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[DrHades]

I just finished this game and I am really upset.

When the game started I was thinking a lot whether go for DoubleJack, Chapel+Jack, Chapel+Nomad Camp or just pure Chapel. I was very confident that Chapel+Jack will be the best out of these (and very probably the very best thing on the board). But I lost. Was it a bad luck or did my opponent really had a better plan (trash only Coppers and use Ventures)? And what does simulators think about this game?

PS: Funny thing - this was a veto mode game and I vetoed Crossroad as the only village to slow down Chapel+Jack, because I wanted to go for Chapel+Minion. My opponent vetoed Minion 

[WanderingWinder]

Pretty sure doublejack is going to stomp here.

[Jorbles]

I don't think your opponent actually intended to trash only Coppers. Your opponent only drew her Chapel with an Estate once in the game and she trashed it (turn . That said Ventures are extremely strong with Chapels, but she only bought 2. I don't think it was the deciding factor. LadyFern is a good player, but I think she had a bit of luck on her side here. I imagine Jack has a 60/40 advantage here (maybe a little bit higher), but sometimes the better plan loses.

Also I should point out, you did break PPR on turn 12, but I think a Venture deck might deal with greening a bit better than a Jack deck so that might have been the right move.

[jonts26]

Jack decks do very well against greening, but maybe not quite as well as a dedicated venture deck. That said, your opponent did not build a dedicated venture deck. And as WanderingWinder pointed out, DoubleJack should beat Jack/Chapel pretty handily, and you should be able to simulate that to check.

I think this illustrates a larger point. Most people who read this forum know that chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game. But they tend to forget it's only because of how good it is for engine games. It's mediocre in big money games, losing to quite a few cards head to head. The reasoning is simple: spending turns doing nothing but trashing slows you down and you need some way to catch up. Usually this is with a big engine with multiple buys. A dedicated big money deck doesn't waste those first few precious turns trashing.

[Jorbles]

Jack decks do very well against greening, but maybe not quite as well as a dedicated venture deck. That said, your opponent did not build a dedicated venture deck. And as WanderingWinder pointed out, DoubleJack should beat Jack/Chapel pretty handily, and you should be able to simulate that to check.

I think this illustrates a larger point. Most people who read this forum know that chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game. But they tend to forget it's only because of how good it is for engine games. It's mediocre in big money games, losing to quite a few cards head to head. The reasoning is simple: spending turns doing nothing but trashing slows you down and you need some way to catch up. Usually this is with a big engine with multiple buys. A dedicated big money deck doesn't waste those first few precious turns trashing.

Confirmed. DoubleJack wins 62.5% of the time vs JackChapel.

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'JackChapel'
  author: 'Jorbles'
  requires: ["Jack of All Trades", "Chapel"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Jack of All Trades" if my.countInDeck("Jack of All Trades") < 1
    "Chapel" if my.countInDeck("Chapel") < 1
    "Silver"
  ]
}


[HiveMindEmulator]

I think this illustrates a larger point. Most people who read this forum know that chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game. But they tend to forget it's only because of how good it is for engine games. It's mediocre in big money games, losing to quite a few cards head to head. The reasoning is simple: spending turns doing nothing but trashing slows you down and you need some way to catch up. Usually this is with a big engine with multiple buys. A dedicated big money deck doesn't waste those first few precious turns trashing.

This. I'm pretty sure Jack/Silver opening into Venture beats everything here, and anything with chapel will not even be close.

[DrHades]

I think this illustrates a larger point. Most people who read this forum know that chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game. But they tend to forget it's only because of how good it is for engine games. It's mediocre in big money games, losing to quite a few cards head to head. The reasoning is simple: spending turns doing nothing but trashing slows you down and you need some way to catch up. Usually this is with a big engine with multiple buys. A dedicated big money deck doesn't waste those first few precious turns trashing.

This. I'm pretty sure Jack/Silver opening into Venture beats everything here, and anything with chapel will not even be close.

How much into Venture? Venture over Gold?

[jonts26]

I'd say no, but it might be close to a wash. Buying only ventures means each venture will find a copper/silver/or a venture. With jack your most likely option is going to be silver after a few shuffles, which is equivalent to gold. So the question is, is your venture more likely to hit another venture or a copper. Well in this short a game, it's going to be copper, in which case your venture will net you only $2 more than it will $4 or more.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Venture will definitely be worse than Gold early (only better if you hit a Gold or another Venture), and if it's a mirror, then the game will be fast enough that you probably won't get to the point where Venture is better often enough to matter. And if it's not a mirror, you probably win anyway.