viable. Is it strong, yes, maybe a tiny bit too strong, but certainly weaker than other cards. Its creation opened up the use of other cards though, in a time when they were rarely played.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2015, 11:50:55 am »
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Mad Scientist is definitely in my face hunter deck because it lets me run secrets and pull them early to play 'for free' and doubles as effective card filtering. I love cheating cards out like this in MtG and it's no less satisfying in HS.

The only thing that annoys me is I have been playing against people who just silence them :(

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2015, 11:53:43 am »
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The only thing that annoys me is I have been playing against people who just silence them :(
Yep, against certain decks I will keep an ironbeak in my opening hand quite often, (assuming I draw it), it's such a hard counter to scientist and will cripple an opening for some decks.
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