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Author Topic: League of Explorers Discussion  (Read 12573 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2015, 04:55:10 am »
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They printed a card strictly better than Wisp.:o

It's not strictly better because of Hungry Crab.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 05:17:31 am »
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They printed a card strictly better than Wisp.:o

It's not strictly better because of Hungry Crab.

http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Strictly_better
Quote
Strictly better describes a card which is, in isolation from other effects, superior to another card in at least one respect, while being worse in zero respects. Cards are commonly found to be strictly better than others by virtue of lower cost, larger effect, instant speed, greater power or toughness, or more versatile or added effects.
In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why Murloc Tinyfin is considered strictly better than Wisp according to this definition.
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Awaclus

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2015, 05:31:55 am »
+2

In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why Murloc Tinyfin is considered strictly better than Wisp according to this definition.

Having a minion type doesn't do anything in isolation.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2015, 06:15:39 am »
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They printed a card strictly better than Wisp.:o

Yeah, since now all cards were only plainly better than wisp, now we finally have a strictly better one.

And Tinyfin actually makes things WORSE for murlocs.

Like, it nerfs Nepulon and more importantly, Murloc Knight.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 06:17:30 am by Grujah »
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2015, 06:24:46 am »
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Huge Toad replaces Raptor as the definitive 2-mana minion.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2015, 08:36:55 am »
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I want to Entomb a Tirion Fordring.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2015, 08:48:12 am »
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Excavated Evil is interesting. Against control you give them a board clear later, but against aggro you kill one of their draws. I wonder if that's good enough to run. I doubt it, but its cool.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2015, 09:13:11 am »
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They printed a card strictly better than Wisp.:o

Yeah, since now all cards were only plainly better than wisp, now we finally have a strictly better one.

And Tinyfin actually makes things WORSE for murlocs.

Like, it nerfs Nepulon and more importantly, Murloc Knight.
The 1/3 Legendary Murloc is also sort of a nerf to those cards.

Excavated Evil is interesting. Against control you give them a board clear later, but against aggro you kill one of their draws. I wonder if that's good enough to run. I doubt it, but its cool.

The problem I see with Excavated Evil is that Priest needs the minions it plays to survive. I think Lightbomb will often be the board wipe Priest wants. I like how they finally introduced a card to muck up the opponent's draw for real. It looks like the dev team is getting more experimental. It could still be good against the right deck

Also yeah the floodgates for strictly better cards have truly opened.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2015, 09:16:33 am »
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But sure it's strictly better, but not in a way that affects the game. Same as Ice Rager. It just doesn't matter. Piloted Shredder is power creep that matters.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2015, 09:49:05 am »
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But sure it's strictly better, but not in a way that affects the game. Same as Ice Rager. It just doesn't matter. Piloted Shredder is power creep that matters.

Yeah I can't call it powercreep because no one was playing Bloodfen Raptor, and any deck that would play Wisp wouldn't care for the Murloc tag.

I hope they one day make a card that gives a benefits to pure vanilla creatures that are in your hand or deck.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2015, 11:59:25 am »
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I want to Entomb a Tirion Fordring.

Took my a while to figure this out, I hate it when they use MTG name for a completely different effect :P
Entomb is, and always will be, search your library for a card and put it in your graveyard :P
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2015, 12:40:58 pm »
+1

Tinyfin isn't a Wisp buff, it's a Murloc Knight nerf.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2015, 01:16:12 pm »
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Tinyfin is cool because of the new Shaman spell. It could maybe get a good tempo play in the mid game. Thing is Shaman needs card draw, and murlocs NEED card draw. So I still doubt it'll be a thing.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2015, 03:57:57 pm »
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Somebody on reddit noticed that Freeze Mage got quite a buff.
First, Jackson. Given that FM usually draws it's whole deck, that + 2 Ice Block will be annoying.
Second, that dwarf explorer that doubles battlecries. As in, Healbot Battlecries.
Third, Torch. Usually the problem of Freeze Mage was that if you used Fireballs/frostbolts as removal, you were in deep shit unless you get some mileage of Antonidas. Torch can remove creatures early and be cheap fireball to face latter.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2015, 06:45:19 pm »
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In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why Murloc Tinyfin is considered strictly better than Wisp according to this definition.

Having a minion type doesn't do anything in isolation.
Why is that relevant? What I claimed is still true: in Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why cards like Puddlestomper (3/2 murloc) and Bloodfen Raptor (3/2 beast) can coexist as neutrals alongside cards like Knife Juggler (3/2 with triggered upside) and Wild Pyromancer (3/2 with triggered upside).
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2015, 06:53:14 pm »
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In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why Murloc Tinyfin is considered strictly better than Wisp according to this definition.

Having a minion type doesn't do anything in isolation.
Why is that relevant? What I claimed is still true: in Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why cards like Puddlestomper (3/2 murloc) and Bloodfen Raptor (3/2 beast) can coexist as neutrals alongside cards like Knife Juggler (3/2 with triggered upside) and Wild Pyromancer (3/2 with triggered upside).

Huge Toad is a 3/2 Beast with a deathrattle, which makes it strictly better than Raptor, right?

(Edge case: hits Patron/enrage dudes)
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Awaclus

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2015, 07:00:21 pm »
+1

Why is that relevant? What I claimed is still true: in Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why cards like Puddlestomper (3/2 murloc) and Bloodfen Raptor (3/2 beast) can coexist as neutrals alongside cards like Knife Juggler (3/2 with triggered upside) and Wild Pyromancer (3/2 with triggered upside).

It is pretty relevant. Either "strictly better" means "strictly better in isolation" or "strictly better with all the other cards". You can't cherry pick which cards, otherwise every card is strictly better than every card.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2015, 07:32:44 pm »
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Why is that relevant? What I claimed is still true: in Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why cards like Puddlestomper (3/2 murloc) and Bloodfen Raptor (3/2 beast) can coexist as neutrals alongside cards like Knife Juggler (3/2 with triggered upside) and Wild Pyromancer (3/2 with triggered upside).

It is pretty relevant. Either "strictly better" means "strictly better in isolation" or "strictly better with all the other cards". You can't cherry pick which cards, otherwise every card is strictly better than every card.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Tell me which of these you disagree with:
  • In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered beneficial, compared to not having a minion type.
  • Murloc Tinyfin is the same as Wisp apart from having a minion type added.
  • The standard CCG/MTG definition of strictly better.

My best guess at what you're arguing is that having a minion type is not beneficial. My counter-argument is, Bloodfen Raptor (neutral 2 mana 3/2 beast) and Wild Pyromancer (neutral 2 mana 3/2 with a triggered upside) were both cards in the initial release, and it's clear (to me at least) that the balance idea was that "being a beast" and "having a triggered upside" are both considered beneficial additions to a card.

But let's say you don't trust the balance within a single release. (Although I think they've been careful to not release neutrals with a strictly-better relationship at the same time.) If you then ask "how do we really know that having a minion type is beneficial without considering other cards?", I'd say that it's a fundamental design decision of Hearthstone that every minion type has significantly more cards that benefit from that type than that punish having that type. The minion types are Beast, Demon, Dragon, Mech, Murloc, Pirate, Totem. All of these have notable synergies with the minion type (examples: Houndmaster, Mal'Ganis, Blackwing Corruptor, Tinkertown Technician, Murloc Warleader, Southsea Captain, Thunder Bluff Valiant). Only the strongest minion types have hate cards, and they are all pretty much unplayably bad (examples: Hemet Nesingwary for beasts, Sacrificial Pact for demons, Hungry Crab for murlocs).

The only place I can see to go from there is to say, "well, what if there were no other cards in the entire game", because it's clear that if there _are_, then there are definitely going to be synergies with minion type, at least for murloc and beast. (Some of the other minion types didn't have synergies at time of release, although they didn't have anti-synergies either at that time IIRC.) But if that's the assumption we're using, then Wild Pyromancer's effect is also not beneficial, since if we pretend there are no other cards in the game, then there are no spells in the game. It becomes an absurd standard to use to judge cards.

Remember that definitions are chosen to be useful. If we were to choose a definition of "beneficial" that excluded a lot of effects that are obviously beneficial, that would not be a useful definition.
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Awaclus

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2015, 07:47:22 pm »
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Why is that relevant? What I claimed is still true: in Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why cards like Puddlestomper (3/2 murloc) and Bloodfen Raptor (3/2 beast) can coexist as neutrals alongside cards like Knife Juggler (3/2 with triggered upside) and Wild Pyromancer (3/2 with triggered upside).

It is pretty relevant. Either "strictly better" means "strictly better in isolation" or "strictly better with all the other cards". You can't cherry pick which cards, otherwise every card is strictly better than every card.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Tell me which of these you disagree with:
  • In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered beneficial, compared to not having a minion type.
  • Murloc Tinyfin is the same as Wisp apart from having a minion type added.
  • The standard CCG/MTG definition of strictly better.

None of them. What I disagree is the conclusion you're drawing from those premises. In Hearthstone, being a Dr. Boom is considered beneficial, compared to being a Wisp, but that doesn't mean Dr. Boom is strictly better than Wisp either. Therefore, point #1 is irrelevant to this discussion. Being a Murloc has advantages over not being a Murloc, but it also has disadvantages, namely Hungry Crab, which is why it is not strictly better.
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blueblimp

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2015, 08:03:05 pm »
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Why is that relevant? What I claimed is still true: in Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered a beneficial effect. That's why cards like Puddlestomper (3/2 murloc) and Bloodfen Raptor (3/2 beast) can coexist as neutrals alongside cards like Knife Juggler (3/2 with triggered upside) and Wild Pyromancer (3/2 with triggered upside).

It is pretty relevant. Either "strictly better" means "strictly better in isolation" or "strictly better with all the other cards". You can't cherry pick which cards, otherwise every card is strictly better than every card.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Tell me which of these you disagree with:
  • In Hearthstone, having a minion type is considered beneficial, compared to not having a minion type.
  • Murloc Tinyfin is the same as Wisp apart from having a minion type added.
  • The standard CCG/MTG definition of strictly better.

None of them. What I disagree is the conclusion you're drawing from those premises. In Hearthstone, being a Dr. Boom is considered beneficial, compared to being a Wisp, but that doesn't mean Dr. Boom is strictly better than Wisp either. Therefore, point #1 is irrelevant to this discussion. Being a Murloc has advantages over not being a Murloc, but it also has disadvantages, namely Hungry Crab, which is why it is not strictly better.
In other words, you disagree with the standard CCG/MTG definition of strictly better, which I linked earlier.
Quote
because of the sheer number of possible gameplay circumstances, for any given "strictly better" card, there is typically some imaginable set of circumstances in which it is, in fact, inferior to another card that would otherwise rank below it. ... However, "strictly better" is well understood among experienced Magic players, and is the prevailing description of such a relationship between cards.
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Awaclus

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2015, 09:14:45 pm »
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In other words, you disagree with the standard CCG/MTG definition of strictly better, which I linked earlier.
Quote
because of the sheer number of possible gameplay circumstances, for any given "strictly better" card, there is typically some imaginable set of circumstances in which it is, in fact, inferior to another card that would otherwise rank below it. ... However, "strictly better" is well understood among experienced Magic players, and is the prevailing description of such a relationship between cards.

Yes, that's why Dr. Boom is strictly better than War Golem even though sometimes the boom bots might do something undesirable. Having a minion type for which blatant hate tech cards exist is not "some imaginable set of circumstances".
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2015, 09:21:29 pm »
+1

In other words, you disagree with the standard CCG/MTG definition of strictly better, which I linked earlier.
Quote
because of the sheer number of possible gameplay circumstances, for any given "strictly better" card, there is typically some imaginable set of circumstances in which it is, in fact, inferior to another card that would otherwise rank below it. ... However, "strictly better" is well understood among experienced Magic players, and is the prevailing description of such a relationship between cards.

Yes, that's why Dr. Boom is strictly better than War Golem even though sometimes the boom bots might do something undesirable. Having a minion type for which blatant hate tech cards exist is not "some imaginable set of circumstances".
There is no reason to treat a specifically designed tech card differently from other cards that might make the characteristic undesirable.

I could call Mind Control a strictly better foil-er for Ice Rager and Thoughtsteal a strictly better foil-er for Heckler so if you let a single card erode "strictly better", then the term loses any and all value it had because there isn't a single card it can be applied to.  Thus, a definition that excludes specific, deliberate counters is more useful.
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Awaclus

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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2015, 09:28:42 pm »
0

There is no reason to treat a specifically designed tech card differently from other cards that might make the characteristic undesirable.

I could call Mind Control a strictly better foil-er for Ice Rager and Thoughtsteal a strictly better foil-er for Heckler so if you let a single card erode "strictly better", then the term loses any and all value it had because there isn't a single card it can be applied to.  Thus, a definition that excludes specific, deliberate counters is more useful.

Mind Control and Thoughtsteal universally apply to all cards, and better cards are still better cards even though they are also better targets for MC and Thoughtsteal.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2015, 10:31:42 pm »
0

There is no reason to treat a specifically designed tech card differently from other cards that might make the characteristic undesirable.

I could call Mind Control a strictly better foil-er for Ice Rager and Thoughtsteal a strictly better foil-er for Heckler so if you let a single card erode "strictly better", then the term loses any and all value it had because there isn't a single card it can be applied to.  Thus, a definition that excludes specific, deliberate counters is more useful.

Mind Control and Thoughtsteal universally apply to all cards, and better cards are still better cards even though they are also better targets for MC and Thoughtsteal.
They don't universally apply to all cards.  Prophet Velen is less strictly better than War Golem due to Mind Control, but Dr. Boom isn't.

Just because Blizz wrote "lol, Murlocs" on the card doesn't mean you should look at the mechanics of what's happening differently.
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Re: League of Explorers Discussion
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2015, 11:05:56 pm »
0

They don't universally apply to all cards.  Prophet Velen is less strictly better than War Golem due to Mind Control, but Dr. Boom isn't.

Just because Blizz wrote "lol, Murlocs" on the card doesn't mean you should look at the mechanics of what's happening differently.

Dr. Boom is still less strictly better than War Golem due to Thoughtsteal.

There is no reason to treat a specifically designed tech card differently from a specifically designed synergy.
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