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[aku_chi]

I'm pretty surprised that Haven isn't in the bottom 10.  I had it below Moat, Embargo, Vagrant, Scouting Party, and Quest.  In my experience, it doesn't change the game much.  Generally, it's slightly useful (better than Pearl Diver), but it rarely shines and it often hurts.  Moat and Embargo seem pretty underrated here.  +2 cards isn't so bad in a thin deck with a lot of villages, and the attack stopping is a significant upside on most boards.  Moat gets better in 3 and 4 player games, which should factor into the ranking, IMO.  I don't buy Embargo often, but it's impact on the game is significant (even if no-one buys it!).  It stops most combos in their tracks and rewards divergent strategies.  I'll admit that it is difficult to evaluate.  I also had Duchess higher: it makes it easier to grab Duchies earlier on a non-significant number of boards.  That's a larger impact than Pearl Diver or Herbalist usually have, IMO.

[LastFootnote]

Duchess is hard to rank... I'm guessing one of the main ways in which people ranked cards was by thinking "If I had to spend, what would I buy? And in this situation, the fact that you can get Duchess for free actually works against Duchess, even though it's an ability that makes Duchess better, not worse.

One can also ask "If I could have any in my hand to play right now, what do I wish that card were? And again, the ability to get Duchess for free isn't accounted for there either.

The fact that the cards/event rankings are divided by cost (or range of costs) encourages you to ask this sort of "which would I rather buy at this cost" method of comparison. Unfortunately, it's pretty flawed. Duchess is just one example of this; a lot of Events make absolutely no sense to rank using this criteria. "If you have $2, do you buy Courtyard or Borrow?" That's a nonsensical question because you are using Borrow to buy something else. Likewise with Alms, Ball, etc.

I think a better way to rank things is, if Player A has exclusive access to this card/event but player B has exclusive access to this other card/event, who has the advantage? This still isn't perfect because you have to ignore the interactions between the two cards (Lookout may beat Sea Hag, but that doesn't make it a stronger card across the board). But at least it makes sense to ask, "If Player A can't buy Borrow, but player B can't buy/gain Courtyard, who has the bigger disadvantage?"

[Awaclus]

I'm pretty surprised that Haven isn't in the bottom 10.  I had it below Moat, Embargo, Vagrant, Scouting Party, and Quest.  In my experience, it doesn't change the game much.  Generally, it's slightly useful (better than Pearl Diver), but it rarely shines and it often hurts.  Moat and Embargo seem pretty underrated here.  +2 cards isn't so bad in a thin deck with a lot of villages, and the attack stopping is a significant upside on most boards.  Moat gets better in 3 and 4 player games, which should factor into the ranking, IMO.  I don't buy Embargo often, but it's impact on the game is significant (even if no-one buys it!).  It stops most combos in their tracks and rewards divergent strategies.  I'll admit that it is difficult to evaluate.  I also had Duchess higher: it makes it easier to grab Duchies earlier on a non-significant number of boards.  That's a larger impact than Pearl Diver or Herbalist usually have, IMO.

Well, it's significantly useful. Pretty often, it makes a junk card miss the reshuffle, which is pretty good.

(Lookout may beat Sea Hag, but that doesn't make it a stronger card across the board).

That is true. It is a stronger card across the board for completely different reasons.

[LastFootnote]

(Lookout may beat Sea Hag, but that doesn't make it a stronger card across the board).

That is true. It is a stronger card across the board for completely different reasons.

Sure, I'm totally willing to believe that. But you get the idea.

[markusin]

My issue with Embargo is that it doesn't really help you unless someone already committed to a strategy that requires massing up a particular card like alt-vp. If you embargo the strongest kingdom card, then you can't get it without cursing yourself either, barring some exceptions like having a gainer or Watchtower. Your opponent can get those too though. It's often a prisoner's dilemma kind of thing when it comes to the decision of whether or not to embargo a key card pile.

I find that it's hard to get an asymmetric effect out of the Embargo token that leaves you in a better position. It can be used as a win-while-ahead card if you were faster to get your share of a key card and then embargo it. Even the Silver pile can do. If you can pull that off then the token is useful.

What's nice about Embargo is that it's a terminal +$2 for $2 that disappears from your deck after use. It helps a lot with 5/2 openings.

[LastFootnote]

I find that it's hard to get an asymmetric effect out of the Embargo token that leaves you in a better position. It can be used as a win-while-ahead card if you were faster to get your share of a key card and then embargo it. Even the Silver pile can do. If you can pull that off then the token is useful.

I find actually doing this nearly impossible, which is too bad. By the time I play Embargo, my opponent(s) nearly always have bought the card I wanted to block. As an Event (or an on-gain ability) it would work better. Maybe too much better, hard to say.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

[drsteelhammer]

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

This confuses me. Is that supposed to be a double negative? It looks like one to me.

[Mic Qsenoch]

It's probably just terrible writing! I mean that the embargoing is hard to use effectively/strategically.

[jsh357]

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

This confuses me. Is that supposed to be a double negative? It looks like one to me.

Just remove the adverb from the sentence and the meaning is clear; 'hardly' is in the sentence only to make room for edge cases.

[GendoIkari]

Yeah, the embargo part of Embargo doesn't hardly do anything at all. Though it sure does seem to trick a lot of people into thinking it does.

This confuses me. Is that supposed to be a double negative? It looks like one to me.

Just remove the adverb from the sentence and the meaning is clear; 'hardly' is in the sentence only to make room for edge cases.

Yes, but it can also be used like: "It hardly does anything", and the sentence has the same meaning.

[faust]

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?

Dude...I'm like half your age.

Hey, I'm not that old.

Stop saying I'm "that old".

[Roadrunner7671]

Once again...it wasn't me who put Duchess on the top!

So you like to be on top instead?

Dude...I'm like half your age.

Hey, I'm not that old.

I'm the youngest person on f.ds who has been active in the past ten minutes!

[theright555J]

I find that it's hard to get an asymmetric effect out of the Embargo token that leaves you in a better position. It can be used as a win-while-ahead card if you were faster to get your share of a key card and then embargo it. Even the Silver pile can do. If you can pull that off then the token is useful.

I've had some success Embargoing potion-cost cards when there is a viable non-Alchemy route available, poor or no trashing, and my opponent opens with a potion.  Especially effective with Familiar and Alchemist when those two are possibly skippable in a given kingdom.

[Beyond Awesome]

In general, Embargo is weak. I know I ranked it low. Even if my opponent successfully embargos a card I want, getting one curse is not that bad. Though, it is funny to watch the psychological effect with players, even good ones who won't buy the card they need just because it's embargoed.

Duchess is weak, but I believe I had Pearl Diver last. I mean, come on, unless you have tokens, or are buying it for Goons points, Pearl Diver is almost useless. My rank for last was Pearl Diver then Duchess then Secret Chamber.

I ranked Quest 26. Nowadays in Dominion with the engine-friendly environment that we mainly live in, Gold isn't that great of a card. I mean, it is okay, but not great. In slogs, the card is decent. I ranked Scouting Party just slightly higher at 23. Cycling is good, and it sure is better than being able to sometimes gain golds.

[Qvist]

Part 2

[Awaclus]

Duchess is weak, but I believe I had Pearl Diver last. I mean, come on, unless you have tokens, or are buying it for Goons points, Pearl Diver is almost useless.

It's almost useless, but not entirely useless, and it doesn't really hurt your deck either.

[luser]

I am more surprised that herbalist is ranked so low. Its +buy is more significant in engine than pearl diver for example.

As duchess she shines in rebuild games as you could get two basically for free and top-inspection is useful for you but not for opponent.

As embargo you need two conditions to make embargo part useful. First is that opponent is commited to some strategy, second that it requires him get 5+ cards from pile as getting only one curse isn't much noticable. That works mainly vs alchemist as embargoes one doesn't provide additional draw.

[Roadrunner7671]

Time to swoop in.

Guess who didn't put Traveling Fair first? Are you proud?

[drsteelhammer]

Funny, I have the biggest disagreement with the two cards that have the most deviation, I rated both of them quite a bit lower, can anybody jump to their defense?

I consider Alm not very strong at all. Sure, you open with it 90% of the time(rather it matters 90% of the time), but afterwards? It may be quite neat neat to get a four cost instead of a three cost some time, but a lot of the times there is a viable card to buy for less, too. And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Well maybe you can trash more rigoriously, but that's about it.

The same for borrow: It's probably ok to buy it occasionally, but beyond that? I don't really see how it's stronger than some of the cards you could have bought.

[Ampharos]

Funny, I have the biggest disagreement with the two cards that have the most deviation, I rated both of them quite a bit lower, can anybody jump to their defense?

I consider Alm not very strong at all. Sure, you open with it 90% of the time(rather it matters 90% of the time), but afterwards? It may be quite neat neat to get a four cost instead of a three cost some time, but a lot of the times there is a viable card to buy for less, too. And it treasure less decks it's a workshop that costs a buy instead of an action and you can not gain+play it, so that's not really great either.

Well maybe you can trash more rigoriously, but that's about it.

The same for borrow: It's probably ok to buy it occasionally, but beyond that? I don't really see how it's stronger than some of the cards you could have bought.

For me, Alms changes the game in a huge way, kind of like Chapel.  You could use the one of the same arguments for Chapel you did for Alms: you use it all the time at the beginning of the game and almost never later.  But having both players be able to start 4/4 or even 4/5?  And when your shuffle dumps all 3 estates on you on turn 3 without a worthwhile 2 on the board, no longer have you a wasted turn.  It's not so much that it's a top-tier card, but it just changes the way the game is played. 

Sure it's not useful that much later in the game, but the simple factor of how much it changes the game early is enough for me to rank it rather high.

[theright555J]

These cheap events really serve to mitigate the effects of shuffle luck, especially the nasty early game shuffle luck (bad opening split, golden sombrero, 4/4/no 5 on 2nd shuffle)...all those things that can so drastically cripple the more unlucky player. I think these events will go up in value quite a bit once Adventures is available online.

[LastFootnote]

Whoa, Coin of the Realm below Crossroads, huh? That doesn't seem right.

[Awaclus]

I haven't played a single game with Adventures (so I didn't actually rate any of the Adventures cards or events), but I think Borrow is pretty good. It happens quite often that you are exactly $1 short of whatever it is that you really want to buy. If it's your last turn, it doesn't even hurt you.

[Accatitippi]

Whoa, Coin of the Realm below Crossroads, huh? That doesn't seem right.

I think this might be an effect of many people not rating Adventures altogether. Percentage-wise most non adventurous cards will fare better than cards from Adventures, since Adventure density is higher at the top rather than at the bottom.
Am I making sense? I couldn't bother actually counting the missing cards to see if my assumption is right though.

Edit: I also don't know how Qvist conjures these numbers, so he might have adjusted for that.